260 réponses à ce sujet

[DeaHamlet]

Everyone is rather harsh on Merrill and her blood magic and possibly bring a demon through the eluvian or whatnots.
Anders gives her a hard time.
Fenris gives her a hard time.
Gamers give her a hard time.

But here are the facts.
The warden can go chasing an eluvian like it's not going to eat her and the rest of the world.  She can also let Morrigan through it or even follow her.  Oh man, how bad can the eluvian be?

Hawke manages to summon demons over and over by destroying some books and then she summons Xebenkeck after reading the last book in Forbidden Knowledge.  Oh and a whole bunch of seemingly endless demons, arcane horrors, reverents.   

What the heck is ONE demon through a mirror going to make a difference here and there?  I lost count of how many demons Hawke et al killed by the end of it all.

And Hawke can also allow Topor to take over Feynriel, which o.O sounds like a supremely bad idea by the way people talk of dreamers.

I mean, by comparison, Merrill looks like an angel next to Hawke.

~I summoned a demon, of course I did, why wouldn't I?~ says sarcastic Hawke.  Indeed Hawke, indeed!
And yet nobody tells Hawke that they are a danger to the world.  
If Thedas doesn't get pulverized after all of Hawke's shenanigans, I'll be surprised!

[Emperor Iaius I]

Easy. Hawke gets to do whatever s/he wants and risk his companion's lives--including Merrill's--in the process. Should Merrill try to do something for her people that has a risk of a demon appearing (something she's prepared for), she's the worst person in the world and probably an idiot besides.

Double standards? You bet.

[Jorrkit]

I don't have a problem with her doing her best to help her people... I just didn't want her to get hurt.

[Neesa]

Emphasizing all the demon shenanigans Hawke can get into doesn't really help Merill's case, at all.

[Trophonius]

I actually thought Merrill was a largely sympathetic character. Desperation drives people to equivocal measures and her reasons for succumbing to blood magic was understandable. Her people are being thrust to the brink of extinction, never to be heard of again. She was convinced that the eluvian's power is the only way to forestall that from happening. Marethari's decision to imprison the demon inside her body was her choice, not Merrill's.

[hoorayforicecream]

Because summoning Xebenkek was an accident. Hawke accidentally summoned Xebenkek by *destroying* the evil tomes and fell grimoire. Similarly with the Awiergen scrolls, Hawke ran around killing all of the demons and undead at the hidden lairs. They were already there, Hawke just found them and put them down. It passes the "reasonable person" test... if you ask somebody whether destroying evil tomes would cause a malevolent demon to be released, would a reasonable person say "yes"? Probably not.

Merrill doesn't get the same pass because she does it on purpose. It doesn't pass the reasonable person test... would a reasonable person say "yes" to the question "Would summoning a demon, which have long histories of possessing people who deal with them, be a good idea if it meant repowering a magical mirror whose purpose is still unknown?" I don't think a reasonable person would say yes.

[Jorrkit]

It doesn't seem all that farfetched to me. She's trying to help her people the best way she knows how. The Dalish certainly aren't thriving under current circumstances. Their primary purpose is to reclaim their lost past; in that regard, Merrill is one of the best and most dedicated of their kind.

[UltiPup]

But I was destroyed the Tomes D: If I read, took them, or destroyed them, the demons were angry. Let it be me who takes their ire instead of a hapless citizen. At least I can spout a witty one liner..

[Emperor Iaius I]

The reasonable person test is only useful when we ask what a reasonable person in the same circumstances and of the same mindset would have done. Further, I submit that your question would make a pretty lousy jury instruction and would get you reversed and remanded on appeal without question.

[Jorrkit]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The reasonable person test is only useful when we ask what a reasonable person in the same circumstances and of the same mindset would have done. Further, I submit that your question would make a pretty lousy jury instruction and would get you reversed and remanded on appeal without question.

"Of the same mindset" is what's key for me. If I were a Dalish elf, there's no telling what I'd do if I thought it could help my entire race. Was it entirely unreasonable for Branka to want the Anvil of the Void? I don't think so. Granted, she drifted off the deep-end a bit at the end there, but the initial idea itself is okay in my book.

