213 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

master-fluff wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

... I don't see much reason for a PC to spare Anders that isn't strictly personal. ...

How about letting Ander's survive so you can learn how to make bombs ?  Might be pretty darn useful seeing as how the Qunari are supposedly the only ones with the technology.  I for one was mighty impressed with his explosion, especially when you consider that was his first attempt.  It has so many possible applications for good or evil.

We don't have to search too hard to find real-life examples of how enemy experts/scientists are spared trial/punishment and  are secretly whisked away to safety to work for you. 

He just fuelled stuff the dwarfs use all the time with force magic. Forget that. Dwarfs are using lyrium for their bombs, not the stuff Anders uses.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 08 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[b09boy]

PantheraOnca wrote...

b09, they didn't want to be ruled by orlais. If their king marries the orlaisian empress, they are as much ruling orlais as they are ruling ferelden.

You are as naive as Cailan then.

Where do the couple live?  Orlais?  How do you think Fereldan would react to being ruled by someone in Orlais, even if they are Fereldan born?  What about laws, customs, government.  They are not the same between the two countries.  Would chevaliers retain the same rights in Fereldan and Orlais?  What if one dies, who takes the throne in the other country?  What if they have a child, does it inherit both thrones?

Without even answering these questions the Fereldan nobles would already be gathering armies to protect their borders and hopefully kill the idiot king who'd give up his kingdom to those who enslaved them for a couple generations.

If the battle was unwinnable, it would have been the superior decision to send scouts back to denerim/etc to confirm it is a blight, and have your men die on the field than to cause a civil war while the darkspawn gain numbers. he knew what he was doing was wrong. that's why he lied about what happened.

Are you serious?  First, the blight still wasn't confirmed.  Second, that he saved the majority of the army is probably one of the main reasons Fereldan didn't eventually fall.  Third, suiciding an army just 'cause is beyond dumb.

if loghain didn't cause a schism in ferelden, they would have been able to rally much quicker and repel the darkspawn sooner than they did.

This is assuming Cailan survives the suicidal position he put himself in while searching for glory.  It also assumes he'd have much of an army left after being saved.  It ALSO assumes he'd be as good a leader as the Warden.

Additionally, the darkspawn are capable of breaking, a cavalry charge or flanking is just the thing to cause that. Get whatever was launching the stones onto the walkway (ogres? siege weaponry of some kind?) to stop firing, and mages can let loose without fear of reprisal. That alone would turn the tide.

Hahahaha.  You didn't actually look at the picture did you.

[KJandrew]

TobiTobsen wrote...

master-fluff wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

... I don't see much reason for a PC to spare Anders that isn't strictly personal. ...

How about letting Ander's survive so you can learn how to make bombs ?  Might be pretty darn useful seeing as how the Qunari are supposedly the only ones with the technology.  I for one was mighty impressed with his explosion, especially when you consider that was his first attempt.  It has so many possible applications for good or evil.

We don't have to search too hard to find real-life examples of how enemy experts/scientists are spared trial/punishment and  are secretly whisked away to safety to work for you. 

He just fuelled stuff the dwarfs use all the time with force magic. Forget that. Dwarfs are using lyrium for their bombs, not the stuff Anders uses.

He used salt peter, sulpher and a little sprinkle of magic

[PantheraOnca]

b09boy wrote...

You are as naive as Cailan then.

You are as backstabby as Loghain then? Yay personal attaaaaaacks!

Where do the couple live?  Orlais?  How do you think Fereldan would react to being ruled by someone in Orlais, even if they are Fereldan born?  What about laws, customs, government.  They are not the same between the two countries.  Would chevaliers retain the same rights in Fereldan and Orlais?  What if one dies, who takes the throne in the other country?  What if they have a child, does it inherit both thrones?

The moment Cailan dies, if there is no heir, Orlais will cease to have rule over Ferelden (i'm basing this on the likely outcome of a landsmeet). Until then, Orlais is not an enemy any longer. Laws/customs/government might be mingled a little bit, but i'm sure each nation would largely stay unchanged for the immediate future. I don't know what right Chevaliers have. They would almost certainly be different in Ferelden. If one dies and there is no heir, unless the other has won over their non-native country, then there will likely be a breakdown. I would assume a child would inherit both thrones, this would really be the only way for a lasting peace to be established. Whether that child is accepted by the Banns or the Orlesian is another matter entirely.

