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[Torax]

DoNotIngest wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the veil is all messed up. My only point (and I made it badly) was that Merrill I think was under the influence of a demon. That her obsession was caused by the demon. That it was not HER so much that wanted this. She didn't even realize how much the demon had already taken over her thoughts and wants and needs.

Which is obviously why she just HAD to lug that, what, 400 pound solid metal mirror across Ferelden, across a sea (Pricey!), and up a mountain. Or did the mighty demon just send its thoughts out worldwide and they just happened to settle on Merrill?

Keep in mind, Marethari was fine helping Merrill tote this thing around. Not like she could have without the help of Clan & Co.

"I don't know. It's a nice story, but I think it's got some holes." 

[DoNotIngest]

Torax wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Oh, yeh, the veil is all messed up. My only point (and I made it badly) was that Merrill I think was under the influence of a demon. That her obsession was caused by the demon. That it was not HER so much that wanted this. She didn't even realize how much the demon had already taken over her thoughts and wants and needs.

Which is obviously why she just HAD to lug that, what, 400 pound solid metal mirror across Ferelden, across a sea (Pricey!), and up a mountain. Or did the mighty demon just send its thoughts out worldwide and they just happened to settle on Merrill?

Keep in mind, Marethari was fine helping Merrill tote this thing around. Not like she could have without the help of Clan & Co.

"I don't know. It's a nice story, but I think it's got some holes." 

"But Merrill did respond to a demon -- that's what started the whole thing.  As far as the feasibility, I have no clue.  None of that is really explained.  Maybe the clan lugged it before the demon called. Marathari was disappointed in the Dalish origins that it was broken to begin with -- she wanted to study it.  It's also not really explained how it got to her house in the alienage.  Marathari at that point was warning the clan away from her and trying to get her not to pursue the whole thing."



Aha, I win! +1 for Merrill!

[Vhalkyrie]

Oof. Who lugs around anything weighing 400 lbs when you can just use magic?

Blood magic is forbidden, even among the Dalish. The deal the demon made was to teach Merrill blood magic in order to cleanse the taint from the shard. Whether you personally believe blood magic is ok or not, to the Dalish it is abhorrent. Unforgivable. So the price was, the demon got Merrill to do something she would not normally do, in order to get what she wanted - a "cleansed" shard.  That was the deal.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[DoNotIngest]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Oof. Who lugs around anything weighing 400 lbs when you can just use magic?

Blood magic is forbidden, even among the Dalish. The deal the demon made was to teach Merrill blood magic in order to cleanse the taint from the shard. Whether you personally believe blood magic is ok or not, to the Dalish it is abhorrent. Unforgivable. So the price was, the demon got Merrill to do something she would not normally do, in order to get what she wanted - a "cleansed" shard.  That was the deal.

Pffft, magic? You'd need a herd of elephants to get enough blood to magic that thing around.



Edit: And can you imagine if the "Magicker's" concentration wavered? Two weeks in, halfway to Kirkwall: "Oooh, is that a butterfly?" *Mirror crushes Pol*

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 29 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[TheAwesomologist]

I gotta say this is my favorite conundrum in DA2. In the end I always help Merrill, she's always there to help Hawke.

[Vhalkyrie]

Edit: And can you imagine if the "Magicker's" concentration wavered? Two weeks in, halfway to Kirkwall: "Oooh, is that a butterfly?" *Mirror crushes Pol*

What do you think happened to the halla? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

If you read the Bioware teaser short stories, the demon called out to both Merethari and Merrill in their dreams.

Same thing I've said about the ME comics and novels: Not in the game, didn't happen. 

[Vhalkyrie]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

If you read the Bioware teaser short stories, the demon called out to both Merethari and Merrill in their dreams.

Same thing I've said about the ME comics and novels: Not in the game, didn't happen. 

In this case, it did happen in game too.  If you take Fenris with you, he asks her how she found this demon.  She says it called to her and Merethari in their dreams.

[ejoslin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

If you read the Bioware teaser short stories, the demon called out to both Merethari and Merrill in their dreams.

Same thing I've said about the ME comics and novels: Not in the game, didn't happen. 

Edit: From the talk table, but I've heard this in game.

{6143045}It's beyond the graveyard. Rather far, I'm afraid.

{6143048}And you went up there alone last time? Despite undead and giant bug-like things roaming this place?

{6143051}No. The first time the Keeper went with me, we both heard the spirit's call. She wanted to be sure the clan was safe.

{6143054}It was the second time I came here alone.

