260 réponses à ce sujet

[Torax]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I'm on the beginning of my 4th playthrough.  Flemeth gives a prophesy to Merrill on Sundermount.  "Take care, child.  No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."

Each of Flemeth's designed predictions work. For example telling the sibling about regret. The rest is just her reading into the companions that question her like Anders and Isabela. She sees right through both of them. Especially Anders and Justice.

To the sibling;

Flemeth: Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul. When the time comes for your regrets, remember me.

To Anders;

Hawke: "What do you think, Anders?"
Anders: "What are you? A spirit? An abomination? This is no magic I've ever seen!"
Flemeth: "(Laughs) And you would know of spirits and abominations."
Anders: "I'm a mage. Of course I know of such things!"
Flemeth: "Of course!"
Flemeth: "I am a fly in the ointment. I am a whisper in the shadows. I am also an old, old woman. More than that you need not know."

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Because summoning Xebenkek was an accident. Hawke accidentally summoned Xebenkek by *destroying* the evil tomes and fell grimoire. Similarly with the Awiergen scrolls, Hawke ran around killing all of the demons and undead at the hidden lairs. They were already there, Hawke just found them and put them down. It passes the "reasonable person" test... if you ask somebody whether destroying evil tomes would cause a malevolent demon to be released, would a reasonable person say "yes"? Probably not.

Merrill doesn't get the same pass because she does it on purpose. It doesn't pass the reasonable person test... would a reasonable person say "yes" to the question "Would summoning a demon, which have long histories of possessing people who deal with them, be a good idea if it meant repowering a magical mirror whose purpose is still unknown?" I don't think a reasonable person would say yes.

Is this the same "reasonable person test" we can apply to the Warden, who went into the Frostback Mountains during the Fifth Blight, despite the fact that the journey have left Ferelden defenseless against the darkspawn horde and with no Warden to stop the Archdemon? Or is this the "reasonable person test" we can apply to our current protagonist Hawke, who ventures into the darkspawn infested Deep Roads with his companions in order to get rich, so he can buy a mansion and be a noble?

Since the Dalish are focused on restoring their lost lore, why wouldn't Merrill want to restore one of the remaining remnants of Arlathan? And regarding your comments on Hawke, he is doing it in purpose - he's purposefully going (with his companions) into dangerous areas and putting their lives at risk and fighting dragons, demons, abominations, and other types of antagonists. It's no different than what Merrill does when she asks Hawke to kill her if she is defeated by the demon Audacity - she's essentially asking him to fill the role of the Dalish when their Keeper becomes an abomination, because she's taking a risk that she believes will benefit her people (which is similar to the risk Hawke ventures into when he and his companions go into the Deep Roads).

Valentia X wrote...

Blood magic is a no-no, even amoung the Dalish. Merrill went against the grain in the worst possible way. 

So do the Grey Warden mages, in the name of a greater good. It's no different than Merrill who does the same - in her quest to restore the Eluvian and reclaim the lost knowledge of Arlathan.

[LobselVith8]

LadyBri wrote...

How bad can an eluvian be? Let's ask Tamlen, or Warden Mahariel, or resurrect Duncan to expound on why destroying an evil tainted mirror is a necessity.

It's no longer tainted. And we can always ask the Hero of Ferelden or Morrigan how useful the Eluvian can be, or we can ask Finn whether a tainted shard of the Eluvian can be handled properly.

LadyBri wrote...

Maybe not all eluvians are evil, however, anyone who played DA:O Dalish origin (even more relevant than Witch Hunt, imo), knows that particular eluvian is definitely not good. In fact, I believe Duncan said no one should even go near the entire ruin without first cleansing it with fire because the mirror was that virulent.

It's the shard of that very Eluvian Finn uses to find the one located in the Dragonbone Wastes.

LadyBri wrote...

I love Merrill's character - she is sweet, funny, and adorable. However, her obsession with this mirror and talking with a demon has the potential to destroy not only her awesome Keeper but her entire clan (depending on Hawke's lines, of course).

The only thing that would destroy her clan is their stupidity in trying to murder her in cold blood when the Champion is standing right there.

LadyBri wrote...

Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

Merrill doesn't sacrifice anyone for her goals, she's only willing to risk herself.

Neesa wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Neesa: Danger to whom? The clan isn't even supposed to be there anymore.

Oh you're right. Silly me, thinking a Dalish elf should be concerned with the shemlen living in the city nearby. Or her friends for that matter.

And how would they be in danger if Hawke kills Merrill if she became an abomination, especially when this wouldn't be the first time Hawke has killed a Pride Demon or an abomination?

