260 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

Addai67 wrote...
She thinks she cleansed the eluvian, because a demon told her it was safe.  Riiight. 

Actually, she most likely thinks she cleansed it, for the same reason she thinks that Karen is free of magical control.  Because she tested it.  Also, she's had the thing around for years, and hasn't turned into a ghoul....

[Killjoy Cutter]

Addai67 wrote...

Yes, little innocent Merrill did nothing at all. I get it, I get it. [/thread]

The basis on which she is being scorned by certain posters is deeply flawed, relies on facts not actually in evidence, and places the blame on Merrill for the free choices of other individuals. 


The situation with Merrill is like... if someone were to go outside in a hockey mask, and a bunch of people thought he was a slasher villain and tried to kill him!  And he beat them all down in self-defense, and then some were blaming him for those people's deaths or injuries, when the people who attacked him were the paranoid, ignorant ones! 

"Well, of course it's his fault, he should have known that people would think he was Michael Myers!" 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 avril 2011 - 07:27 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Yes, little innocent Merrill did nothing at all. I get it, I get it. [/thread]

Yeah and it's quite a shame. No raging demons aching for power at her fingertips, no rivers of blood running Sundermount, no Pride posession, and that stupid mirror still does't work!
Goddamit girl, try harder next time. Why must I do everything myself?
Now where's Anders, I need a sacrifice to go into the Fade and gotta find that stupid Pride***k and get some answers about that stupud piece of glass.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 01 avril 2011 - 07:18 .

[grimjac100]

Addai67, Vhalkyrie...I call it sloppy writing because it's what is known as `keystoning'. No matter what was done prior, *this* effect will happen. You can have 100% friendship/love/loyalty/etc with any given character and because the `script' reads this character will betray you...they betray you. This keystone incident goes against one of the core elements of the game: the whole friendship scale. What's the point of having this element if it means nothing?

It should not have been difficult to adapt the code so that if your friendship is X, then betrayal isn't possible. Lets face it, the Fade quest didn't impact the game as a whole; it doesn't change the choice between templars/mages. You literally have no control; it may as well have been a custscene and removed even the illusion of choice. They made Anders immune for reasons that make sense in the context of the story. We know from the start he is essentially possessed, so his actions throughout hang together in a logical fashion.

Having Merrill, or any other character you have worked to raise friendship with, betray you without any alternative...yes, that's bad writing. Not for a movie, perhaps; definitely for a videogame where our choices are supposed to impact the outcome. As I said, it shouldn't be impossible or even difficult to code, so failure to do so is lazy, sloppy, bad, and a bunch of other negative terms. To me, as with killjoy, it shows the writers were only interested in emphasizing how `dangerous' demons are, which is kind of silly since the entire game is based around us turning hordes of them into inert ectoplasm. Honestly, if these demons are so tough, why, after each betrayal, do we and our now-diminished party tear them apart?

Now that that dead horse is sufficiently beaten...on to the next ailing equine.

We're given NO reason to expect the eluvian is inherently evil. The opposition of Maratheri and the Dalish to Merrill's desire to repair it makes no sense. We can *assume* Maratheri turned the Dalish against Merrill's plans and actively worked to prevent the eluvian's repair. The underlying reason Maratheri was so opposed is never given; whatever she says has to be discounted because we don't know when she took the demon inside herself. Again, we can assume the opposition started prior to Merrill first interacting with the demon, but there's no answer as to *why* Maratheri was opposed, in direct contrast to the role of a Keeper. Did Maratheri have some direct knowledge of the eluvian's evil? If so, why didn't she simply tell Merrill? "Yes, the eluvian was created as a weapon in order to make summoning demons easier. Our ancestors were stupid enough back then to think they could control demons, and that's why our civilization fell."

Any of us with kids know darn well the quickest way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they shouldn't be.