Without even answering these questions the Fereldan nobles would already be gathering armies to protect their borders and hopefully kill the idiot king who'd give up his kingdom to those who enslaved them for a couple generations.

Cailan marrying Celeste requires that Cailan be alive, and thus we must assume that he stopped or at least contained the Blight. This will buy oodles of support. I do not expect the Banns to disband their armies or hand them over to the Orlesians. I would expect them to be cautious and question their King. The Orlesians ruled Ferelden for I think 1 Monarch, the guy that Maric deposes. Maybe 2. I think Maric's grandfather lost to the Orlesians, then his mom was the Rebel queen, then he ousted them. So yes, a "couple generations" could be correct, but it might be overstating slightly.

Are you serious?  First, the blight still wasn't confirmed.  Second, that he saved the majority of the army is probably one of the main reasons Fereldan didn't eventually fall.  Third, suiciding an army just 'cause is beyond dumb.

If his forces were that large, his need to retreat seems minimal. I do not think that they couldn't have beaten the darkspawn back.

This is assuming Cailan survives the suicidal position he put himself in while searching for glory.  It also assumes he'd have much of an army left after being saved.  It ALSO assumes he'd be as good a leader as the Warden.

You say that like there has never been a successful leader-from-the-front. If Aemon hadn't been poisoned, his troops would be arriving within a week I believe.

Hahahaha.  You didn't actually look at the picture did you.

I did. I was not impressed. The more darkspawn their are, the more the mages can do. Loghain could use his forces to buy the mages time to recover to cast additional spells, not even counting the effect the forces themselves could have, which according to your is the "majority of forces" present at Ostagar.

Also, Aveline doesn't seem to think it was a lost cause and she doesn't appear to be an idiot by anyone's standards.

[Dave of Canada]

Funnily enough, Loghain always lives in my playthroughs while Anders always dies.

[Danjaru]

purely technically it felt like this.

DA:O = Trade my tank for a inferior one (if sparing loghain)

DA2 = Loose my healer or my stupid DLC character.

Story wise it was just as easy to kill Loghain as it was sparing Anders.

One is a corrupt dictator that does heinous things that ends in countless deaths just for his unjustified paranoia. Among them being involved in slavery, allying himself with a man who murdered 2 noble families and endulged himself in torture, sacrificing a whole army cause he didn't like the king and so forth.

While Anders was acting on trying to free his people from oppression. (just realized the connection between Anders and Moses. Justice acting the role of god.. weird).
I found Anders action justifiable, he wasn't doing it for ****s and giggles but knew something drastic had to happen to force the mages to unite and fight back instead of having stragglers being picked off from time to time.

[PantheraOnca]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Funnily enough, Loghain always lives in my playthroughs while Anders always dies.

Yeah, Anders lived in my first game because I didn't want to go without a healer. I will deal without one from now on.

If I had the Sebastian DLC I might keep anders in my group (templar me, fenris, sebastian) just so we could all hate on him until i stab him in the spine.

[Cutlass Jack]

I was fine going without a healer after what he did. Lucky for me I got my replacement healer (Warden Bethany) about a block away from his murderknifed body.

[PantheraOnca]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I was fine going without a healer after what he did. Lucky for me I got my replacement healer (Warden Bethany) about a block away from his murderknifed body.

I was really conflicted about it cause i wanted to kill him, but i also wanted to beat the game (i actually thought I was only at like the game's halfway point here, maybe 80% point) and figured a healer would be required for that. Also, I was a mage and was not willing to spec spirit healer because i make the thingies go BzZZZZZTT, I don't fill up red bars (also had no Sighs) and so bethany hadn't been alive for a long time.

but anyway, i was conflicted about it until dear ol' merrill said "make him work to fix what he's ****ed up" or whatever her exact wording was. it was a good enough excuse for me to let him live. that time. and only that time.

