213 réponses à ce sujet

[Anariel Theirin]

Madkipz wrote...

yes, yes you where. You can keep telling yourself that you killed loghain for your own reasons but fact remains that he gave you an ultimatum before you decided. Either kill loghain or he leaves.

I'll have to double check this just to be sure, but I'm pretty positive Alistair *only* gives you the ultimatum IF you suggest that you're considering letting Loghain live.  I made no such indication, as I never planned on letting him live.  Loghain kneeled down, said I earned his respect, and told me to do what I wanted with him.  I said to kill him, Riordan objected, and I told Riordan too bad.  The end.

[TobiTobsen]

The Angry One wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

I will have to start another DAO playthrough to let him live once. Just have to harden Alistair so he can still become king. I'm interested what he has to say in the camp.

If you have Return to Ostagar you have got to save it until you can take Loghain, his lines there are great, as well as his arguments with Wynne.

Ah, okay. I thought that he would have some interesting dialogue there. Thanks for the advice.

[The Angry One]

Plaintiff wrote...

That's a matter of opinion. I would rather have the opportunity to fight for my freedom than be oppressed under a broken system and have no recourse because everyone in power believes my mere existence is a sin. Anders has succeeded in freeing the mages; they are free to fight back, for starters.

And what about the mages who don't want to fight?
What about the mages who are in moderate circles living comfortably?
They have no say in this whatsoever? Only the Resolutionists matter?

Nice tyranny of the minority there.

Anders is to blame for what the templars do in response to his actions? If someone hits me am I not responsible for my decision to hit him back? If provocation absolves individuals of blame, I could argue that Meredith is responsible for the war because she provoked Anders into action with her blatant tyranny. I could argue that Elthina is responsible for implicitly endorsing Meredith's actions by failing to act. I could argue that the Chantry as a whole brought it on themselves for oppressing mages in the first place.

He is to blame, because he KNOWS for sure what they will do.
He is deliberately instigating it.

[Anariel Theirin]

PantheraOnca wrote...

I don't remember the exact order, but riordan suggests Joining Loghain and then Alistar flips out right? Because as soon as Riordan made that suggestion I'm pretty sure I was like "**** no, **** has to die. **** him" and then Alistar goes and makes an ultimatum.

Letting Loghain live never came in to my mind, regardless of how Alistar reacted.


Edit: Either you keep reading this thread, or you kill yourself. Having read this ultimatum means you're either killing yourself now or have kept reading the thread.

Just because someone gives you an ultimatum doesn't mean you choose your actions based on it.

Yes, exactly.  My Warden (and myself!) are *not* the type to give in to ultimatums.  If anything, we're the type more likely to do the exact opposite just to spite the person.  

[Cutlass Jack]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders has succeeded in freeing the mages; they are free to fight back, for starters.

No the mages are forced to fight back or die. They didn't get any more choice in the matter than they did prior. Which makes Anders a hypocrite. He took away any freedom of choice they could have had.

The wisest person on this subject was the Saarebas when you try to force freedom upon him.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 avril 2011 - 06:48 .

[PantheraOnca]

Anariel Theirin wrote...

Yes, exactly.  My Warden (and myself!) are *not* the type to give in to ultimatums.  If anything, we're the type more likely to do the exact opposite just to spite the person.  

I try to live life by the following axiom:

Spite makes Right.

[Plaintiff]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah you know what? Even Loghain thinking every Orlesian is out to get him is more rational than Anders.
Anders is an abomination driven by hatred and vindictiveness, he's going to impose his arrogant will on all mages whether they like it or not by murdering innocents. He's completely deranged. Loghain at least has some semblance of lucidity even if his actions were suspect.

Hatred and vindictiveness are normal, human emotions, and are not indicative of insanity.

Anders is not an "Abomination" in the usual sense of the term. Typically, abominations are characterized by a lack of free will.  The demon takes over the host's mind completely. Wynne was not an abomination becasue she still possessed her free will. Anders maintains his as well for the most part and even says when questioned that he blew up the Chantry of his own volition, not at Justice's bidding.