Now, I liked Maratheri as a character, but I think she's a perfect example of someone heading to hell greased with her good intentions. She may have had very valid reasons for not wanting the eluvian repaired, but the methods she chose weren't very smart. If your teenage daughter expresses an interest in sex, you sit down and have The Talk with her, including discussion of condoms and birth control. You don't put her out on the street and have everyone else in your family call her a s*ut.

Because if you do the latter, she may do just as Merrill did: find herself a big mean talented guy who's on her side...to your entire family's dismay.

[Camenae]

grimjac100 wrote...

Any of us with kids know darn well the quickest way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they shouldn't be.

Now, I liked Maratheri as a character, but I think she's a perfect example of someone heading to hell greased with her good intentions. She may have had very valid reasons for not wanting the eluvian repaired, but the methods she chose weren't very smart. If your teenage daughter expresses an interest in sex, you sit down and have The Talk with her, including discussion of condoms and birth control. You don't put her out on the street and have everyone else in your family call her a s*ut.

Because if you do the latter, she may do just as Merrill did: find herself a big mean talented guy who's on her side...to your entire family's dismay.

Hah, I like that.  That is very true.

[Addai]

grimjac100 wrote...

Addai67, Vhalkyrie...I call it sloppy writing because it's what is known as `keystoning'. No matter what was done prior, *this* effect will happen. You can have 100% friendship/love/loyalty/etc with any given character and because the `script' reads this character will betray you...they betray you. This keystone incident goes against one of the core elements of the game: the whole friendship scale. What's the point of having this element if it means nothing?

"It means nothing" because in one scene the companions are scripted to react in a certain way?  Boy, that Fade portion really pissed you off.  I don't know what to tell you.  It's probably my favorite quest, and the betrayals are all interesting to me because of how they react during and after.  (Persuade) and skip to demon fight... booooring.

We're given NO reason to expect the eluvian is inherently evil. The opposition of Maratheri and the Dalish to Merrill's desire to repair it makes no sense.

It killed Tamlen, would have killed and effectively did exile Mahariel, and might have killed the whole clan but for Duncan's intervention.  That should be enough for any reasonable person not to run and get a shard of it and try to rebuild it.  That is the underlying reason why Marethari and the rest of the clan are worried about it.  Did you ever play the Dalish origin??

The underlying reason Maratheri was so opposed is never given; whatever she says has to be discounted because we don't know when she took the demon inside herself.

??  You're assuming the demon was simultaneously trying to lure Merrill into repairing the mirror and, through Marethari, trying to dissuade her from doing the same thing?  Just for the lulz, I guess?

Any of us with kids know darn well the quickest way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they shouldn't be.

Merrill's supposed to be an adult.  She's supposed to be one of the more responsible members of the clan or she wouldn't have been chosen as first.  You're not really making her out to be more sympathetic by saying she's just a stupid kid and was going to do it all no matter what anyone told her.  I guess Marethari should have put her on timeout? 

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2011 - 09:10 .

[sphinxess]

Addai67 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What did Merrill do wrong?  Nothing.  She never had a chance to. 

EVERYTHING bad that happened was the direct result of someone else's reaction, their fear, their ignorance.

Everything that happened was a result, indirectly or not, of Merrill's actions.  If you're driving down a road with "Stop, Turn Back" signs flashing at you every few hundred feet, don't blame the passengers when you're plunging off a cliff.

I actually did that once as a kid - put up a road closed sign - had all kinds of laughs watching people stop and turn around

[sphinxess]

[quote]
Any of us with kids know darn well the quickest way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they shouldn't be.
[/quote]
Merrill's supposed to be an adult.  She's supposed to be one of the more responsible members of the clan or she wouldn't have been chosen as first.  You're not really making her out to be more sympathetic by saying she's just a stupid kid and was going to do it all no matter what anyone told her.  I guess Marethari should have put her on timeout?  [/quote]

That's the keepers problem - she treats Merrill as if she is a child - so Merrill presses on with the information she can find - cleans the mirror of the taint <something the keeper said was the reason the mirror should be left alone> and prepares to try to make another trade with the demon - if the keeper had been more willing to share her knowledge maybe they could have figured something out together -

