260 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorrkit]

But why are we so quick to condemn things just because we KNOW they're dangerous? I imagine it was pretty dangerous for Columbus or whomever to sail out into the open sea trying to find the back end of India, but it paid off in the end, didn't it? OK, maybe that's not the best example, but still -- what if fixing the mirror does lead to some super awesome discovery that improves the lives of elves all over Thedas? Wouldn't it be worth the risk, at least in Merrill's eyes (or the eyes of any dedicated Dalish, for that matter)?

[Dark-sider77]

I think the situation is just about the same honestly. Hawke knows that the books summon demons to defend them, but does so any way. Hawke and any companions that are present know that failure will equal death and they accept that.

Similarly, Merrill knows that there is a chance she will be posessed during her act 3 quest. She takes Hawke along so that if she becomes an abomination she will be killed before she can harm any one. Her risks are the same as the ones Hawke takes during Forbidden Knowledge, Merrill accepts that she would be killed if the worst were to happen.

[Neesa]

The big difference being that Hawke didn't create the books in the first place and if left unchecked they still pose a great danger. Merill on the other hand is bringing about the danger and possibly leaving others to clean up her mess.

[Emperor Iaius I]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That's not the question here though. We're not talking about Marethari in specific. Marethari didn't like what Merrill was doing, sure. But neither did the rest of the Dalish, nor Isabela, nor Varric, nor Anders, nor Fenris. The question is "Why do all these people give Merrill a hard time about doing this?" The answer is "Because she wanted to stick her hand into a blender on purpose".

I'm saying that the abomination is the only source that it's a blender at all, and it's not a credible one.

Also, regarding your dialogue with Maria, you're aware that revenants and arcane horrors are pride demons, right? The danger is no different from what Hawke willfully confronts all the time.

LadyBri: The taint was removed. How can we tell? Well, Merrill's been playing with it for seven years, that's why. She doesn't look like a shriek to me.

Neesa: Danger to whom? The clan isn't even supposed to be there anymore.

The "evil tomes" don't do anything until they're disturbed. Apparently it's ok to release demons in the middle of an inhabited city, but it's not okay to partake in research that is not actually guarenteed to release a demon at all.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[Jorrkit]

It IS awfully arrogant of Hawke to just keep clicking on those books, KNOWING that demons will appear everywhere.

"Yeah, there will be demons. I've done this three or four times already, but it's no big deal. What's that? What if they kill me, my companions, and go on a rampage throughout Kirkwall? Pssh, like that would ever happen. Have you seen me? I'm battle-tested bayonets, bro."

[Neesa]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Neesa: Danger to whom? The clan isn't even supposed to be there anymore.

Oh you're right. Silly me, thinking a Dalish elf should be concerned with the shemlen living in the city nearby. Or her friends for that matter.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Hawke is creating a certain danger. This is acceptable, apparently.

Merrill is only creating a potential danger, and one she's attempted to mitigate as much as possible, on a mountain already crawling with pride demons (see: arcane horrors and revenants).

This is a complete double standard.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[LadyBri]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...


LadyBri: The taint was removed. How can we tell? Well, Merrill's been playing with it for seven years, that's why. She doesn't look like a shriek to me.

Neesa: Danger to whom? The clan isn't even supposed to be there anymore.

The "evil tomes" don't do anything until they're disturbed. Apparently it's ok to release demons in the middle of an inhabited city, but it's not okay to partake in research that is not actually guarenteed to release a demon at all.

Well obviously the mirror isn't tainted any more since Merrill discusses the cleaning powers of blood magic.  But my point is, we see in the Dalish origin just how evil that mirror is, and Merrill is right there going on the search for Tamlen with Mahariel.  The fact that she messed with that mirror at all, especially with the aid of a demon, just shocked me.  I can sympathize with her wanting to help the Dalish - I mean, who wouldn't - but she should have known that anything involving that mirror plus demons and blood magic would only lead to heartbreak and failure.  

I understand she wants to do research to help her clan and all the Dalish, but this is still very similar to Branka.  Oghren says Branka wasn't always crazy, but her trip to crazy began with a desire to use a legendary dwarven invention to bring the Dwarves back to their former glory.  Maybe Branka used to be sweet and adorable like Merrill, but of course we all know how she ended.

