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Anders decision = Loghain's in Origins?


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#201
Addai

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Grymgris wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

It means they're going to invade and take over, placing everything under their rule, removing the guard and possibly the existing Templars and the leadership, hence the entire city becomes an enemy.
It doesn't follow that they'll put every single citizen to the sword.


Or it could mean that they decide that the entire city needs to be "purged" from the "mage corruption".

And it also makes sense that the chantry would want to get rid of as many wittneses as possible, so now one will spread the word as of why the mages rebelled.

They're not going to eliminate a whole city.  :blink:  I'm sure a lot of innocent people would die "just in case" they are mages or mage supporters, and it would be no fun to be under martial rule by the Divine, but even the elves who surrendered and became Andrastian were put into alienages- they didn't just slaughter them all.  It would not go over well in the other Free Marcher cities if the Chantry wiped out all of Kirkwall.  If that's even possible.

#202
KnightofPhoenix

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If Orlais would be the one leading the Exalted March, they might have an interest in targeting specific merchants and groups and replace them with its own (like what Venice did during the 4rth Crusade). But I highly doubt they would massacre the whole city. It's an important port which dominates (as of yet) Waking sea traffic, it makes more sense to bring it under your sphere of influence.

Besides, razing it to the ground might give too much ammo to Nevarra to use against Orlais, if it's the latter that would be leading the Exalted March.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 avril 2011 - 11:14 .


#203
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You have a point OP. Both had their reasons, justified or not, it all comes down to personal opinion. But I knew their intentions were good in a way.

Anders did not blow up the chantry in pure hatred and madness. He blew it up because he felt for the need of change in the world, he felt that mages deserved freedom. Weather we can call it mad or not, again boils down to opinion. In my one; he is not mad at all, though I wasn't really *for* blowing up the chantry, I can clearly see his point of view and I respect it. It has been seen many times that arguing with the Templars or writing a strongly worded letter isn't going to change anything.

Loghain was mad in my opinion. But again I see *his* point of view and I respect it. He wanted to defend Ferelden from a possible Orlesian threat. But blaming the Grey Wardens was not 'cool,' but I guess he had no other choice. He did plan on defeating the blight though ignorant on the importance of the Grey Wardens. And Howe was the villian behind it all, I think at the end he would kill Loghain in his sleep. But never-the-less Loghain was an honourable man, one who deserved a chance. His goals were good (though he had questionable ways to accomplish them,) and his experiences with the Orlesians are enough to see through his madness and hate (seeing your mother get raped by them will scar you for life.)

#204
Grymgris

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When the Christians conquered Jerusalem they slaughtered most of the inhabitants of the city, so when religion is involved, **** happens, that`s all i`m saying :P

#205
alaska the 1st

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Grymgris wrote...

When the Western armys conquered Jerusalem they slaughtered most of the inhabitants of the city, so when war is involved, **** happens, that`s all i`m saying :P

Fixed:whistle:

#206
KnightofPhoenix

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Thank you alaska

#207
Grymgris

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Well, they do say that ignorance is bliss, and no one does ignorance quite as well as Christians :P 

#208
alaska the 1st

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Grymgris wrote...

Well, they do say that ignorance is bliss, and no one does ignorance quite as well as Christians :P 

...must...not...do..2...fixes...in a row...:pinched:

#209
Addai

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Er... yeah, not touching that.

I suppose the Chantry could take a scorched earth approach if they felt the situation was out of control, but they would end up losing a lot of support at a time when they need other nobles to join their cause. The Free Marches are Andrastian. It would be like an Italian Pope wiping out a city in France or Spain. That wouldn't go over well with the home team.

#210
Gravbh

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Anders at least knew what he did was horrible and had some remorse about it. If you take Loghain to Ostagar he basically says he'd do it all again.

#211
Plaintiff

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Addai67 wrote...
In RtO he says "I knew it."  That means he did have suspicions.  You think he wouldn't notice something if Cailan was planning to set Anora aside?  Alone the fact that Cailan made the deal to bring chevaliers into Ferelden shows that something was going on.  He may not have realized the extent of it, but he knew that Cailan was dealing with Orlais and doing so recklessly.