Its not like Merrill had been doing everything is a rush so the keeper couldn't explain her reasoning - by the time she returns to the mountain shes been working with the original shard and later the recreated mirror for 12 years

[Tumedus]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Hawke's criticism and judgement (if it applies) of Merril

People kinda judge and criticize characters here from their own modern perspective of good and evil. If you only do it from Hawke's perspective, then either you forgot to turn off the game, or to take your morning pills.
To make it clearer - if someone sees Dark Ritual moral, but calls Merrills actions as immoral, on a basis of some universal morality, his views can be perceived as flawed. I think that's what Tumedos meant.

Yes that was largely what I was getting at. Also the aspect of egocentric justification is all over the place. Basically if people as the main character do something it is perfectly fine but if a companion does a similar thing, then that must be met with a much different standard.

Ignoring the previous game and only looking only at this one. The Feynriel dream. Going into the dream, especially with your companions, is completely reckless. By even going into the dream, with the knowledge we have, we potentially give the demon and/or a corrupted Feynriel the ability to corrupt another host or 4. Powerful and influential hosts. As much as it would grieve the mother, the safe choice is to kill feynriel from the outside. But we have no compunction about being stupid and reckless ourselves because we are the hero.

The arwegian scrolls. Every scroll specifically states that it is part of a binding ritual. Upon touching any of them we are accosted by a rather tough fight of spawning undead. Does anyone think twice about continuing down this path. Not for the almighty Hawke. I mean let's be honest here, even if we got a warning from the ghost of Duncan before touching the first scroll saying "Hey there Champion, touching these scrolls will unleash the personification of pride," would anyone stop? Of course not, we are the hero.

But poor Merrill, she takes every precaution she can think of, spends years working on this, brings the guy or gal who has potentially already beaten hybris, a high dragon, Xebenkeck and several other difficult foes, and because things don't turn out well, she is scorned for this. I truly wonder if the game had offered a postive outcome whether people would criticize so much.

But, to put it simply, if the resonsibility of cleansing the mirror and confronting the demon were put to Hawke instead of Merrill, good outcome or bad, few if any would have issue with the decisions being made.

And as has been pointed out, nothing bad that comes of this quest chain is a direct result of Merrill's own actions.

Pol ran from her in terror into the waiting maw of the Varterral. He was scared of her because of blood magic, sure, but nothing overt on her part resulted in his death. She was working in good faith to help him and ultimately slay the Varterral.

Similarly Martheri taking in the demon was her choice. She gave the demon form and forced our hand in her death. And, this is important, she willingly let the demon in. If she had let Merrill continue on her cautious approach, or better yet, offered assistance, we simply cannot know whether they would have come out victorious.

Finally, the death of her clan, an avoidable outcome, is again the result of Martheri's and the clans actions, not Merrills. Martheri forcing her death at the hands of an outcast and a shem would have to realize the potential for backlash. And we learn that abominations in the clan are not unheard of, so the clan's unwillingness to hear you out is their own pride, anger and foolishness taking shape.

Modifié par Tumedus, 01 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[Addai]

sphinxess wrote...
That's the keepers problem - she treats Merrill as if she is a child - so Merrill presses on with the information she can find - cleans the mirror of the taint <something the keeper said was the reason the mirror should be left alone> and prepares to try to make another trade with the demon - if the keeper had been more willing to share her knowledge maybe they could have figured something out together -

Its not like Merrill had been doing everything is a rush so the keeper couldn't explain her reasoning - by the time she returns to the mountain shes been working with the original shard and later the recreated mirror for 12 years

Marethari doesn't want the mirror recreated.  Why should she help?  It killed Tamlen and potentially Mahariel too.  Why can't Merrill take no for an answer, seek to study the eluvians in other ways?  Her obsession with this one eluvian is one reason the demon's influence is so fishy.  When you come upon her and she's staring at the shard, does that look like a rational person to you?