And as far as Hawke with the tomes, I think that was a more calculated risk.  I believe someone else made the point that we can't in good conscience just leave these tomes lying around, so if we destroy them and the demons later summoned it's better than some random person encountering the tome and unleashing horror with no one right there to stop it.

[Jorrkit]

Option D: Create a sign to place alongside the tome to warn passersby. "Do not touch this. It is bad."

[Emperor Iaius I]

Branka sacrificed her own House against the darkspawn. She used them as pawns. She wanted to throw their souls into the golems.

Are you really comparing that to the person who wanted nobody, NOBODY else to share her risks and willingly exiled herself from her clan?

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It's only evil if you use it for evil. Just as with a Harrowing, the relationship with blood magic and with demons depends on the mage's will. Has Merrill ever, ever shown anything but self-sacrifice for the good of others? She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite.

She's spent seven years in intense study. Even before then, she had a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." She's not just going on a lark.

[hoorayforicecream]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

That's not the question here though. We're not talking about Marethari in specific. Marethari didn't like what Merrill was doing, sure. But neither did the rest of the Dalish, nor Isabela, nor Varric, nor Anders, nor Fenris. The question is "Why do all these people give Merrill a hard time about doing this?" The answer is "Because she wanted to stick her hand into a blender on purpose".

I'm saying that the abomination is the only source that it's a blender at all, and it's not a credible one.

Merrill is going to deal with a demon, yes? Maybe it won't possess her. We don't know for sure. But what do we know about demons as a general rule?

1. They really like possessing people. That's their only known goal.
2. Once they have somebody possessed, they have to be killed.
3. Dealing with demons tends to end very badly for all involved

Now... dealing with demons has generally been considered a bad thing. When people deal with demons, people get possessed, and bad things happen. There are lots and lots of examples of this throughout the course of the game. It's not like half of the people who deal with demons come out ahead. There are plenty of examples of people who deal with demons and end up possessed, killed, or some combination of the two.

So why is Merrill specifically seeking out a demon that, as a general rule, gives no reason to believe it isn't out to possess someone? We've got LOTS of examples of demons that want to possess people. The reason we think it's a blender isn't just because of the demon itself, but our past experiences with demons up to this point.

Why are you so keen on thinking that dealing with demons is somehow a good idea in this case? What evidence is there that there's some positive net outcome from this? The best you've given is "Well, if Merrill gets possessed, Hawke will kill her". That's not a net positive! Where is the good that comes out of this? It's repowering the eluvian... the same device that Merrill has never even given any indication that she knows about. She doesn't know how it works. She only knows that they used to be objects of magical power. She's never said what she's going to DO with it once she gets it working.

The "evil tomes" don't do anything until they're disturbed. Apparently it's ok to release demons in the middle of an inhabited city, but it's not okay to partake in research that is not actually guarenteed to release a demon at all.

If you're going to say the evil tomes released demons in the middle of an inhabited city and don't do anything when not disturbed, I will point out that said released demons completely ignored all of the innocent people nearby and focused only on killing Hawke and her friends.

[LadyBri]

Jorrkit wrote...

Option D: Create a sign to place alongside the tome to warn passersby. "Do not touch this. It is bad."

Lol, I saw this and got a mental picture of a mechanical "Don't!" sign by Varric that hits people on the head if they try to touch the tome

[LadyBri]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Branka sacrificed her own House against the darkspawn. She used them as pawns. She wanted to throw their souls into the golems.

Are you really comparing that to the person who wanted nobody, NOBODY else to share her risks and willingly exiled herself from her clan?

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It's only evil if you use it for evil. Just as with a Harrowing, the relationship with blood magic and with demons depends on the mage's will. Has Merrill ever, ever shown anything but self-sacrifice for the good of others? She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite.

She's spent seven years in intense study. Even before then, she had a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." She's not just going on a lark.

And, depending on dialogue choices by Hawke, Merrill can get her entire clan killed.  Not to mention that Marethari sacrifices herself for Merrill, and risks the safety of the clan by staying close in case of trouble or in case Merrill changes her mind and returns home.