[tmp7704]

DeaHamlet wrote...

The warden can go chasing an eluvian like it's not going to eat her and the rest of the world.  She can also let Morrigan through it or even follow her.  Oh man, how bad can the eluvian be?

The mirror the Warden finds and deals with doesn't have pride demon attached to it.

Hawke releasing demons into the world is on Merrill's level of stupid, yes. That doesn't make what Merrill does any smarter, though.

[Corker]

LobselVith8 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...

Maybe not all eluvians are evil, however, anyone who played DA:O Dalish origin (even more relevant than Witch Hunt, imo), knows that particular eluvian is definitely not good. In fact, I believe Duncan said no one should even go near the entire ruin without first cleansing it with fire because the mirror was that virulent.

It's the shard of that very Eluvian Finn uses to find the one located in the Dragonbone Wastes.

You're both right?  Finn, Ariane and the Warden go into and out of the ruins unscathed (for that matter, so does Merrill and potentially Fenarel in the DE origin), but the ruins are filled with elven ghouls - tainted by the mirror, one would think. 

Perhaps it's like radiation, and you have to get a large enough dose before anything bad happens.  Tamlen released a large burst of taint, which sickened Mahariel instantly.  Anyone else has to hang around the ruins for a bit before they get sickened.

[DeaHamlet]

I go to bed leaving some thoughts behind and 3 pages follow . This is awesome. Thank you everyone for the thoughts and debate, it's very insightful.

I think it a tad unfair that Hawke can choose to be:
1. a blood mage
2. give over people to demons in deals with them (Feynriel to name one)
3. read tomes for benefits (and spawn demons as a result)
to name just a few things that others get ****ed at for in game.
And yet nobody tells them they're a menace to society much. Anders is one to react if you have him with you and make a deal with Topor... he will end a romance and he will be pissed, but he can still remain your friend, eventually.

I know some people choose for their Hawke to do things for the right reason... but even for the right reason, disturbing tomes that will call forth demons with only 4 people to fight them is, to say the least, unwise. Perhaps an army of templars to be safe? *shrug* But the point is... Hawke can choose to be a total menace, a selfish ****** and a blood mage making deals with demons... but Merrill gets all the hate from companions (and ahem gamers).

Also, I think... many do not contend with the fact that she is dalish, she has different views of the fade than humans do. I find her a compelling character either way, I think it says much about how great a character is written when people can see such different things in one character and their actions.

Also the comparison to Branka is unwarranted. If anyone, it is the keeper who willingly chooses to take a demon in to protect Merrill and keeps her clan so close to the hellhole that Kirkwall area seems to be. Can we really hold Merrill responsible for the choices the keeper makes? I personally do not think so. The keeper is a strong and mature woman with a head on her shoulder. She makes her own decisions for her own reasons. And she has nobody but herself to blame for these decisions.

Again, everyone's posts were so interesting, I love debates like this. And wow, everyone is so civil!!!

[Vhalkyrie]

Merrill was putting everyone at risk for her goals. Believing she could do otherwise was keeping her eyes wide shut. A good chess player can anticipate several scenarios and moves in advance. Merrill only saw one happy little path where she could control the demon and the outcome. She failed to anticipate the demon's move in possessing Merethari. Merethari never would have accepted the demon's offer, if Merrill wasn't in harm's way. Love for Merrill was Merethari's weakness the demon exploited.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 02:27 .

[Beerfish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

demon summoning tomes will be filled with cookies and milk.

Ah yes the Cookies and Milk demons, by far the worst type of desire demons.

[Vhalkyrie]

Beerfish wrote...
Ah yes the Cookies and Milk demons, by far the worst type of desire demons.

Indeed.  The cookies and milk demon should be at the top of the hierarchy.  Who would resist?

[LobselVith8]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Merrill was putting everyone at risk for her goals.

Merrill put herself in harms way when it came to Act III and going to Sundermount to deal with Audacity. If you mean she put Hawke in harms way by asking him to kill her the moment she turned into an abomination if she failed, it's no different than when the Warden put companions in harms way on the way to gather allies since they were constantly exposed to darkspawn blood, or when Hawke goes into the Deep Roads for financial gain. Merrill is trying to restore technology that she believes will help her people - I see it as a worthy goal.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Believing she could do otherwise was keeping her eyes wide shut. A good chess player can anticipate several scenarios and moves in advance. Merrill only saw one happy little path where she could control the demon and the outcome. She failed to anticipate the demon's move in possessing Merethari.