[Addai]

PantheraOnca wrote...
I did. I was not impressed. The more darkspawn their are, the more the mages can do. Loghain could use his forces to buy the mages time to recover to cast additional spells, not even counting the effect the forces themselves could have, which according to your is the "majority of forces" present at Ostagar.

Also, Aveline doesn't seem to think it was a lost cause and she doesn't appear to be an idiot by anyone's standards.

The mages broke fairly early.  Wynne does not even try to deny this when she and Loghain are having a go at each other.  On top of that, there were only a handful, and the darkspawn have their own mages.

Aveline was with Cailan's force, by the sounds.  As such she would have a very limited vantage point.  She could see the beacon, but we don't know that she could see the size of the horde.  We don't really know that Loghain could, either.  This is ambiguity left in so that we could have nice fights like this in the forum.  lol

I think it likely that Cailan was a goner no matter what Loghain did.  That obviously is not going to console someone who was abandoned at Ostagar.  Aveline is understandably pissed at that, but she also was not seeing the bigger picture.  BTW you could make an argument that she abandoned Ferelden, since she didn't stay and try to fight Loghain or fight the Blight.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 10:40 .

[Addai]

Danjaru wrote...

purely technically it felt like this.

DA:O = Trade my tank for a inferior one (if sparing loghain)

DA2 = Loose my healer or my stupid DLC character.

Mods are wonderful things.  Loghain's setup is not bad, but I respec'ed him to transfer a few points out of cunning and willpower into str and con.  There is also a mod now that allows you to give Merrill a basic heal spell.  It's not spirit healing, but evens the score a bit.  I prefer a damager mage anyway.  Merrill's high-level spells are quite powerful, though I find I have to micromanage her a bit.

[Cutlass Jack]

I think it was pretty clear Loghain could not see the horde from his position. If he could there would be no need for the beacon to tell him when to charge. His force was hidden out of view. That was the only way for his planned 'pincering' to work.

[Addai]

If the horde was much larger than anyone anticipated (as we know that it was), then he might have seen it whereas in the planning they hadn't expected he would be able to. That screenshot seems to show an endless stream of torches. If all he saw was a never-ending stream of darkspawn, that would be enough to say that the battle was a lost cause and trying to flank them would be disastrous.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Excellent, just when I thought debates about Loghain are finally over, I get proven wrong. I'd love to get back to my argument tearing apart mode, but the sheer redundancy and repetition finally took a toll on me.

[Wulfram]

Another big difference between Anders and Loghain is that we don't get the opportunity to feed Anders to an Archdemon in our place.

[Madkipz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Excellent, just when I thought debates about Loghain are finally over, I get proven wrong. I'd love to get back to my argument tearing apart mode, but the sheer redundancy and repetition finally took a toll on me.

It would not be much of a discussion if everyone agreed that Brogain was a bro who did what he thought was best.

[Conway044]

[quote]Madkipz wrote...

I can forgive Loghain alot easier.
His actions where birthed by ignorance towards why the Grey Wardens were needed, and at the time of the betrayal it was not believed to be a true blight because the darkspawn only did minor skirmishes that where easily beaten. '
While the Wardens insisted it was a blight they never say to anyone outside the order how they know it is one.
They also wanted help from the Orlesian wardens.
King Cailan was also being a busybuddy with the empress.

Im quite sure based on these presumtions many people with Loghains experiences during the Orlesian occupation would betray their king at one moment or another.

quote]

His King, son-in-law and the son of his closest friend, that he's know his entire life.  On top of all that, due to the lack of an heir, the last member of the Ferelden royal bloodline.  With out Cailin [or to a lesser extent Alistair] the legitimacy of anyone on the Ferelden throne comes into question. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Anders explains that it is hard to separate the real Anders from the Justice. It boils down to both personalities to merge, but sometimes we see that one takes over. No matter what the situation, there seems to be an inner struggle. Anders warns Hawke, and even sets you on this fake quest to separate them. How fake was that? A test to see how far you would go and if so why? If there was a way to separate them then maybe the inner conflict may be won by Justice (or Anders) to prevent it. And if there is a chance that they can be separated then shouldn't that be tried? If Anders blew up the chantry then Justice was innocent or the other way around. So, if you let him live then you could find a solution for that in the future and punish the one who was really guilty. Killing him on the spot shuts the door to that. So at least a delay is worth considering.