Without proof, which he did not have, Loghain's suspicions are the rambling of a madman.

And it's fine for you to say that the Orlesians aren't the clear and present danger.  Four legions of chevaliers- the shock troops that committed the most heinous crimes during the occupation- are massed at Ferelden's border.  He considers both of these things threats to the country, and not without reason.

It's not reason enough. A hell of a lot can change in thirty years. Orlais has a new Empress, for starters, one who is more concerned with keeping the peace than with expanding her territory.

And occupying soldiers committed atrocities? Shock horror! Why, that's never happened in a war before. Loghain is not a nice or honorable man, you think he'd stop his soldier raping and killing civilians if the tables were turned? You think he'd notice or even care?

So you admit that the Orlesians would have invaded Ferelden sooner or later?  See above.  You're contradicting yourself.

I admit no such thing. They were facing annihilation by the Darkspawn, not the Orlesians. How is that not obvious? Learn to read.

#212
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theauthority wrote...

I doubt he was totally unaware of Cailan's intentions before Ostagar (or Return to Ostagar DLC), he was always close to the royal family. Maybe suspicious but, in the end, not even Cailan believed it was truly a Blight; Duncan's concerns fell on deaf ears. Half of the botched assault should be blamed on the Wardens: if Duncan explained (with proof) why they really need the Wardens to stop a Blight, well, I think even Loghain would have been convinced - he has no problem believing Riordan's words before the Battle of Denerim. Otherwise, I'm entitled to think that Darkspawns are there just because, no apparent motive.
These things notwithstanding, Loghain's plan to keep Orlesians at bay, paradoxically, worked: the Warden reunites Ferelden, proving the country could fight without external intervention (Dwarves and Elves/Werewolves are neutral towards foreign politics, I'm not talking about raw numbers). All in all, Ferelden was lucky the Blight was stopped before it reached its critical mass.

This is all grand except there is no evidence that the Orlesians were ever planning to invade. It doesn't matter what we learn later, all that matters is that Loghain was working off a hunch, which to date, may still have been entirely wrong. Even if there are high-ranking nobles in Orlais who want to re-take Ferelden (which Alistair admits is true), Celene, their empress, is against it, so unless they're about assassinate her, Ferelden is and always was safe from Orlesian occupation during the events of both games.
----------------

Anora's attempt to become queen and only ruler was hindered by Loghain himself. Yet, she manages to turn the tide "hiring" the Warden to set her free. Loghain admits manipulation when you talk to him after the Landsmeet. This alone speaks volumes about her no-nonsense attitude.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, even Eamon remains silent as Anora explains she was the true politician behind Cailan.

Or, to look at it another way, Anora kowtowed to her father's ridiculous demands, despite being suspicious of his actions at Ostagar, went to Howe's place without so much as a single bodyguard and got herself captured like an idiot. She then turned to her father's enemies, only to (depending on your dialogue choices) betray them in short order when faced with Ser Cauthrien. So she's not only weak-willed and none-too-bright, she's also as treacherous as her father. Eamon isn't even in the room when Anora makes her bold claims, so you're going on her word alone. If this woman is sucha  great ruler and brilliant tactician, why is she not in charge? Yes, she was hindered by Loghain. Why did she let him hinder her? This does not say "political mastermind" to me. It says "weak moron".

So, personally I prefer a cunning politician to a wannabe do-gooder who's always escaped his responsibilities: Alistair likes to be led but, at the same time, he's afraid of consequences. What annoys me is how he retaliates on the Warden over difficult decisions (Connor, for example) but he wouldn't have the guts to do it himself. Being a Warden is easy for his mindset: you fight Darkspawn for the greater good, that's it. I know that the Epilogue states he'll be a capable king but, in the actual game, I see no hints of this evolution.

You can't call Alistair out for "escaping his responsibilities" when he was never given any. His job was always to remain hidden, he never had any of the rights or responsibilites to which he is entitled as per his lineage. He may be untested, but Loghain and Anora have both proven themselves to be not only blind to danger but also to be treacherous snakes. I'll take my chances with the guy I personally know I can trust. The fact that he is doubtful of his capabilities puts him high above Loghain and Anora who both have the hubris to think they're what's best for Ferelden in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The only real evidence we have in Anora's favour is the same as with Alistair; the epilogue. Claiming that she was the real power behind the crown proves nothing, except that she's a braggart.