[hoorayforicecream]

All of the people judging Merrill knew all of the parts of the question as fact. Similarly, all of the people judging Hawke for destroying evil tomes also knew all of the question as fact. Hawke stuck her hand into the blender by accident, and was tough enough to not get hurt. Merrill wanted to stick her hand into the blender on purpose, and that makes people judge her for it.

[Emperor Iaius I]

We know the facts? So we know what would have happened had Marethari not interfered, as a fact?

No. We only know what a pride-demon-infested abomination told us.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[Neesa]

Trophonius wrote...

I actually thought Merrill was a
largely sympathetic character. Desperation drives people to equivocal
measures and her reasons for succumbing to blood magic was
understandable. Her people are being thrust to the brink of extinction,
never to be heard of again. She was convinced that the eluvian's power
is the only way to forestall that from happening. Marethari's decision
to imprison the demon inside her body was her choice, not Merrill's.

Were they really? Part of the Dalish clans problem is
their aloof-ness from their city counterparts; as if travelling in small
groups and antagonizing anyone they come across is going to do them any
good in that area. I think it's somewhat telling that if you suggest
Merill to help the city elves she admits to never really seeing them
before.

[hoorayforicecream]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

We know the facts? So we know what would have happened had Marethari not interfered, as a fact?

No. We only know what a pride-demon-infested abomination told us.

Are you saying that demons DON'T want to possess people as a general rule?
Are you saying that Merrill knew what the eluvian was going to do once she fixed it?

I posit that the answer to both questions is "no".

[Raiil]

Blood magic is a no-no, even amoung the Dalish. Merrill went against the grain in the worst possible way.

Hawke destroying the books had a consequence a reasonable person could not foresee; it's not like burning a book regularly spawns demons of rage, even in their universe. Merrill is playing with fire, and she knows it.


But I admit to being biased. I really don't like Merrill at all.

[Maria Caliban]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Hawke stuck her hand into the blender by accident...

Hawke receives a letter from an apostate talking about a collection of evil tomes used to summon demons. After destroying the first, a group of powerful demons appear within the Chantry and she has to fight them.

How then does she 'accidentally' go about destroying three more? And then 'accidentally' find out that by destroying them she's opened an ancient ruin in the heart of Kirkwall? And then 'accidentally' enter that ruin and find an incredibly powerful demon that's trapped there?

I cannot believe Hawke suspects that destroying the tomes will have no possible danger or that the ancient ruin guarded by evil, demon summoning tomes will be filled with cookies and milk.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm saying that the demon lied to Marethari in order to possess her. This is your general rule, no?

The principle of parsimony suggests the simplest solution is often the best one: the simplest solution is that the demon lied to Marethari. The only suggestion to the contrary is what the demon tells us itself. Do you believe it?

The eluvian wasn't there. It had no connection to the statue. On what basis would you believe the demon? Marethari did because she was tricked: and she accomplished exactly what the demon wanted.

It's not sufficient to say "demons like possessing things so we'll just assume that's what would have happened" when the demon's already possessed something and is already lying about it (remember, if you defeat it, the demon says oh, the demon is destroyed, and then if you believe it, it stabs Merrill with a knife).

Marethari was not in control of that thing at all.

[Jorrkit]

Hawke and Commander Shepard don't really seem to need much justification for their actions. After all, they are controlled by us, and quite many of us are idiots. =P

[Trophonius]

Neesa wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

I actually thought Merrill was a
largely sympathetic character. Desperation drives people to equivocal
measures and her reasons for succumbing to blood magic was
understandable. Her people are being thrust to the brink of extinction,
never to be heard of again. She was convinced that the eluvian's power
is the only way to forestall that from happening. Marethari's decision
to imprison the demon inside her body was her choice, not Merrill's.

Were they really? Part of the Dalish clans problem is
their aloof-ness from their city counterparts; as if travelling in small
groups and antagonizing anyone they come across is going to do them any
good in that area. I think it's somewhat telling that if you suggest
Merill to help the city elves she admits to never really seeing them
before.

Can you blame the Dalish though? Denerim proved that the elves are nothing but ghetto trash to be brushed aside. The living conditions of elves over there are absolutely deplorable. In other words, it's a sh*thole to dump the rest of the city elves in. It's easy to see why the Dalish generally mistrust humans. Even they can't settle in Sundermount forever. They'll eventually be driven out.