Nor is he deranged. He exhibits no signs of mental illness whatsoever. The voice in his head is very much real.

[b09boy]

Plaintiff wrote...
Loghain's supposed "strategic insight" hasn't exactly done him any favours. All his plans fail, in fact, and he was ignoring the true threat of the Blight to begin with. And if you succeed in the Landsmeet, all the nobles are united against Loghain anyway, so morale is hardly an issue. If anything, the knowledge that a son of Maric still lives is going to be more of a morale boost than allowing a traitor and failure to join the ranks of the Grey Wardens.

Yes, let's take a look at his insights and plans.

1) Abandoning Cailan.  Cailan was allowing Orlesians to march in Fereldan, which they've in the past used to force an occupation.  As well, he was planning on wedding Celeste, which would have caused an Orlesian occupation by default and caused a civil war.  Cailan's death, like it or not, was a very good thing for Fereldan.

2) Abandoning King's army and Grey Wardens.  First, remember that Loghain had no way of knowing that this was a blight.  There was no archdemon, no blight in century, and official word was that the last blight would be just that.  He had no way to know Grey Wardens actually sense the blight, nor that they were quite literally required to end one even if it was a blight.  With that in mind, abanding the armies probably saved the majority of Fereldan's troops.  How do I know this?
http://i673.photobuc...pg?t=1302287955
That is the darkspawn horde at Ostagar, extending into the mountains beyond what the eye can see even at a high vantage point.  The battle was not winnable.

3) Poisoning Eamon.  Loghain knew civil war would come if Cailan continued his current course, which he was.  He also knew Eamon is a tool - the man cares more about the bloodline than who actually sits the throne - and would thus be a huge opponent and threat to Fereldan's independence if war came.  So he incapcitated him.  Note: incapacitated, not tried to kill.  This has been stated by Gaider before.  Remember that elf at Redcliffe?  He was there to report if Eamon was to take a turn for the worse.  But then things went south.  There was no way to know Connor would randomly become an abomination, or that a legend akin to the Holy Grail would be suddenly found and used to cure Eamon.  These are events so random and sudden as to be outside of logical planning or control.

4) Aligning with Uldred to get the mages help against the blight.  A pretty good idea, really.  Hell, the Warden does much the same thing.  Problem?  Uldred suddenly loses control and turns into an abomination.  So, what, he should have planned for a mage insurrection?

5) Hiring assassins against the Warden.  Well duh.  Wardens are supposed to be some of the most skilled figters in the world and suddenly they oppose him.  Not only that, but they're actively working against him and furthering the civil war.  Short of marching an army to meet the party, not only is it completely reasonable and even warranted for him to take the action he does, he does everything logically possible.  That the Warden survives is just a testimate to his/her skill.

6) Calling for the dwarves to help against the blight.  Like he really could have predicted or planned for Endrin dying and a war of succession in Orzammar which keep he or his men from even entering the city, much less discuss an alliance.

Ultimately, Loghain's beginning goal succeeded.  He did prevent an Orlesian occupation.  How do we know this?  Well aside from Cailan planning on joining with Celeste which would have effectively made the two countries one, especially if they have a child, there's the whole brink of war deal in DA2 because SURPRISE, Orlais wants Fereldan after all!  Who ever could have predicted such a thing.

[TobiTobsen]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah you know what? Even Loghain thinking every Orlesian is out to get him is more rational than Anders.
Anders is an abomination driven by hatred and vindictiveness, he's going to impose his arrogant will on all mages whether they like it or not by murdering innocents. He's completely deranged. Loghain at least has some semblance of lucidity even if his actions were suspect.

Hatred and vindictiveness are normal, human emotions, and are not indicative of insanity.