Nope, I'm sorry, pragmatism over sentiments, I'm entrusting somebody with a whole country. I can see Alistair on the throne only if wed to Anora but not by himself. That's despite of Loghain's execution or not. 
Either way, there's a downside: the royal dynasty is, well over. Alistair+Warden=fertility problems, same with Anora+Alistair. Alistair, if ruling alone, ain't marrying anybody as far as I know. That's disheartening, on a second thought.

Yes, you're entrusting someone with an entire country and you're giving it to someone you've just met, just because she says she'll be a good ruler. That's a great choice. Anora is at least as risky as Alistair, she could easily be lying about her political capabilites, being able to manipulate people does not speak highly in her favour to me. Yes please, give me a queen who's good at lying, that's what I want as a citizen! All I need to know about Alistair is that he's honest, and that already puts him miles ahead.

#213
Addai

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Plaintiff wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
In RtO he says "I knew it."  That means he did have suspicions.  You think he wouldn't notice something if Cailan was planning to set Anora aside?  Alone the fact that Cailan made the deal to bring chevaliers into Ferelden shows that something was going on.  He may not have realized the extent of it, but he knew that Cailan was dealing with Orlais and doing so recklessly.

Without proof, which he did not have, Loghain's suspicions are the rambling of a madman.

LOL You mean his suspicions which proved to have foundation?  He's the freaking father of the queen, and close to the throne.  The fact that he suspects something that actually proves to be true is... oh why do I bother.

It's not reason enough. A hell of a lot can change in thirty years. Orlais has a new Empress, for starters, one who is more concerned with keeping the peace than with expanding her territory.

No politician ever lied about anything like that, of course.  :innocent:

Thirty years is not even half the time that Orlais spent raping and killing Fereldans.  For some people, even another generation won't be enough.  Naturally not everyone feels that strongly, and some want rapprochement.  I don't know if they would have gone for a marriage alliance, though.  I suppose Celene could have bought off or assassinated enough nobles to make it work.  In any event Loghain is a hardliner, not a madman.

And occupying soldiers committed atrocities? Shock horror! Why, that's never happened in a war before. Loghain is not a nice or honorable man, you think he'd stop his soldier raping and killing civilians if the tables were turned? You think he'd notice or even care?

Right, find me a scene like that in either of the novels or the game and I'll consider it fair to the discussion.

So you admit that the Orlesians would have invaded Ferelden sooner or later?  See above.  You're contradicting yourself.

I admit no such thing. They were facing annihilation by the Darkspawn, not the Orlesians. How is that not obvious? Learn to read.

You said that a marriage alliance was a good thing because it would have prevented war down the road.  So apparently you think that war with Orlais was a likelihood.  Or do you imagine Ferelden invading Orlais?

Anyway, the whole discussion is interesting but a bit pointless.  As I said initially, there are some similarities in terms of the PC, but they are two very different types of people and one's an abomination.  You don't see people making Che Loghaina t-shirts.  Although I would totally, totally wear one of those.  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 10 avril 2011 - 05:59 .


#214
Addai

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Gravbh wrote...

Anders at least knew what he did was horrible and had some remorse about it. If you take Loghain to Ostagar he basically says he'd do it all again.

I would guess that's because he honestly believes that what he did was what had to be done, given the knowledge he had at the time he made each of those decisions.  It's not to say that Loghain doesn't feel regret or that he did those things gladly or for the lulz.  If you've ever heard  his post-Landsmeet dialogue, you could never say that.

This is part of what makes him such a good antagonist character.  For the player who just wants to beat the bad guy and get the girl, they can have that and feel good about chopping his head off.  But there's a lot more there.  I'm not sure that Anders is quite as... hm, satisfying is the word that comes to mind.  For one thing, Anders has a spirit controlling him.  But I don't feel a lot of empathy for Anders so maybe others find him more compelling.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 avril 2011 - 06:21 .