{6143057}He called out... from his prison. The Keeper and I heard him in our dreams.

{6143060}A demon called to you, and you answered. Brilliant.

{6143063}The spirit is trapped in there. He can't get back to the Fade.

{6143066}And you don't suspect he might think you're a way out of his cave?

{6143069}Of course I do! That's why you and Hawke are coming with me.

{6143072}That's where he's supposed to be, but this spirit was trapped here long ago.

{6143075}A trapped, cornered demon? Better and better.

Edit: This is not the only banter in the game about her making deals with a demon.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[GSSAGE7]

The warden can go chasing an eluvian like it's not going to eat her and the rest of the world.  She can also let Morrigan through it or even follow her.  Oh man, how bad can the eluvian be?

The Warden went through a different eluvian. I always assumed that the problem wasn't repairing an eluvian, but repairing that particular one, which was tainted. If you played the Dalish Warden origin, you'll know what I mean, considering it turns Tamlen into a ghoul, and almost does the same to the potential Warden, if only because Duncan does what Stroud is too proud to do.

[Vhalkyrie]

Besides, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan hunts down a *working* eluvian. One that isn't tainted. Duncan says in the Dalish Origin story that once the mirror is tainted, it is forever tainted. It cannot be fixed.

There are lots of broken eluvians.  If it was possible to fix, Morrigan would have done it.  She went through a lot of trouble to find a working eluvian, of which there aren't many left.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Kabraxal]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Besides, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan hunts down a *working* eluvian. One that isn't tainted. Duncan says in the Dalish Origin story that once the mirror is tainted, it is forever tainted. It cannot be fixed.

And Duncan knows all and is always right... if he truly understood the taints as well as Duncan would like some to believe, the Blight and taints and demons would be no problem.

[DoNotIngest]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Besides, in Witch Hunt, Morrigan hunts down a *working* eluvian. One that isn't tainted. Duncan says in the Dalish Origin story that once the mirror is tainted, it is forever tainted. It cannot be fixed.

What makes Duncan the world's brightest Dalish scolar? Considering apparently nobody else knows anything about Eluvians, or is unwilling to tell, isn't it a bit presumptuous to assume the guy who was given 30 years of Grey Warden life somehow managed to become the world's Living Dalish Tome in the spare time when he wasn't sleeping, recruiting Wardens or perfecting his sword-twirling?

[Vhalkyrie]

Oh maker.

Broken eluvians are tainted. Yes, I think he would know something about that.

[Kabraxal]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Oh maker.

Broken eluvians are tainted. Yes, I think he would know something about that.

Not saying he doesn't know anything.  I am saying that he doesn't know it all, so he could well be wrong on how long the taint lasts or the methods to eliminate or cleanse it.  Seriously, it isn't that hard to know something is dangerous and be able to deal with it in one way, but that doesn't mean it is the best method or the right one.

[DoNotIngest]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Oh maker.

Broken eluvians are tainted. Yes, I think he would know something about that.

So, when an Eluvian "breaks", a Hurlock runs up and vomits on it? Very nice. Duncan must have an Eluvian Repair Shop in his office, being such a Loremaster on Eluvians.

[Vhalkyrie]

DoNotIngest wrote...

So, when an Eluvian "breaks", a Hurlock runs up and vomits on it? Very nice. Duncan must have an Eluvian Repair Shop in his office, being such a Loremaster on Eluvians.

Obviously did not play the Dalish origin story.  That's not far off from what happened.

[Torax]

Duncan is basically the Cardinal Rule for Origins. Also keep in mind during the Magi Origin, after he's escorted to his room? You'll find him studying in the Library. He just doesn't tell you what he was looking for. He's a busy and smart man who has seen more in his life than many other humans and lived to tell the tale. Until Ostagar

[DoNotIngest]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

So, when an Eluvian "breaks", a Hurlock runs up and vomits on it? Very nice. Duncan must have an Eluvian Repair Shop in his office, being such a Loremaster on Eluvians.

Obviously did not play the Dalish origin story.  That's not far off from what happened.

Ah. I missed the sickly Hurlock, then. All I recall is a random mirror in some ruins infested with critters, Duncan walking in and saying "Yeeep, there's your problem. Tainted mirror." *Smash* "Let's go, kiddies."

I don't debate whether or not he used his Tingly Warden Senses to find out whether or not it was tainted; I just don't recall there being mention of any Eluvian book except for one, and certainly nothing as specific as "101 Ways to Improperly Cure Darkspawn Taint from an Eluvian".