From a RP point it may not even be such a simple moralistic viewpoint that is driving you to kill Anders or not. You have to make a decision about it on the spot and are advised by some bystanders. Who do you choose? Are you motivated by his usefulness in the team, or are you judgmental and believe he should be killed, or are you a revolutionary that thinks his action was justified, or are you a power hungry character who believes his action will be in your advantage, or are you just plain evil. And so on.

Therefor I think you simply cannot argue what is the best decision.

And about Loghain. A lot of the above applies to him as well. If you become friendly with him then you can have some interesting talks in the camp. In one of those he can tell you that his daughter is a great manipulator that always gets what she wants. Did you keep Loghain alive or was it she that cleverly manipulated you into that? That's at least some food for thought. How about killing him? Would she be behind that as well? I gave up thinking about that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2011 - 02:17 .

[Jarcander]

Anders and Loghain? Somehow I don't feel comfortable comparing the two. I don't think there is a character similar to Anders in Origins. As for Loghain... again, a hard to find something truly to compare against from DA2. I suppose Sister Petrice (or whoever she was), another traitor might compare on some level though she is certainly not as high caliber as Loghain.

You might just as well try to find a Morrigan from DA2...

[theauthority]

Funny how I find interesting threads when they're already pages long. Anyway, my two cents.
I think Loghain used the Grey Wardens as an excuse to secure Ferelden. Given his background as a liberator and hero, he must have been appalled to hear that Cailan was to use Orlesian troops against the Darkspawn. Maybe abandoning Cailan was a little too harsh and somewhat cruel but if you try to see from Loghain's point of view, it was the only way to fend off the Orlesians (strategically, it was almost flawless - if the Warden and Alistair didn't survive, that is).
Also, he was far from paranoid: anybody who played Return To Ostagar DLC knows that Cailan was going to, err, dump Anora in favor of the Orlesian Empress. Keep in mind Loghain was also the Queen's father, no wonder he'd go to any length to protect Anora.
Loghain, imho, was never the villain in DA:O. He seized the opportunity to protect Ferelden the best way he could. True, without the Wardens he would have never stopped the Blight, but you can't blame him over the Wardens being a secretive lot. Eamon was already putting Cailan against the Mac Tir. In a twisted way (slavery, poisoning, relying on Howe), he was going for Ferelden's independence.
Honestly, Cailan was a fool and nothing in my 17 playthroughs convinced me that Alistair would be a better asset (perhaps with Anora, but alone... Nope, he's clueless, Eamon's puppet like Loghain predicted). Even hardened, he's a whiny brat.
It might be hard to see Loghain's stance but, all things considered, sparing him and have him protect his beloved Ferelden is my personal "canon" every time I play through Origins. There wouldn't be a Fereldan country to defend without Loghain - and Maric -, his past glory makes up for his late mistakes.

Now, Anders. Turning upside down my reasoning on Loghain, he has nothing to offset his act. He was a good Warden but that's pretty much it. All his narrow mind can come up with are mages. He doesn't see anything else beyond mages and templars. Common folks? Bystanders? Civil war? The Divine issuing Rights of Annulment like candies? Or, the Qunari exploiting the chaos to strike again? God, he's just a pathetic idiot. He isn't even an anarchist, he doesn't care about "normal" politicians who agree to be manipulated by the Chantry. Anders/Justice's world is black or white. No compromise. Fair enough, not even my Murder Knife likes a compromise of sorts
Plus, he's unstoppable in his intent, plot-shield is silly when you already know he's up to something fishy (unlike Loghain when you first meet him at Ostagar. Partial about Cailan, maybe, but not outright suspicious).

[FlyingCow371]

It was relatively easy to decide anders had to die. We were friends, with max friendship, and I liked Justice from Awakening, but he betrayed everything my character was trying to do. I didn't take anyone's side at the start of act 3, I was still looking to find a middle ground. Anders was even with me for a few of those quests, helping mages escape templars but also tracking down blood mages/menaces for the templars, so he knew where I stood. If he told me his plan, I definitely wouldn't have let him go through with it. He was prepared to die, he murdered a pretty big building filled with innocent people trying to take refuge from their troubles. A champion of the city can't let that kind of stuff stand. I didn't think there would be any chance of stopping the fighting if I let him go, and it would free Justice.

