213 réponses à ce sujet

[PantheraOnca]

The Angry One wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

So some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would be a joint nation.

A joint nation ruled from Val Royeaux.
This would be popular with your average Ferelden how?

I don't think that would be the case. I suspect it wouldn't be. As long as Chevaliers weren't all-up-ins Ferelden business I imagine the average Ferelden wouldn't care. And I think it would be unwise, and I think Celeste would understand it to be so, for anything more than a token Chevalier force to remain in Ferelden for an extended period of time.

[Wulfram]

A big difference for me is the moment. With Loghain it's a long time since Ostagar, and you've beaten him. With Anders, the choice comes at one of the darkest and bitterest moments in the game, when his action has forced you to either to fight the war he wanted you to fight, or to become complicit in a terrible atrocity.

[b09boy]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Allowing soon-to-be-allies-by-royal-marriage is not a bad idea. Marrying Celeste would not have caused an Orlesian occupation by default. If they are married, a few token forces from each side might head to the other, but there's not reason for Chevaliers to get involved when you have the monarch of a realm, with its own forces, voluntarily marrying your monarch, and reducing your number of potential national enemies by one.

This would have caused a civil war.  Fereldan is ruled largely by people who grew up during the occupation and in some cases actively deposed it.  More, a marraige would have unified the two nations, which Fereldens don't want.  Otherwise they wouldn't have driven out the Orlesians.

Loghain had every way of knowing it was a blight. The Grey Wardens say so. The fact that there hadn't been a blight in centuries should have been setting off his paranoia that the time for a blight was ripe. No one who can count to 7 thought the last blight was the Last Blight. There had only been 4 archdemons out of a potential 7. Do the math.

Except the Chantry TOLD everyone it was the last blight.  It had been CENTURIES since the previous blight, much longer between another other.  More, there was no archdemon.  Why should he trust the Grey Wardens by default?  He has no way of knowing they can sense the darkspawn.

The battle was totally winnable. Loghain is a coward and a schemer.

I like how in your blind hatred you ignore the massive horde extending beyond visibility.

Eamon is a reasonable man. I don't even know where you get the "tool" impression from. Did you never get Alistar's mother's necklace or whatever it was from redcliffe? The fact that Eamon had it peiced back together does not scream "tool" to me.

Eamon cares more about the blood on the throne than who sits on the throne.  Ability has nothing to do with it, he is loyal to blood first and foremost.

They're working against him and "furthering" a civil war that Loghain started in the first place.

And which would have TAKEN PLACE ANYWAY due to Cailan's naivete.

So some people in some country want to control another country. Welcome to everywhere. If Cailan and Celeste were alive and married now, there would be no war rumblings between Ferelden and Orlais because it would be a joint nation.

Which Fereldan's don't want and would have caused a war over.  They only just drove out the Orlesians.  What do you think they would do to a king who brings them back in?

[Cutlass Jack]

Plaintiff wrote...

Pfft. "Symapthy" wasn't doing them much good. Elthina felt "sympathy" and did jack-all to make the situation more bearable. I'm not denying that he's to blame for forcing conflict, but the simple fact is that conflict was needed. The way mages were treated in Kirkwall was unconscienable. heck the way mages are treated everywhere is unconscienable. Whether or not they got treated "well" is a moot point, everything about the way the Circles are run is highly immoral, and the potential for abuse is obvious.

Who says they have to resort to blood magic? Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. Maybe the uneducated peasants and bigoted templars and biased priestesses feel more justified in their ignorant views. But Anders didn't do it for their benefit. What he showed mages was that they could fight back, without resorting to blood magic or demonic aid. Who needs sympathy when they're finally empowered to take the freedom they inherently deserve as humans and elves, with force if necessary?

Anders also says when you take his Justice quest that he's not much of an example when he's exactly the thing everyone fears. And without Blood magic how would the average mage hope to survive against lyrium infused warriors trained specifically to defeat them? Not everyone is a companion level magical hypocrite empowered by a Spirit.