Anders is not an "Abomination" in the usual sense of the term. Typically, abominations are characterized by a lack of free will.  The demon takes over the host's mind completely. Wynne was not an abomination becasue she still possessed her free will. Anders maintains his as well for the most part and even says when questioned that he blew up the Chantry of his own volition, not at Justice's bidding.

Nor is he deranged. He exhibits no signs of mental illness whatsoever. The voice in his head is very much real.

Next playthrough build up your rivalry with him. He clearly states that he is loosing the control more and more. He frequently has blackouts and can't remember what he has done. Even the Codex says that he is paranoid and dangerous.

[errant_knight]

I think Alistair and Sebastian's views are very similar, but it might be quite different for the PC. Anders isn't strictly necessary in the way Grey Wardens were, and while my feeling is that Loghain's crimes deserved death, and not in a way that gave him honor, he was no abomination. That's a whole other level of bad. I don't see much reason for a PC to spare Anders that isn't strictly personal. But the set up--good guy companion demanding punishment by death, that's the same. Of course, this time the bad guy is someone you might have a connection to, not the known enemy.

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[The Angry One]

Plaintiff wrote...

Hatred and vindictiveness are normal, human emotions, and are not indicative of insanity.

They are if that's all that drives you.

Anders is not an "Abomination" in the usual sense of the term. Typically, abominations are characterized by a lack of free will.  The demon takes over the host's mind completely. Wynne was not an abomination becasue she still possessed her free will. Anders maintains his as well for the most part and even says when questioned that he blew up the Chantry of his own volition, not at Justice's bidding.

Nor is he deranged. He exhibits no signs of mental illness whatsoever. The voice in his head is very much real.

The definition of an abomination is a mortal host merged with a fade being.
Besides which, Anders' personality has been altered by the merger, both Anders and Justice have been corrupted and driven insane.

Modifié par The Angry One, 08 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Both did morally abhorrent things that they believed were necessary based on their past experiences.

[Plaintiff]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders has succeeded in freeing the mages; they are free to fight back, for starters.

No the mages are forced to fight back or die. They didn't get any more choice in the matter than they did prior. Which makes Anders a hypocrite. He took away any freedom of choice they could have had.

The wisest person on this subject was the Saarebas when you try to force freedom upon him.

HAHAHAHAHA-No. A decision made as the result of intense indoctrination and brainwashing is not a decision at all. Saarebas kills himself because the Qun expressly forbids him from considering other options.

Did I say the Circle mages were only free to fight back? No. They are also free to run if they choose, or hide and live normal lives, or group together and form a new, self-goverened order, and defend it from attackers.

Regardless of risk, I would consider their lot to be substantially improved. They had no power, no leverage. If they even spoke out against Meredith they were effectively lobotmized. Other circles may be better, but there's no proof of that as yet.

In any case, whether the mages are satisfied with their lot or not, it doesn't change the fact that the Circle is a gross injustice and needs to be eradicated. Imprisoning someone merely for an aspect of their existence that they cannot help goes against basic human rights. Even if they didn't have to put up with the extra crap from the Chantry and the Templars, it's flat-out wrong, and only drastic action was going to change it.

[Cutlass Jack]

Removal of choice is not a choice no matter how you try to butter it up. Anders was exactly as guilty of it as the Templars were. Every death caused by forcing them to war, every mage forced to give into blood magic or die. That's all squarely on his shoulders. He forced the mages into proving the Templars right. He didn't help their lot at all. Instead He removed all sympathy for their plight.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 avril 2011 - 07:23 .

[Plaintiff]

The Angry One wrote...

They are if that's all that drives you.

Which is hardly the case here. When he's not with Hawke, Anders spends his days healing the sick or wounded, and his nights helping mages who wish to escape the circle. These actions are not driven by hatred. His attempt to rescue Karl was not driven by hatred. His plan to search for evidence of the "Tranquil Solution" was not driven by hatred. Very few of his actions, if any, are driven by hatred. He's angry, and he has a right to be, but that is not the same thing.