[Vhalkyrie]

DoNotIngest wrote...
Ah. I missed the sickly Hurlock, then. All I recall is a random mirror in some ruins infested with critters, Duncan walking in and saying "Yeeep, there's your problem. Tainted mirror." *Smash* "Let's go, kiddies."

I don't debate whether or not he used his Tingly Warden Senses to find out whether or not it was tainted; I just don't recall there being mention of any Eluvian book except for one, and certainly nothing as specific as "101 Ways to Improperly Cure Darkspawn Taint from an Eluvian".

It's been a long time, I understand.  I actually reloaded an old origins save game so I could remember what happened.  Duncan explains what the mirror is, and vaguely why it is corrupted.  Duncan was very seasoned, and a lot of knowledge died with him.

[DoNotIngest]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...
Ah. I missed the sickly Hurlock, then. All I recall is a random mirror in some ruins infested with critters, Duncan walking in and saying "Yeeep, there's your problem. Tainted mirror." *Smash* "Let's go, kiddies."

I don't debate whether or not he used his Tingly Warden Senses to find out whether or not it was tainted; I just don't recall there being mention of any Eluvian book except for one, and certainly nothing as specific as "101 Ways to Improperly Cure Darkspawn Taint from an Eluvian".

It's been a long time, I understand.  I actually reloaded an old origins save game so I could remember what happened.  Duncan explains what the mirror is, and vaguely why it is corrupted.  Duncan was very seasoned, and a lot of knowledge died with him.

Still, that he'd have the time and luck to be not only a Warden, but to read up on the ridiculously scant Eluvians enough in his spare time in the Grey Warden Library ()  that he could tell for a fact when one was tainted beyond repair, is doubtful. I say he acted out of concern for the safety of the clan, as nobody really knows enough about Eluvians to know if one is beyond repair or not.

[Vhalkyrie]

Also, to be more 'accurate', it's more like the mirror vomited glenlocks rather than a hurlock vomiting on the mirror.

I suggest replaying the Dalish origin story up to being taken off to Ostagar.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 10:35 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Oof. Who lugs around anything weighing 400 lbs when you can just use magic?

Blood magic is forbidden, even among the Dalish. The deal the demon made was to teach Merrill blood magic in order to cleanse the taint from the shard. Whether you personally believe blood magic is ok or not, to the Dalish it is abhorrent. Unforgivable. So the price was, the demon got Merrill to do something she would not normally do, in order to get what she wanted - a "cleansed" shard.  That was the deal.

Yet blood magic was practiced by the elves of Arlathan. I think we have confirmation of that now, given that Merrill refers to it as one of the "ancient ways" and the character introduction established Merrill as aware of all known elven history.

So who cares if the Dalish don't practice it? The Dalish also don't live in cities, but the Elvhen used to. That's Merrill's entire point. They're forgetting who they are and after a few more generations, they'll be nothing.

As for the mirror still being tainted, did I miss the part where Merrill turned into a shriek?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[DoNotIngest]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Oof. Who lugs around anything weighing 400 lbs when you can just use magic?

Blood magic is forbidden, even among the Dalish. The deal the demon made was to teach Merrill blood magic in order to cleanse the taint from the shard. Whether you personally believe blood magic is ok or not, to the Dalish it is abhorrent. Unforgivable. So the price was, the demon got Merrill to do something she would not normally do, in order to get what she wanted - a "cleansed" shard.  That was the deal.

Yet blood magic was practiced by the elves of Arlathan. I think we have confirmation of that now, given that Merrill refers to it as one of the "ancient ways" and the character introduction established Merrill as aware of all known elven history.

So who cares if the Dalish don't practice it? The Dalish also don't live in cities, but the Elvhen used to. That's Merrill's entire point. They're forgetting who they are and after a few more generations, they'll be nothing.

As for the mirror still being tainted, did I miss the part where Merrill turned into a shriek?

I think I missed that part too...

"Also, to be more 'accurate', it's more like the mirror vomited glenlocks rather than a hurlock vomiting on the mirror.

I suggest replaying the Dalish origin story up to being taken off to Ostagar."

Genlocks*  I don't need to play it again to know there was nothing other than giant spiders, skeletons and an undead bear in that cave.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Also, to be more 'accurate', it's more like the mirror vomited glenlocks rather than a hurlock vomiting on the mirror.

I suggest replaying the Dalish origin story up to being taken off to Ostagar.

I did.  For the first time, this weekend.  Because I wanted to see what Merrill was like there.  I'll have to play it again, because I must have missed the part where it is established the mirror caused all those darkspawn to appear.