There's a difference between planning for the inevitable (which is what she did when she got Hawke to accompany her) and knowing the future. You can't blame Merrill for not having insight into future events. There's only so much you can prepare for.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Merethari never would have accepted the demon's offer, if Merrill wasn't in harm's way. Love for Merrill was Merethari's weakness the demon exploited.

Marethari is responsible for her own actions; she was an adult who had a responsibility to her clan. You seem to be blaming Merrill for Marethari's actions.

[Vhalkyrie]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's a difference between planning for the inevitable (which is what she did when she got Hawke to accompany her) and knowing the future. You can't blame Merrill for not having insight into future events. There's only so much you can prepare for.

Marethari is responsible for her own actions; she was an adult who had a responsibility to her clan. You seem to be blaming Merrill for Marethari's actions.

Not at all.  Merrill and Merethari are both responsible for their actions.  They both share fault for putting their personal agendas above the clan.  Merrill in obsession with the mirror.  Merethari in her love for Merrill.  Neither were putting the best interests of the clan first.

You are saying Merrill is not responsible for her actions, but Merethari is responsible for hers.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 03:33 .

[Torax]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's a difference between planning for the inevitable (which is what she did when she got Hawke to accompany her) and knowing the future. You can't blame Merrill for not having insight into future events. There's only so much you can prepare for.

Marethari is responsible for her own actions; she was an adult who had a responsibility to her clan. You seem to be blaming Merrill for Marethari's actions.

Not at all  Merrill and Merethari are both responsible for their actions.

You are saying Merrill is not responsible for her actions, but Merethari is responsible for hers.

It's why these sorts of arguments go no where. Points are debate are okay. But it's stuck with trying to blame a character protected by a plot we cannot effect? It's going to go nowhere. They're both at fault. They're both written to reach a final outcome as long as you accept and complete said quests. There is only one change, whether you Rivaled her or Friended her. Written to have her basically lose everything and destroy the Eluvian or have her except that the keeper died to protect her, but maybe she can find a new to way to make it work.

Whose to blame? Both are. You can't write one off of it. Trying to compare the PC's scripted enemies versus companion scripted conflicts? Why bother. They're both scripted. Almost no decision in them and your lucky if you get to decide anything beyond Red = Dead...

Modifié par Torax, 29 mars 2011 - 03:35 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax, the point is that Marethari and Merrill are responsible for their own actions. I see no reason to blame Merrill for what Marethari does. They're both adults. The only issue I addressed for Marethari is her neglecting her active responsibilities as Keeper of the clan. Merrill already was an exile from her clan and reveals they should have left Sundermount years ago.

[Dan-mac RI]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Merrill was putting everyone at risk for her goals. Believing she could do otherwise was keeping her eyes wide shut. A good chess player can anticipate several scenarios and moves in advance. Merrill only saw one happy little path where she could control the demon and the outcome. She failed to anticipate the demon's move in possessing Merethari. Merethari never would have accepted the demon's offer, if Merrill wasn't in harm's way. Love for Merrill was Merethari's weakness the demon exploited.

Merrill had one scenario played out a thousand different ways. That's why she brings Hawke as insurance.

Wouldn't it seem that Marethari is easily tricked and perhaps a bit of a hypocrite? I mean, she scolds Merrill for dealing with demons... and then makes a deal with a demon for Merrill's safety which actually puts Merrill in a ton of danger having to fight a very powerful abomination with the added stress of that abomination being someone she still loved. Ultimately she failed in protecting Merrill from a demon because she had to fight it anyway which could have ended the same; with Merrill dead. Fact is, the best chance for a happy ending was Merrill stopping, but aside from that, the best chance was letting her combat the demon with a more level head than Marethari had, blinded by love as she was.

[ejoslin]

I got the impression that the demon called to Merrill in her sleep, Merrill responded, and it was the demon that was driving her -- it was what was behind her obsession. She went from being a person who was charged with protecting her clan to one who was willing to give up everyone and everything she believed, and she wasn't quite sure what she'd even accomplish.

[Vhalkyrie]

If you read the Bioware teaser short stories, the demon called out to both Merethari and Merrill in their dreams. Merrill also says this during party banter if you take Fenris with you in Act 3. Merethari told the demon to go away. It turned to Merrill and told her he could help her fix the eluvian, and it could tell her the real story of the fall of Arlathan. It gave her a vision of the Arlathan empire across Thedas, the golden age of her people.

She wanted it more than anything.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/6046067/1#6046151

Merethari was not easily tricked.  She refused.  Merrill is the one who started walking down the path. 