Elthina's sympathy is why she kept neutral and didn't just automatically take Meredith's side. You can't for a moment say she did nothing, because the second she was dead: Bam! Annulment time. Anders did Meredith a favor when he killed her. He removed the one obstacle in her way.

If Anders had worked harder to build sympathy among non-mages instead of destroying it, he could have fixed the broken system from within. Instead he threw away years of goodwill he built helping people in his clinic by killing the one sympathetic person of power in the Chantry. Instead of the more deserving Meredith.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 08 avril 2011 - 08:07 .

[Plaintiff]

The Angry One wrote...
Yes, you know, the ones who don't want to fight.

If they can't see why they should be fighting, then that sucks for them I guess.

Last I heard women do not, on average have a natural abilitity to shoot fireballs from our hands.

Your point? Everyone has a talent. We do not punish people for things they might do.

And this is a silly comparison - does the right to vote or not being treated as property for no good reason lead to continent wide war where everyone you're trying to free is going to DIE?

Have you not picked up a history book like, ever? Plenty have people have died for the right to vote. Certainly enough to make up the entire population of Thedas. 

I love how you point out that mages can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips and then turn around and assume they're going to lose the war. I'd imagine the people with the power that "allows for abuses beyond the scope of mortals" would kind of have the upper hand.

Either they're too dangerous to be free, or they're  too weak to hold their own. You can't have it both ways. Decide which stance you're going to take and stick to it.

Who said it absolves them of anything?
It simply makes Anders guilty of every single death in the war he started.

You just did. If Anders is guilty, then nobody else is. You don't even acknowledge that there were other contributing factors, or that the situation was far from perfect and tensions had been boiling over for decades. According to you it's all Anders' fault and everybody else gets off scot-free because he totally started it and the mages and templars were like totes BFFs before he came along and ruined it like a big ruiner who ruins things.

[Plaintiff]

Gah. Doublepost.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 08 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I can see parallels to it.

[The Angry One]

Plaintiff wrote...

If they can't see why they should be fighting, then that sucks for them I guess.

Why should, say, the Ferelden circle fight?
What exactly was so terrible there? Not every circle is a center of crazy like the Gallows.

Your point? Everyone has a talent. We do not punish people for things they might do.

So they should be completely unregulated? Because that's what Anders wants.

Have you not picked up a history book like, ever? Plenty have people have died for the right to vote. Certainly enough to make up the entire population of Thedas.

I was referring to your comparison directly.
Moreover, the people who died for the right to vote chose to do so. Anders REMOVED that choice.

I love how you point out that mages can shoot fireballs out of their fingertips and then turn around and assume they're going to lose the war. I'd imagine the people with the power that "allows for abuses beyond the scope of mortals" would kind of have the upper hand.

Have you forgotten how mages fall to demons in desperation, as happens 99% of the time in DA2?
They're fighting not only the rest of Thedas, but themselves.

Either they're too dangerous to be free, or they're  too weak to hold their own. You can't have it both ways. Decide which stance you're going to take and stick to it.

That's the thing about mages in DA. They are both.

You just did. If Anders is guilty, then nobody else is. You don't even acknowledge that there were other contributing factors, or that the situation was far from perfect and tensions had been boiling over for decades. According to you it's all Anders' fault and everybody else gets off scot-free because he totally started it and the mages and templars were like totes BFFs before he came along and ruined it like a big ruiner who ruins things.

Anders is guilty of instigating it and being fully aware of the consequences. If you can't understand that, it's not my problem.

[Madkipz]

Either they're too dangerous to be free, or they're  too weak to hold their own. You can't have it both ways. Decide which stance you're going to take and stick to it.

They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

If Anders is guilty, then nobody else is. You don't even acknowledge
that there were other contributing factors, or that the situation was
far from perfect and tensions had been boiling over for decades.
According to you it's all Anders' fault and everybody else gets off
scot-free because he totally started it and the mages and templars were
like totes BFFs before he came along and ruined it like a big ruiner who
ruins things.