The definition of an abomination is a mortal host merged with a fade being.
Besides which, Anders' personality has been altered by the merger, both Anders and Justice have been corrupted and driven insane.

Hence why I used the qualifier "typically". Anders is not a typical abomination, the differences are very obvious.

People's personalities change, that is not an indicator of insanity either. I don't behave the same way that I did when I was fifteen. I don't behave the same way that I did even six months ago. I am not insane. Anders did not change immediatly either. That he even agreed to let Justice inside him in the first place shows that his character had already gone through significant change without Justice's help. His sober personality is more than likely a result of his time with the Wardens, and his negative experiences with them.

Insanity is defined as a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. It is not abnormal to be enraged when witnessing abuse and blatant prejudice.

[KJandrew]

Anders is going to be responsible for the deaths of a lot more innocents than Loghain.
Commoners will be killed in the fighting. Countries will have to send their armies to put down large groups of dangerous mages, which means soldiers who are just following their King/Queen's orders.
Mages who were perfectly happy in the circle will be forced to fight or be killed.

[Plaintiff]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Removal of choice is not a choice no matter how you try to butter it up. Anders was exactly as guilty of it as the Templars were. Every death caused by forcing them to war, every mage forced to give into blood magic or die. That's all squarely on his shoulders. He forced the mages into proving the Templars right. He didn't help their lot at all. Instead He removed all sympathy for their plight.

Pfft. "Symapthy" wasn't doing them much good. Elthina felt "sympathy" and did jack-all to make the situation more bearable. I'm not denying that he's to blame for forcing conflict, but the simple fact is that conflict was needed. The way mages were treated in Kirkwall was unconscienable. heck the way mages are treated everywhere is unconscienable. Whether or not they got treated "well" is a moot point, everything about the way the Circles are run is highly immoral, and the potential for abuse is obvious.

Who says they have to resort to blood magic? Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. Maybe the uneducated peasants and bigoted templars and biased priestesses feel more justified in their ignorant views. But Anders didn't do it for their benefit. What he showed mages was that they could fight back, without resorting to blood magic or demonic aid. Who needs sympathy when they're finally empowered to take the freedom they inherently deserve as humans and elves, with force if necessary?

[PantheraOnca]

b09boy wrote...

Yes, let's take a look at his insights and plans.

Yes. Let's.

1) Abandoning Cailan.  Cailan was allowing Orlesians to march in Fereldan, which they've in the past used to force an occupation.  As well, he was planning on wedding Celeste, which would have caused an Orlesian occupation by default and caused a civil war.  Cailan's death, like it or not, was a very good thing for Fereldan.

Allowing soon-to-be-allies-by-royal-marriage is not a bad idea. Marrying Celeste would not have caused an Orlesian occupation by default. If they are married, a few token forces from each side might head to the other, but there's not reason for Chevaliers to get involved when you have the monarch of a realm, with its own forces, voluntarily marrying your monarch, and reducing your number of potential national enemies by one.

2) Abandoning King's army and Grey Wardens.  First, remember that Loghain had no way of knowing that this was a blight.  There was no archdemon, no blight in century, and official word was that the last blight would be just that.  He had no way to know Grey Wardens actually sense the blight, nor that they were quite literally required to end one even if it was a blight.  With that in mind, abanding the armies probably saved the majority of Fereldan's troops.  How do I know this?
http://i673.photobuc...pg?t=1302287955
That is the darkspawn horde at Ostagar, extending into the mountains beyond what the eye can see even at a high vantage point.  The battle was not winnable.

Loghain had every way of knowing it was a blight. The Grey Wardens say so. The fact that there hadn't been a blight in centuries should have been setting off his paranoia that the time for a blight was ripe. No one who can count to 7 thought the last blight was the Last Blight. There had only been 4 archdemons out of a potential 7. Do the math.

The battle was totally winnable. Loghain is a coward and a schemer.