[Addai]

Tumedus wrote...
 And we learn that abominations in the clan are not unheard of, so the clan's unwillingness to hear you out is their own pride, anger and foolishness taking shape.

When do you hear that?

[Torax]

I can see the "Merrill didn't do it" argument which gets us no where. Of course she was not in control of the Keeper. Things of that nature. So what is the attempt of all this? To put the blame on one character for the actions of others? To try and compare scripted events that we have no control over? Take it up with the writers. It's out of our hands. They gave us no way to change it. This is DA2 not Origins.

[Torax]

Addai67 wrote...

Tumedus wrote...
 And we learn that abominations in the clan are not unheard of, so the clan's unwillingness to hear you out is their own pride, anger and foolishness taking shape.

When do you hear that?

When Merrill first uses magic and you question her. You can ask about Keepers and Demons. She says how it can happen. If it does happen the clan must then hunt down and kill their own Keeper. So to a point could argue that that Hawke and Company did them a service. I'm mostly amused how the voice of reason isn't one of the bitter old guys. It's Fenarel.

[Addai]

Torax wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Tumedus wrote...
 And we learn that abominations in the clan are not unheard of, so the clan's unwillingness to hear you out is their own pride, anger and foolishness taking shape.

When do you hear that?

When Merrill first uses magic and you question her. You can ask about Keepers and Demons. She says how it can happen. If it does happen the clan must then hunt down and kill their own Keeper. So to a point could argue that that Hawke and Company did them a service. I'm mostly amused how the voice of reason isn't one of the bitter old guys. It's Fenarel.

That is talking about the Dalish in general, not her clan specifically.

[Addai]

Torax wrote...

I can see the "Merrill didn't do it" argument which gets us no where. Of course she was not in control of the Keeper. Things of that nature. So what is the attempt of all this? To put the blame on one character for the actions of others? To try and compare scripted events that we have no control over? Take it up with the writers. It's out of our hands. They gave us no way to change it. This is DA2 not Origins.

We're discussing the character's weaknesses, which is part of the story.  I'm not saying I want the writers to change the story.  I'm saying I don't like Merrill because of a, b, c.  I don't demand of a story that I have to like all the characters or approve of their actions.  I just don't have a lot of empathy with what Merrill was trying to do (to put it mildly).

[grimjac100]

[/quote]
We're discussing the character's weaknesses, which is part of the story.  I'm not saying I want the writers to change the story.  I'm saying I don't like Merrill because of a, b, c.  I don't demand of a story that I have to like all the characters or approve of their actions.  I just don't have a lot of empathy with what Merrill was trying to do (to put it mildly).[/quote]

Well, Addai, I can't fault you for that. I suspect we all have companions we don't like. A parallel is I can't stand Fenris, because after we go out of our way to help him, he calls Bethany a viper. It doesn't matter his rationale or experiences...it struck a wrong chord with me and I have had him in the party maybe twice since getting the game. Likewise Izzy...just can't put a lot of effort or interest into her because I know she's going to screw me over (for an even dumber reason than any of the others..."Gosh, Hawke, you've killed dragons and major demons, but I'm gonna steal this relic and cause a war because some smuggler threatened me!").

DIfferent people see things differently. Personally, I can understand Merrill's perspective better than I can Izzy's or Ander's.

Unfortunately, this being a video game, it's hard to divorce the characters from the technical aspects of the game...that's my complaint with the Fade Dreamer quest. The characters fell before the technical aspects. I dislike using the term `immersion' because I'm well aware this is a video game and I'm *not* Hawke and the companions don't really exist...but within the context of the story, paired with the technical aspects that let us influence it...the betrayals don't make sense to me. For me, it makes one of the more fun and interesting aspects of the game...the friendship/rivalry scale...meaningless. And no, that doesn't just apply to Merrill, but any of the characters who betray you when you've spent time, effort, and money winning their friendship.