Yes, Merrill does not want to hurt or kill anyone, but that's what makes it more frustrating.  She doesnt' see all the people around her that care that see where her choices are leading and these people are going to jump in and take the hits for her.  Even Hawke is willing to risk him/herself and companions to go with Merrill and battle her as a possible abomination if her talk with the demon fails.  But yet she persists, even though some part of her brain must know that while she doesn't want people to sacrifice themselves for her that they are doing it anyway.

Merrill has good intentions, but that doesn't mean that what she is doing is safe or right.  She has no idea what a restored eluvian will do for the elven, and she has no idea what knowledge she can learn which can help her people.  She is guessing and desperate with hope, but logic should dictate that while her goal is noble that her path of demons, blood magic, and evil mirrors is not going to get her there in the way she intends.

[Neesa]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Hawke is creating a certain danger. This is acceptable, apparently.

Merrill is only creating a potential danger, and one she's attempted to mitigate as much as possible, on a mountain already crawling with pride demons (see: arcane horrors and revenants).

This is a complete double standard.

Hawke did not create the books so did not create the danger. Are you really asking how a book of blood magic in a city such as Kirkwall could be dangerous by merely existing? If a mage finds it they'll likely either use it, hide it ( until they're tempted) or destroy it. All of those spell trouble. If someone anti-magic finds it, their first impulse will probably be to destroy it. Again more trouble. Some smuggler finds and tries to turn a profit, etc, etc.

And how is Merill mitigating anything by adding another demon to a place already overrun with them?

[Emperor Iaius I]

Dalish mages regularly deal with demons. Mr. Gaider has said in the past that the Dalish mages are harder to possess because they encounter the more dangerous demons far more often than their Circle counterparts. Merrill knows demons are dangerous--she's maintained this the whole time.

That's not the issue. She mitigates, and then sees it as a risk worth taking.

Yes, she doesn't know how it works. That's the nature of discovery: do you think scientists know in advance what they're going to learn? Of course not! If we refused to pursue anything that we didn't know would be sucessful from the start, well, we'd probably be extinct and some other species of monkey would stand in our place.

Neesa: She's not TRYING to free the demon, silly. That's precisely what she's mitigating against. The point, though, is that her goal--reworking ancient technology--is more important than the mere potential of adding another demon to a place filled with demons. She has no intention of letting the demon have what it wants: she, in fact, criticizes Anders for naively going along with a Fade spirit.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 07:53 .

[Taura-Tierno]

Jorrkit wrote...

But why are we so quick to condemn things just because we KNOW they're dangerous? I imagine it was pretty dangerous for Columbus or whomever to sail out into the open sea trying to find the back end of India, but it paid off in the end, didn't it? OK, maybe that's not the best example, but still -- what if fixing the mirror does lead to some super awesome discovery that improves the lives of elves all over Thedas? Wouldn't it be worth the risk, at least in Merrill's eyes (or the eyes of any dedicated Dalish, for that matter)?

The difference being, that Columbus endangered himself, not everyone around him, by crossing the sea  

Is it possible that Merrill's research would've lead to something good? Sure. Entirely possible. It's still possible that she'd ended up possessed by a powerful demon that would've brought destruction, death and chaos to the world. Or unleashed something. Who knows what exists beyond the Eluvian. Is it worth the risk? No, imo. 

The Warden searching for the Eluvian was different, in that he was actually looking for Morrigan. And you did have the choice of actually stabbing Morrigan. Even if the Warden went through with her ... well, that Eluvian was already active. Also, Morrigan did seem to actually know what was on the other side, as opposed to Merrill, who just seemed to guess. 

[Jorrkit]

I imagine every new magical discovery comes with its risks. How do we suppose the Walking Bomb spell was discovered?

And, uh, smallpox, anyone?

Modifié par Jorrkit, 29 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

The difference being, that Columbus endangered himself, not everyone around him, by crossing the sea

Yeah, well, Church officials said that reading pagan texts would let demons take over the world, but it ended up leading to the Renaissance.

Or if you prefer something more "real," what about the guy who invented the internal combustion engine? I mean, his lab could have exploded. Clearly he should have stayed home.