Anders is guilty of causing Meredith to annull the circle, he is guilty of starting the whole thing and everything everybody does as a result of this war.

This does not mean those who actually perform the acts are absolved from the same guilt.

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[PantheraOnca]

b09, they didn't want to be ruled by orlais. If their king marries the orlaisian empress, they are as much ruling orlais as they are ruling ferelden.

I do not believe it would have caused a civil war. a victorious and beloved king is very hard to rebel against, even if he makes a judgement call you don't agree with.

If the battle was unwinnable, it would have been the superior decision to send scouts back to denerim/etc to confirm it is a blight, and have your men die on the field than to cause a civil war while the darkspawn gain numbers. he knew what he was doing was wrong. that's why he lied about what happened.

if loghain didn't cause a schism in ferelden, they would have been able to rally much quicker and repel the darkspawn sooner than they did.

Additionally, the darkspawn are capable of breaking, a cavalry charge or flanking is just the thing to cause that. Get whatever was launching the stones onto the walkway (ogres? siege weaponry of some kind?) to stop firing, and mages can let loose without fear of reprisal. That alone would turn the tide.

[Anariel Theirin]

I was under the impression that they almost *won* the battle at Ostagar at the point in time when Loghain retreated? Am I imagining things? Didn't somebody say this at some point? If this is the truth, then if Loghain hadn't retreated, they would almost certainly have won the battle.

[Plaintiff]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Anders also says when you take his Justice quest that he's not much of an example when he's exactly the thing everyone fears. And without Blood magic how would the average mage hope to survive against lyrium infused warriors trained specifically to defeat them? Not everyone is a companion level magical hypocrite empowered by a Spirit.

Elthina's sympathy is why she kept neutral and didn't just automatically take Meredith's side. You can't for a moment say she did nothing, because the second she was dead: Bam! Annulment time. Anders did Meredith a favor when he killed her. He removed the one obstacle in her way.

If Anders had worked harder to build sympathy among non-mages instead of destroying it, he could have fixed the broken system from within. Instead he threw away years of goodwill he built helping people in his clinic by killing the one sympathetic person of power in the Chantry. Instead of the more deserving Meredith.

Morrigan and Bethany and Finn and Velanna are not possessed, nor are they blood mages, all are capable of handling themselves, and only Finn is a Circle Mage. Morrigan and Bethany get to take out templars on a regular basis, even. If the "average mage" is weak it's because the Circle purposefully keeps them that way. Just another reason why it should be disbanded: it can't even train its mages properly.

If Elthina truly felt sympathetic and wasn't merely paying simpering lipservice, she could've had Meredith removed and someone more moderate put in her place. Elthina was in a position of pwer to drastically improve things for the Kirkwall mages (not nearly enough, but it would've been a substantial change nontheless). Instead, she chooses to sit back with her thumb up her ass. She didn't do anything. Okay, so her mere existence prevents Meredith from going openly bat****. Barely. But everytime Orsino and Meredith show up on her doorstep, she tells them to "go home and cool down". Orsino is forced to raise his BS tolerance level, Meredith doesn't end up answering to anybody and she just continues treating the mages like **** until the next blowup, when it starts all over again. Meredith is already tranquilizing mages when she shouldn't have been and Elthina didn't step in even at this gross abuse of power. Elthina can claim to be "neutral" until the cows come home, but the oppressed mages are not going to appreciate her neutrality, and nor should they. The right course of action is obvious.

How hard does Anders have to work? How long will it take? Months? Years? Is there any guarantee that this course of action will see his goals met in his lifetime? Hell no! After seven goddamn years of healing the sick, the sympathy he garners isn't even enough to protect him on a personal level. He tells Hawke that the templars have been hanging around, watching and harrassing him. Sympathy does not protect Anders, Hawke does.