3) Poisoning Eamon.  Loghain knew civil war would come if Cailan continued his current course, which he was.  He also knew Eamon is a tool - the man cares more about the bloodline than who actually sits the throne - and would thus be a huge opponent and threat to Fereldan's independence if war came.  So he incapcitated him.  Note: incapacitated, not tried to kill.  This has been stated by Gaider before.  Remember that elf at Redcliffe?  He was there to report if Eamon was to take a turn for the worse.  But then things went south.  There was no way to know Connor would randomly become an abomination, or that a legend akin to the Holy Grail would be suddenly found and used to cure Eamon.  These are events so random and sudden as to be outside of logical planning or control.

Eamon is a reasonable man. I don't even know where you get the "tool" impression from. Did you never get Alistar's mother's necklace or whatever it was from redcliffe? The fact that Eamon had it peiced back together does not scream "tool" to me.

4) Aligning with Uldred to get the mages help against the blight.  A pretty good idea, really.  Hell, the Warden does much the same thing.  Problem?  Uldred suddenly loses control and turns into an abomination.  So, what, he should have planned for a mage insurrection?

I don't hold this against Loghain.

5) Hiring assassins against the Warden.  Well duh.  Wardens are supposed to be some of the most skilled figters in the world and suddenly they oppose him.  Not only that, but they're actively working against him and furthering the civil war.  Short of marching an army to meet the party, not only is it completely reasonable and even warranted for him to take the action he does, he does everything logically possible.  That the Warden survives is just a testimate to his/her skill.

They're working against him and "furthering" a civil war that Loghain started in the first place.

6) Calling for the dwarves to help against the blight.  Like he really could have predicted or planned for Endrin dying and a war of succession in Orzammar which keep he or his men from even entering the city, much less discuss an alliance.

No problem here.

Ultimately, Loghain's beginning goal succeeded.  He did prevent an Orlesian occupation.  How do we know this?  Well aside from Cailan planning on joining with Celeste which would have effectively made the two countries one, especially if they have a child, there's the whole brink of war deal in DA2 because SURPRISE, Orlais wants Fereldan after all!  Who ever could have predicted such a thing.

So some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would be a joint nation.

[The Angry One]

PantheraOnca wrote...

So some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would be a joint nation.

A joint nation ruled from Val Royeaux.
This would be popular with your average Ferelden how?

[Plaintiff]

The Angry One wrote...

And what about the mages who don't want to fight?
What about the mages who are in moderate circles living comfortably?
They have no say in this whatsoever? Only the Resolutionists matter?

Nice tyranny of the minority there.

The mages who were taken from their parents and know no other life beyond that of the Circle? The mages who succumb to the belief that their powers are a curse? The ones who don't know any better? Those mages?

What about all those women who didn't want the vote, or jobs, and were happy puttering around the kitchen all day, fixin' sammiches for the menfolk?

He is to blame, because he KNOWS for sure what they will do.
He is deliberately instigating it.

That does not absolve the templars. In fact, they are more to blame than he is because a rational person would recognise the circle mages are not involved. The fact that Anders knows Meredith will turn on the Circle and declare the Right of Annulment speaks volumes of her instability, but nothing of hismmental state at all. If anything, it indicates precognitive abilities that would rival Flemeth's.

[The Angry One]

Plaintiff wrote...

The mages who were taken from their parents and know no other life beyond that of the Circle? The mages who succumb to the belief that their powers are a curse? The ones who don't know any better? Those mages?

Yes, you know, the ones who don't want to fight.

What about all those women who didn't want the vote, or jobs, and were happy puttering around the kitchen all day, fixin' sammiches for the menfolk?

Last I heard women do not, on average have a natural abilitity to shoot fireballs from our hands.
And this is a silly comparison - does the right to vote or not being treated as property for no good reason lead to continent wide war where everyone you're trying to free is going to DIE?

That does not absolve the templars. In fact, they are more to blame than he is because a rational person would recognise the circle mages are not involved. The fact that Anders knows Meredith will turn on the Circle and declare the Right of Annulment speaks volumes of her instability, but nothing of hismmental state at all. If anything, it indicates precognitive abilities that would rival Flemeth's.