But it is what it is, and I'm still having fun playing with different builds and companion mixes. For me, Merrill is pretty much a constant companion, along with Varric and usually Aveline. I can understand their motivations; the only reason to switch out other companions (again, only for my playstyle) is to run around town hearing the banter when I'm bored.

Honestly, if you think about it logically, in the sense of the game world...none of it makes any real sense. You're killing blood mages and demons practically from the start, with random strangers you meet on the street. So why, exactly, is everyone afraid of demons and blood-mages? Have the guard round up a few of the hundreds of gang members constantly jumping you at night, sic them on whatever blood-mage or demon is currently causing trouble. Heck, open a huge portal to the Fade and have the gang-members take the war to the demons. Even with Merrill's eluvian in the mix...meh. Whatever comes, we'll kick its butt. That's what we do. That's all we do.

[Killjoy Cutter]

grimjac100 wrote...

Addai67, Vhalkyrie...I call it sloppy writing because it's what is known as `keystoning'. No matter what was done prior, *this* effect will happen. You can have 100% friendship/love/loyalty/etc with any given character and because the `script' reads this character will betray you...they betray you. This keystone incident goes against one of the core elements of the game: the whole friendship scale. What's the point of having this element if it means nothing?

It should not have been difficult to adapt the code so that if your friendship is X, then betrayal isn't possible. Lets face it, the Fade quest didn't impact the game as a whole; it doesn't change the choice between templars/mages. You literally have no control; it may as well have been a custscene and removed even the illusion of choice. They made Anders immune for reasons that make sense in the context of the story. We know from the start he is essentially possessed, so his actions throughout hang together in a logical fashion.

Having Merrill, or any other character you have worked to raise friendship with, betray you without any alternative...yes, that's bad writing. Not for a movie, perhaps; definitely for a videogame where our choices are supposed to impact the outcome. As I said, it shouldn't be impossible or even difficult to code, so failure to do so is lazy, sloppy, bad, and a bunch of other negative terms. To me, as with killjoy, it shows the writers were only interested in emphasizing how `dangerous' demons are, which is kind of silly since the entire game is based around us turning hordes of them into inert ectoplasm. Honestly, if these demons are so tough, why, after each betrayal, do we and our now-diminished party tear them apart?

Now that that dead horse is sufficiently beaten...on to the next ailing equine.

We're given NO reason to expect the eluvian is inherently evil. The opposition of Maratheri and the Dalish to Merrill's desire to repair it makes no sense. We can *assume* Maratheri turned the Dalish against Merrill's plans and actively worked to prevent the eluvian's repair. The underlying reason Maratheri was so opposed is never given; whatever she says has to be discounted because we don't know when she took the demon inside herself. Again, we can assume the opposition started prior to Merrill first interacting with the demon, but there's no answer as to *why* Maratheri was opposed, in direct contrast to the role of a Keeper. Did Maratheri have some direct knowledge of the eluvian's evil? If so, why didn't she simply tell Merrill? "Yes, the eluvian was created as a weapon in order to make summoning demons easier. Our ancestors were stupid enough back then to think they could control demons, and that's why our civilization fell."

Any of us with kids know darn well the quickest way to get a kid interested in something is to tell them they shouldn't be.

Now, I liked Maratheri as a character, but I think she's a perfect example of someone heading to hell greased with her good intentions. She may have had very valid reasons for not wanting the eluvian repaired, but the methods she chose weren't very smart. If your teenage daughter expresses an interest in sex, you sit down and have The Talk with her, including discussion of condoms and birth control. You don't put her out on the street and have everyone else in your family call her a s*ut.

Because if you do the latter, she may do just as Merrill did: find herself a big mean talented guy who's on her side...to your entire family's dismay.

So much all of this.

You nail the poor writing issue, and several of Merethari's faults.