[Atmosfear3]

Anders was doomed from the second the chantry blew up. If Hawke didn't kill him then the templars would and maybe even the mages too for putting them in that predicament. Even the normal populace would lynch him after seeing the Grand Cleric being slain by magic.

[AshenEndymion]

PantheraOnca wrote...

b09, they didn't want to be ruled by orlais. If their king marries the orlaisian empress, they are as much ruling orlais as they are ruling ferelden.

I do not believe it would have caused a civil war. a victorious and beloved king is very hard to rebel against, even if he makes a judgement call you don't agree with.

Hypothetically... If the King of Ferelden marries the Queen of Orlais, and afterwards, the King of Ferelden dies, who rules Ferelden?  Orlais?  Or is a new King of Feredled appointed?  If they had a child, things might have been different... but you can be damned sure that Orlais would not have been ruled by a Ferelden if Queen Celes had died after the hypothetical marraige....

Civil wars have been started over less... and who rules over whom is one of the biggest reason for it.  The King of Ferelden only has his position because the Banns, Arls, and Teyrns swear fealty to him.  If he does something that they do not like, they don't have to maintain said fealty....

[Deified Data]

I don't buy into the whole "they did it for their people" thing. While they may have not been complete monsters (with the possible exception of Anders, via Vengeance), both were hopelessly twisted by blind ambition and hatred. Killing them both is never a hard decision for me, though Anders makes it harder by saying he welcomes becoming a martyr.

[Plaintiff]

Madkipz wrote...
They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

Oh really? You've been to Tevinter, have you? Seen the mages for yourself? You're not just making sweeping assumptions based on the word of say, an extremely biased elf with magical amnesia?

Of all the mages you've ever had in your party, only Merrill and possibly mage-Warden have ever made a deal with a demon or used blood magic (and Merrill barely counts). Yet they are all perfectly capable of kicking templar ass. Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. In fact, he openly abhors blood magic. You could argue that he has Justice, but that's not the same thing and doesn't really make him noticeably stronger than any other mage. There is no reason to assume that a normal, non-party mage wouldn't be just as capable.

[KJandrew]

If Cailan had married Ceilene and the Bannorn didn't rebel straight away they probably would in the future. Any child that inherits both thrones will have been born and raised in Val Royeux. And i'm not sure if the Banns, Arls and Teyrns would be too hapy with being ruled from Orlais by someone who is culturally Orlesian

[Deified Data]

Plaintiff wrote...

Madkipz wrote...
They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

Oh really? You've been to Tevinter, have you? Seen the mages for yourself? You're not just making sweeping assumptions based on the word of say, an extremely biased elf with magical amnesia?

Of all the mages you've ever had in your party, only Merrill and possibly mage-Warden have ever made a deal with a demon or used blood magic (and Merrill barely counts). Yet they are all perfectly capable of kicking templar ass. Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. In fact, he openly abhors blood magic. You could argue that he has Justice, but that's not the same thing and doesn't really make him noticeably stronger than any other mage. There is no reason to assume that a normal, non-party mage wouldn't be just as capable.

Remember that Anders is a hypocrite, who allowed himself to become an abomination to increase his power. Justice may not have been a demon, but Vengeance surely is. Anders may not be a blood mage, but he's an abomination, all the same.

[AshenEndymion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Madkipz wrote...
They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

Oh really? You've been to Tevinter, have you? Seen the mages for yourself? You're not just making sweeping assumptions based on the word of say, an extremely biased elf with magical amnesia?

Of all the mages you've ever had in your party, only Merrill and possibly mage-Warden have ever made a deal with a demon or used blood magic (and Merrill barely counts). Yet they are all perfectly capable of kicking templar ass. Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. In fact, he openly abhors blood magic. You could argue that he has Justice, but that's not the same thing and doesn't really make him noticeably stronger than any other mage. There is no reason to assume that a normal, non-party mage wouldn't be just as capable.