The demon still ended up dead.  Merethari's plan *was* for Hawke to kill her and it.  The only difference is, the demon is dead, and the Eluvian is not fixed.

Merethari possessed = Hawke kills Merethari.  Merrill possessed = Hawke kills Merrill.  The outcome is the same, with the difference being the state of the eluvian.

When you were walking up Sundermount, did you not get the feeling something terrible was going to happen?

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 06:03 .

[LobselVith8]

Merrill wanted to restore the fallen civilization of Arlathan. However, we have no idea what would have happened between Audacity and Merrill in Act III, and Marethari accepting a demon into her might have been Audacity's plan all along.

[Dan-mac RI]

Yeah, but I always get that feeling walking up sundermount. Like the story says, it really is a pretty creepy mountain.

[ejoslin]

Oh, yeh, the veil is all messed up. My only point (and I made it badly) was that Merrill I think was under the influence of a demon. That her obsession was caused by the demon. That it was not HER so much that wanted this. She didn't even realize how much the demon had already taken over her thoughts and wants and needs.

[Torax]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

Yeah, but I always get that feeling walking up sundermount. Like the story says, it really is a pretty creepy mountain.

I always get the feeling of "Man I wish they didn't look so different." and followed by "Wow when did Master Ilen & Hahren Paivel turn into douches?"

[Killjoy Cutter]

Valentia X wrote...

Blood magic is a no-no, even amoung the Dalish. Merrill went against the grain in the worst possible way.

Hawke destroying the books had a consequence a reasonable person could not foresee; it's not like burning a book regularly spawns demons of rage, even in their universe. Merrill is playing with fire, and she knows it.


But I admit to being biased. I really don't like Merrill at all.

So... Hawke had no idea that doing anything other than leaving the books perfectly alone would summon a swarm of demons.  Maybe after 1 or 2... but it's 5 or 6 if you include the last one.  Hawke has to have a handle on what's going to happen as soon as he disturbs that book from #3 onwards.

[ejoslin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Blood magic is a no-no, even amoung the Dalish. Merrill went against the grain in the worst possible way.

Hawke destroying the books had a consequence a reasonable person could not foresee; it's not like burning a book regularly spawns demons of rage, even in their universe. Merrill is playing with fire, and she knows it.


But I admit to being biased. I really don't like Merrill at all.

So... Hawke had no idea that doing anything other than leaving the books perfectly alone would summon a swarm of demons.  Maybe after 1 or 2... but it's 5 or 6 if you include the last one.  Hawke has to have a handle on what's going to happen as soon as he disturbs that book from #3 onwards.

I think the major difference is Hawke hasn't made a deal with a demon.

[LobselVith8]

Do we even know what her prior conversation with Audacity concerned, besides cleansing the Eluvian of the taint? That always seemed to be the focus - removing the taint from the shard she had.

[DoNotIngest]

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the veil is all messed up. My only point (and I made it badly) was that Merrill I think was under the influence of a demon. That her obsession was caused by the demon. That it was not HER so much that wanted this. She didn't even realize how much the demon had already taken over her thoughts and wants and needs.

Which is obviously why she just HAD to lug that, what, 400 pound solid metal mirror across Ferelden, across a sea (Pricey!), and up a mountain. Or did the mighty demon just send its thoughts out worldwide and they just happened to settle on Merrill?

Keep in mind, Marethari was fine helping Merrill tote this thing around. Not like she could have without the help of Clan & Co.

[ejoslin]

DoNotIngest wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the veil is all messed up. My only point (and I made it badly) was that Merrill I think was under the influence of a demon. That her obsession was caused by the demon. That it was not HER so much that wanted this. She didn't even realize how much the demon had already taken over her thoughts and wants and needs.

Which is obviously why she just HAD to lug that, what, 400 pound solid metal mirror across Ferelden, across a sea (Pricey!), and up a mountain. Or did the mighty demon just send its thoughts out worldwide and they just happened to settle on Merrill?

Keep in mind, Marethari was fine helping Merrill tote this thing around. Not like she could have without the help of Clan & Co.

But Merrill did respond to a demon -- that's what started the whole thing.  As far as the feasibility, I have no clue.  None of that is really explained.  Maybe the clan lugged it before the demon called. Marathari was disappointed in the Dalish origins that it was broken to begin with -- she wanted to study it.  It's also not really explained how it got to her house in the alienage.  Marathari at that point was warning the clan away from her and trying to get her not to pursue the whole thing.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2011 - 07:16 .