[Plaintiff]

theauthority wrote...

Funny how I find interesting threads when they're already pages long. Anyway, my two cents.
I think Loghain used the Grey Wardens as an excuse to secure Ferelden. Given his background as a liberator and hero, he must have been appalled to hear that Cailan was to use Orlesian troops against the Darkspawn. Maybe abandoning Cailan was a little too harsh and somewhat cruel but if you try to see from Loghain's point of view, it was the only way to fend off the Orlesians (strategically, it was almost flawless - if the Warden and Alistair didn't survive, that is).
Also, he was far from paranoid: anybody who played Return To Ostagar DLC knows that Cailan was going to, err, dump Anora in favor of the Orlesian Empress. Keep in mind Loghain was also the Queen's father, no wonder he'd go to any length to protect Anora.

But Loghain has no proof and no reason to be suspicious until you play the Return to Ostagar DLC. Suspicion without basis is the very definition of paranoia. His strategy might be flawless, except for one gaping hole. The Orlesians are not the clear and present danger. The darkspawn are. Even if it's not a true Blight, their numbers are enormous and following the battle of Ostagar they take a lot of territory in short order.

Loghain, imho, was never the villain in DA:O. He seized the opportunity to protect Ferelden the best way he could. True, without the Wardens he would have never stopped the Blight, but you can't blame him over the Wardens being a secretive lot. Eamon was already putting Cailan against the Mac Tir. In a twisted way (slavery, poisoning, relying on Howe), he was going for Ferelden's independence.
Honestly, Cailan was a fool and nothing in my 17 playthroughs convinced me that Alistair would be a better asset (perhaps with Anora, but alone... Nope, he's clueless, Eamon's puppet like Loghain predicted). Even hardened, he's a whiny brat.

It's not foolish to want to ally yourself with those who are stronger than you. Indpendence is a noble goal, but when you risk total annihilation, it's time to swallow your pride.

I find it amusing that people consider Anora a 'capable' ruler. I see no evidence of that, aside from her own assertions. She claims she was the brains behind the crown but as it turns out Cailan had his own plan for Ferelden that she knew nothing about, and doesn't appear to even have suspected. If she was the capable ruler she claimed, why did she defer to Loghain? If she wants to be queen, she should've stepped up and taken her opprtunity there and then instead of hiding behind daddy. She had her chance and she blew it. Alistair at least is compassionate and humble, as all rulers should be, sees the injustices occuring within Ferelden and most importantly, wishes to change them. As warden, I'll take the brave, honest, sensitive man who's stuck by me doggedly over an unhinged tyrant who backstabs his friends, or some hoity-toity **** who's all talk with nothing to actually back her up. 

Even if Alistair were Eamon's puppet (which I doubt, Eamon shows no desire to rule anything, he just wants a peaceful life with his family), would that be so bad? Eamon fought in the war against the Orlesians, jsut as Loghain did, and he's damn sight more trustworthy on a personal level.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[KJandrew]

Plaintiff wrote...
Even if Alistair were Eamon's puppet (which I doubt, Eamon shows no desire to rule anything, he just wants a peaceful life with his family), would that be so bad? Eamon fought in the war against the Orlesians, jsut as Loghain did, and he's damn sight more trustworthy on a personal level.

Eamon didn't fight in the rebellion, he and Teagan were hiding in the Free Marches the entire time.

Modifié par KJandrew, 09 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Funnily enough, Loghain always lives in my playthroughs while Anders always dies.

And both always die in mine.  Both of them push too many buttons for me to let them walk away without punishment for their crimes.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 09 avril 2011 - 09:29 .

[Plaintiff]

KJandrew wrote...

Eamon didn't fight in the rebellion, he and Teagan were hiding in the Free Marches during the war.

Huh. You got me there. I concede the point.

Nevertheless, Eamon working Alistair's strings behind the scenes would hardly be the worst outcome, he believes in serving Ferelden just as much as Loghain does, but without resorting to trewachery on a personal level.