Of all the mages ever in the party? Only 2 have made a deal with a demon?!?

Someone is forgetting Anders and Wynne....  Spirits and demons being the same things, and all.

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...
Because the popular opinion is always the right one.

It is when you answer to someone besides yourself.  I don't think he ever would have gotten this past the Landsmeet.  I kinda wish they had stuck with this plot.  I'm itching to see how it would have played out.

The location of the throne is irrelevent, what matters is how the country is ruled. Whatever faults people may think he had, Cailan cared about Ferelden. he laid down his life for it and if this marriage alliance had been formed, he would've made sure its interests were represented.

It is NOT irrelevant, when Val Royeux was the seat from which a brutal takeover and occupation was carried out.  Pick any bitter national rivalry you'd like in current real world politics and imagine that scenario.  Granted that the Orlesians f'ed up their governorship of Ferelden or else they might have been able to hang on to it, but that is the way things go with autocratic empires.  Celene seems to be a better sort, or simply more cunning, but what happens when another Meghren takes over?

I do like Cailan, and in his own way I think he was trying to do his best.  He was just not suited to the kingship.  If he had survived Ostagar and survived his dalliance with Orlais, maybe he'd have made a good king someday.  As things were, he didn't stand a chance in a tete a tete with Celene.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Plaintiff wrote...

Morrigan and Bethany and Finn and Velanna are not possessed, nor are they blood mages, all are capable of handling themselves, and only Finn is a Circle Mage. Morrigan and Bethany get to take out templars on a regular basis, even. If the "average mage" is weak it's because the Circle purposefully keeps them that way. Just another reason why it should be disbanded: it can't even train its mages properly.

They all fall under 'companion level.' Now compare them with Emile de Launcet. Who would be a more accurate example of a mage caught in the crossfire against their will. And its not about training them to unleash powerful magics. Its about training them to show restraint and not let magic and demons rule over them.

Just because someone can do magic, doesn't mean they want to be a powerful mage or fight battles they didn't pick. Just because someone can pick up a sword, doesn't mean they should be fully trained warriors. Bethany can handle herself just fine, but she's actually happier teaching children in the circle than battling the darkspawn.

If Elthina truly felt sympathetic and wasn't merely paying simpering lipservice, she could've had Meredith removed and someone more moderate put in her place. Elthina was in a position of pwer to drastically improve things for the Kirkwall mages (not nearly enough, but it would've been a substantial change nontheless). Instead, she chooses to sit back with her thumb up her ass. She didn't do anything. Okay, so her mere existence prevents Meredith from going openly bat****. Barely. But everytime Orsino and Meredith show up on her doorstep, she tells them to "go home and cool down". Orsino is forced to raise his BS tolerance level, Meredith doesn't end up answering to anybody and she just continues treating the mages like **** until the next blowup, when it starts all over again. Meredith is already tranquilizing mages when she shouldn't have been and Elthina didn't step in even at this gross abuse of power. Elthina can claim to be "neutral" until the cows come home, but the oppressed mages are not going to appreciate her neutrality, and nor should they. The right course of action is obvious.

How easy you forget that she calls Meredith a little girl and commands the templars to treat Orsino with respect. If anyone was forced to raise her BS tolerance level, it was Meredith. Orsinio was actually quite fond of Elthina and practiced restraint. Even he recognized the value of the Circle. Meredith was going to break soon enough and she'd have been removed.

How hard does Anders have to work? How long will it take? Months? Years? Is there any guarantee that this course of action will see his goals met in his lifetime? Hell no! After seven goddamn years of healing the sick, the sympathy he garners isn't even enough to protect him on a personal level. He tells Hawke that the templars have been hanging around, watching and harrassing him. Sympathy does not protect Anders, Hawke does.

Hawke protects him sure. So does Varric. And Aveline. And mobs of commoners who stand up to you when you ask too many questions about him. Even the Templars don't do anything overt, even though Meredith is completely aware of him. All because of the sympathy his actions built.