[steve lin]

grimjac100 wrote...
Honestly, if you think about it logically, in the sense of the game world...none of it makes any real sense. You're killing blood mages and demons practically from the start, with random strangers you meet on the street. So why, exactly, is everyone afraid of demons and blood-mages? Have the guard round up a few of the hundreds of gang members constantly jumping you at night, sic them on whatever blood-mage or demon is currently causing trouble. Heck, open a huge portal to the Fade and have the gang-members take the war to the demons. Even with Merrill's eluvian in the mix...meh. Whatever comes, we'll kick its butt. That's what we do. That's all we do.

this is true, and DA2 maybe consider for combat fun more.

so, a true blood mage is as Idunna in the blooming house.
a true demon is as Caress--a desire demon.

I see a RPG game often have many small battles.
if we cut the small meaningless battles, and put more efforts in a character's description such as Idunna, Caress or Hawke with his/her specialization. I think the RPG will be much better than now.

Modifié par steve lin, 02 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[steve lin]

grimjac100 wrote...
Having Merrill, or any other character you have worked to raise friendship with, betray you without any alternative...yes, that's bad writing. Not for a movie, perhaps; definitely for a videogame where our choices are supposed to impact the outcome. As I said, it shouldn't be impossible or even difficult to code, so failure to do so is lazy, sloppy, bad, and a bunch of other negative terms. To me, as with killjoy, it shows the writers were only interested in emphasizing how `dangerous' demons are, which is kind of silly since the entire game is based around us turning hordes of them into inert ectoplasm. Honestly, if these demons are so tough, why, after each betrayal, do we and our now-diminished party tear them apart?

a good question!

so I think demons have weakness, such as-- a warden VS a dark spawn, a priest VS a vampire.

I used to hear David said-- a possessed mage can be undo, though the way is difficult and might be unknown by human.
that is , why my Hawke second time talks to Anders, I know Anders is possessed by a demon. because "Anders said he merges with the 'justice' cannot be undo". in addition, "a good spirit won't try to leave the Fade, and won't 'merge' with a mage".

unfortunately, the mean while, my Hawke doesn't have the option to reveal Anders' trick.

Modifié par steve lin, 02 avril 2011 - 02:47 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Yes, little innocent Merrill did nothing at all. I get it, I get it. [/thread]

And don't you try to actually trick us males into thinking with our own brains instead of just blindly falling to women charms and PuppyEyesGod doing everything Merrill wishes because she acts cute and innocent without any back thoughts, as we can see through your lies!

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 02 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[Addai]

I heard a dialogue with Merrill where she says she first took the shard because she wanted to try to find Tamlen. That redeems her a bit for me- it's probably what my Mahariel would have done, if she hadn't been dying herself and been dragged off by Duncan.

[The Baconer]

Did anyone mention how you get Friendship points from Merrill if you agree to let Torpor possess Feynriel? No?

I'll just leave that little tidbit here then...

[Kabraxal]

The Baconer wrote...

Did anyone mention how you get Friendship points from Merrill if you agree to let Torpor possess Feynriel? No?

I'll just leave that little tidbit here then...

I actually believe that was for listening to the demon's proposal, not for agreeing to anything. 

[The Baconer]

Kabraxal wrote...

I actually believe that was for listening to the demon's proposal, not for agreeing to anything. 

Nope. Listening to his proposal and turning it down gives no Rivalry or Friendship points. Accepting the deal gives Friendship points.

If Anders is in your party and fights you because you accepted Torpor's deal, and you defeat him in combat, you get another chance to make your final decision. Turning down his offer after fighting Anders nets you Rivalry points with Merrill.

[Kabraxal]

The Baconer wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

I actually believe that was for listening to the demon's proposal, not for agreeing to anything. 

Nope. Listening to his proposal and turning it down gives no Rivalry or Friendship points. Accepting the deal gives Friendship points.

If Anders is in your party and fights you because you accepted Torpor's deal, and you defeat him in combat, you get another chance to make your final decision. Turning down his offer after fighting Anders nets you Rivalry points with Merrill.

I didn't have that happen in mine... so either a bug or there is a triigger in there that you can miss.