[Maria Caliban]

Jorrkit wrote...

Hawke and Commander Shepard don't really seem to need much justification for their actions.

Which is unfortunate.

When I returned Kelgar to his father, I looked forward to hearing later on how elven children were being brutally murdered by an escaped criminal.

[Jorrkit]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jorrkit wrote...

Hawke and Commander Shepard don't really seem to need much justification for their actions.

Which is unfortunate.

When I returned Kelgar to his father, I looked forward to hearing later on how elven children were being brutally murdered by an escaped criminal.

Snarky Hawke shrugs. "Whoops! My bad!"

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm not sympathetic to elves. At all. However, Merrill was distressed by that criminal sadist. Her whim is my command.

[hoorayforicecream]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Hawke receives a letter from an apostate talking about a collection of evil tomes used to summon demons. After destroying the first, a group of powerful demons appear within the Chantry and she has to fight them.

How then does she 'accidentally' go about destroying three more? And then 'accidentally' find out that by destroying them she's opened an ancient ruin in the heart of Kirkwall? And then 'accidentally' enter that ruin and find an incredibly powerful demon that's trapped there?

I cannot believe Hawke suspects that destroying the tomes will have no possible danger or that the ancient ruin guarded by evil, demon summoning tomes will be filled with cookies and milk.

Maybe your Hawke did. My Hawke found an evil tome (appropriately titled "Evil Tome"), and destroyed it. She found more, and destroyed them too. She never got any letter from an apostate.. that apostate you're talking about was killed. In either case, it's a question of dealing with evils. Destroying the tomes did not posit any more danger (until Xebenkek) than any other random quest she'd dealt with up to that point. These were tomes placed by Tahrone, not an ancient evil. Why would Hawke decide to stop, unless she somehow gained clairovoyance somehow?

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm saying that the demon lied to Marethari in order to possess her. This is your general rule, no?

The principle of parsimony suggests the simplest solution is often the best one: the simplest solution is that the demon lied to Marethari. The only suggestion to the contrary is what the demon tells us itself. Do you believe it?

The eluvian wasn't there. It had no connection to the statue. On what basis would you believe the demon? Marethari did because she was tricked: and she accomplished exactly what the demon wanted.

It's not sufficient to say "demons like possessing things so we'll just assume that's what would have happened" when the demon's already possessed something and is already lying about it (remember, if you defeat it, the demon says oh, the demon is destroyed, and then if you believe it, it stabs Merrill with a knife).

Marethari was not in control of that thing at all.

That's not the question here though. We're not talking about Marethari in specific. Marethari didn't like what Merrill was doing, sure. But neither did the rest of the Dalish, nor Isabela, nor Varric, nor Anders, nor Fenris. The question is "Why do all these people give Merrill a hard time about doing this?" The answer is "Because she wanted to stick her hand into a blender on purpose".

[Neesa]

Trophonius wrote...

Can you blame the Dalish though? Denerim proved that the elves are nothing but ghetto trash to be brushed aside. The living conditions of elves over there are absolutely deplorable. In other words, it's a sh*thole to dump the rest of the city elves in. It's easy to see why the Dalish generally mistrust humans. Even they can't settle in Sundermount forever. They'll eventually be driven out.

I can find fault with that mentality, yes. They've essentially adopted the attitude of their enemies regarding their own kind and that attitude is something they've carried through generations from their old history. Creators forbid they should try after all this time to reconnect, right?

[LadyBri]

How bad can an eluvian be? Let's ask Tamlen, or Warden Mahariel, or resurrect Duncan to expound on why destroying an evil tainted mirror is a necessity. Maybe not all eluvians are evil, however, anyone who played DA:O Dalish origin (even more relevant than Witch Hunt, imo), knows that particular eluvian is definitely not good. In fact, I believe Duncan said no one should even go near the entire ruin without first cleansing it with fire because the mirror was that virulent.

I love Merrill's character - she is sweet, funny, and adorable. However, her obsession with this mirror and talking with a demon has the potential to destroy not only her awesome Keeper but her entire clan (depending on Hawke's lines, of course).

Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.