He could have been an advocate for mage rights if he wanted to be. Show everyone that mages weren't the monsters everyone thought. Even if they weren't in the circle. But instead he opted for the lazy terrorist route.

[Madkipz]

Plaintiff wrote...

Madkipz wrote...
They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

Oh really? You've been to Tevinter, have you? Seen the mages for yourself? You're not just making sweeping assumptions based on the word of say, an extremely biased elf with magical amnesia?

Of all the mages you've ever had in your party, only Merrill and possibly mage-Warden have ever made a deal with a demon or used blood magic (and Merrill barely counts). Yet they are all perfectly capable of kicking templar ass. Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. In fact, he openly abhors blood magic. You could argue that he has Justice, but that's not the same thing and doesn't really make him noticeably stronger than any other mage. There is no reason to assume that a normal, non-party mage wouldn't be just as capable.

Erm, Fenris explicitly implies that all magisters are blood mages and deal with demons. Because if they dont they loose an edge they would never be able to make up for when facing another magister in a duel.

Hawke resisting that blood mage "mind control" in the brothel is basically what happens when lore and game does not comply with each others. As a blood mage is fully capable of letting you keep control of your mind as they make your body move on its own. Blood magic also makes it so that you get to start viewing other people as sources of lyrium and power. A blood mage would take the blood of unwilling, innocent bystanders or even their own enemies and use it as fuel for spells faar greater than what a mage can cast by himself without resorting to blood magic.

and Merrill is threading that same line as magisters thread. Make one deal you cant hold or fall victim to trusting a demon too much and VOILA instant abomination.

as for other normal and capable mages. Well yes, there are some and apostates too but most circle mages are sheep to the slaugther as is evident in how fast they turn to blood magic (if they were capable they would try other means maybe?)

Modifié par Madkipz, 08 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[Addai]

Plaintiff wrote...

Madkipz wrote...
They are both.

Because they can turn into abominations and make deals with demons they need to be regulated and controlled but without turning to bloodmagic and abominations mages are fragile and weak. As is evident by the way Tevinter Magisters deal with demons and how they are all blood mages.

Oh really? You've been to Tevinter, have you? Seen the mages for yourself? You're not just making sweeping assumptions based on the word of say, an extremely biased elf with magical amnesia?

Of all the mages you've ever had in your party, only Merrill and possibly mage-Warden have ever made a deal with a demon or used blood magic (and Merrill barely counts). Yet they are all perfectly capable of kicking templar ass. Anders didn't use blood magic to blow up the Chantry. In fact, he openly abhors blood magic. You could argue that he has Justice, but that's not the same thing and doesn't really make him noticeably stronger than any other mage. There is no reason to assume that a normal, non-party mage wouldn't be just as capable.

The fact that Tevinter became a world power using the blood of their sacrifices is established canon and not just by Fenris word of mouth.

IMO it's naive to think that in a world war against the Chantry, that only a mage here or there would turn to the most powerful magic they have available to them.  And not just to gain the upper hand, but then to keep it.

[RavenB]

AshenEndemion wrote...

Someone is forgetting Anders and Wynne....  Spirits and demons being the same things, and all.

When has that ever been confirmed? The Chantry and the Dalish (at least) have conflicting ideas on this. Justice believed they were different entities up until an undetermined point. You're stating as fact something about creatures that are not at all fully explained in the games.

[master-fluff]

errant_knight wrote...

... I don't see much reason for a PC to spare Anders that isn't strictly personal. ...

How about letting Ander's survive so you can learn how to make bombs ?  Might be pretty darn useful seeing as how the Qunari are supposedly the only ones with the technology.  I for one was mighty impressed with his explosion, especially when you consider that was his first attempt.  It has so many possible applications for good or evil.

We don't have to search too hard to find real-life examples of how enemy experts/scientists are spared trial/punishment and  are secretly whisked away to safety to work for you.