Who said it absolves them of anything?
It simply makes Anders guilty of every single death in the war he started.

[Plaintiff]

The Angry One wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

So some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would be a joint nation.

A joint nation ruled from Val Royeaux.
This would be popular with your average Ferelden how?

Because the popular opinion is always the right one.

The location of the throne is irrelevent, what matters is how the country is ruled. Whatever faults people may think he had, Cailan cared about Ferelden. he laid down his life for it and if this marriage alliance had been formed, he would've made sure its interests were represented.

[Arppis]

Oh, come on. There is only one answer here. No need to debate it so much. He did something terrible, he needs to be punished. Only punishment is to murderfy. Go do it.

[Madkipz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Removal of choice is not a choice no matter how you try to butter it up. Anders was exactly as guilty of it as the Templars were. Every death caused by forcing them to war, every mage forced to give into blood magic or die. That's all squarely on his shoulders. He forced the mages into proving the Templars right. He didn't help their lot at all. Instead He removed all sympathy for their plight.

Pfft. "Symapthy" wasn't doing them much good. Elthina felt "sympathy" and did jack-all to make the situation more bearable. I'm not denying that he's to blame for forcing conflict, but the simple fact is that conflict was needed. The way mages were treated in Kirkwall was unconscienable. heck the way mages are treated everywhere is unconscienable. Whether or not they got treated "well" is a moot point, everything about the way the Circles are run is highly immoral, and the potential for abuse is obvious.

Who says they have to resort to blood magic? Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. Maybe the uneducated peasants and bigoted templars and biased priestesses feel more justified in their ignorant views. But Anders didn't do it for their benefit. What he showed mages was that they could fight back, without resorting to blood magic or demonic aid. Who needs sympathy when they're finally empowered to take the freedom they inherently deserve as humans and elves, with force if necessary?

If mages where being abused they should appeal to the divine or the grand cleric. You dont see much appealing being done. What Orsino does is just bicker, whine and resist like an angry child who has lost his candy while blood mages all around are turning into abominations.

A real appeal would be to send all the abuse victims to the grand cleric in templar escorte to ask for the makers blessings from the Grand Cleric herself. Have them recite what templars have done, and then pray to the maker.  Strip them down, show the abuses for all to see, pray to the maker and go back to your circle rooms. Eventually she would have heard, seen and had enough.

Once enough is seen everyone not abusing mages would act against Meredith out of sympathy. The excuse of "BUT BUT BLOODMAGES AND ABOMINATIOTNS?" would not hold water if mages went about resisting this in a non violent non cryface approach.

As is evident though the majority turn into abominations and resort to blood magic when push becomes shove.
All Anders has accomplished is that the circles will be wiped out and the general populace will hate mages even more.

Plaintiff wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

So
some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to
everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there
would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would
be a joint nation.

A joint nation ruled from Val Royeaux.
This would be popular with your average Ferelden how?

Because the popular opinion is always the right one.

The
location of the throne is irrelevent, what matters is how the country
is ruled. Whatever faults people may think he had, Cailan cared about
Ferelden. he laid down his life for it and if this marriage alliance had
been formed, he would've made sure its interests were
represented.

He would remain blissfully ignorant, as he always is. He knows nothing of elves and dwarves. He sits home and listens to tales of the grey wardens while Anora rules. DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THIS MAN WOULD CARE IF HIS LANDS WHERE INFESTED WITH CHEVALIERS AND ORLESIAN LORDS?
didnt think so.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 08:01 .

[Obadiah]

Loghain was a Teyrn in charge of the troops he was ordering (as wrong as his betrayal was) and had the authority to give those orders. Anders went off and did what he did as a lone terrorist/freedom fighter. In that sense they are different.

In the sense that they both perform acts that are counter to expectations with horrific consequences in pursuit of what they consider the greater good, they are similar.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 avril 2011 - 08:08 .