[Taura-Tierno]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

The difference being, that Columbus endangered himself, not everyone around him, by crossing the sea

Yeah, well, Church officials said that reading pagan texts would let demons take over the world, but it ended up leading to the Renaissance.

Or if you prefer something more "real," what about the guy who invented the internal combustion engine? I mean, his lab could have exploded. Clearly he should have stayed home.

It still isn't the same, since the Eluvian could release wide-spread chaos and destruction.

Maybe it'd be more like the invention of nuclear power? Which lead to some seriously bad things (like the atomic bomb), and to some better things (nuclear power plants), although I guess whether or not any of it is good is an entirely different debate. 

[Torax]

In the end the debate is pointless.

Plot Armor requires that Hawke can summon whatever they want. Only restriction is if they fail and die they have to reload and turn down the difficulty in a worst case scenario.

Plot Armor also requires that no matter what we have to go through this supportive or not and it will end with an Abomination of a Keeper cause Bioware wanted to make Merrill have a bit more depth than just rainbows. Just like in the cause of Sigrun where you have this nice light hearted character who happened to be a castless thief turned Legion of the Dead.

Edited to add the case of Leliana, loveable and light hearted character who happened to be a Bard in her former life whose life took a darker side prior to meeting the pc. It's a veil of being more complex. Sten is the opposite. Dark and serious but hides this softie side that is pointed out by Leliana in giggles.

Modifié par Torax, 29 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Hawke is trying to destroy the demons. Merrill is trying to make a deal with one.

[Torax]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hawke is trying to destroy the demons. Merrill is trying to make a deal with one.

Trying to a make a deal? She admitts early on to making a deal with one in the past.

[Vhalkyrie]

Torax wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hawke is trying to destroy the demons. Merrill is trying to make a deal with one.

Trying to a make a deal? She admitts early on to making a deal with one in the past.

Yes, she was already guilty.  She was going back to Sundermount because she wanted more information about how to make the Eluvian work.  Presumably to make another deal.

[Torax]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Torax wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Hawke is trying to destroy the demons. Merrill is trying to make a deal with one.

Trying to a make a deal? She admitts early on to making a deal with one in the past.

Yes, she was already guilty.  She was going back to Sundermount because she wanted more information about how to make the Eluvian work.  Presumably to make another deal.

Have to give the writers some credit. They made a character's story in such a way that many seem to want to debate and question a lot. Meaning that there isn't truly a perfect blue and red answer here. The only flaw I have in it is that the story ends at the same result besides whether or not merrill is still working on the mirror w/ blood magic.

The Keeper and her clan would have known about the deal with the demon she made before. The demon infact would have probably bragged about it to the Keeper to make her even more protective. Either way, we have no idea what the original deal was between the Demon and Merrill. We are just informed that she learned Blood Magic from said Demon to cleanse the mirror. She trusted the Demon would know how to fix it because it claimed to have watched an Eluvian being crafted.

Who is telling the truth and who isn't? The writers will know what they consider to be Canon or not. What the players read it as is the really compeling part. By not making a clear straight line and a good and evil response it can allow the player to add even more imagination and depth to the motivations of the PC and their companions.

[Vhalkyrie]

Torax wrote...

Have to give the writers some credit. They made a character's story in such a way that many seem to want to debate and question a lot. Meaning that there isn't truly a perfect blue and red answer here. The only flaw I have in it is that the story ends at the same result besides whether or not merrill is still working on the mirror w/ blood magic.

The Keeper and her clan would have known about the deal with the demon she made before. The demon infact would have probably bragged about it to the Keeper to make her even more protective. Either way, we have no idea what the original deal was between the Demon and Merrill. We are just informed that she learned Blood Magic from said Demon to cleanse the mirror. She trusted the Demon would know how to fix it because it claimed to have watched an Eluvian being crafted.

Who is telling the truth and who isn't? The writers will know what they consider to be Canon or not. What the players read it as is the really compeling part. By not making a clear straight line and a good and evil response it can allow the player to add even more imagination and depth to the motivations of the PC and their companions.

I'm on the beginning of my 4th playthrough.  Flemeth gives a prophesy to Merrill on Sundermount.  "Take care, child.  No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:52 .