260 réponses à ce sujet

[Vhalkyrie]

The first time you go in, there are spiders.  The second time you go in, there are darkspawn.

Duncan explains the mirror is tainted with the same taint that makes the darkspawn. It is corrupted, and will corrupt everything around it. Your character is also infected with the taint because Tamlen unleashed it. That part is clearly explained.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:06 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

The first time you go in, there are spiders.  The second time you go in, there are darkspawn.

Duncan explains the mirror is tainted with the same taint that makes the darkspawn. It is corrupted, and will corrupt everything around it. Your character is also infected with the taint because Tamlen unleashed it. That part is clearly explained.

That does not establish any sort of causal relationship, however.  The spreading taint of the oncoming blight could just have easily corrupted the mirror. 

We do know that the mirror is not tainted / corrupted when we see it in DA:2.

[Vhalkyrie]

You did not play the same origin story I did, then.  Duncan explains where the taint came from.  The mirror is the source.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:24 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Doesn't matter. It wasn't tainted after Merrill purified it. She's not a darkspawn.

[Maria Caliban]

I assumed that this particular Eluvian led to somewhere in the Deep Roads while Morrigan's led to Elsewhere. The taint came into the mirror when elf-dude activated it.

[Vhalkyrie]

I assumed that this particular Eluvian led to somewhere in the Deep
Roads while Morrigan's led to Elsewhere. The taint came into the mirror
when elf-dude activated it.

Reposting what I wrote in another thread:

The soon-to-be Warden and Tamlen find a strange ruin while the camp was in Fereldan. Inside they find the Eluvian, which eminates pure evil. It mesmerizes Tamlen, he touches it and disappears. The not-yet-Warden returns to the mirror with Merill and Fenarel to try and find Tamlen. They find Duncan. He explains that the mirror is Tevinter in origin used for communication. Over time, they break, and become filled with the same taint as the darkspawn. It radiates the taint around it.  Duncan destroys it. Even then Merrill was obsessed with it. She wanted to go back and learn more about it. Duncan tells her to leave it alone. Merrill most likely comes back at a later point to retrieve it. I'm not sure if it was a plot hole or not, but originally the Keeper did want Merrill to retrieve a piece of the eluvian because the Keeper wanted to study it. Duncan told Merethari that was unwise.

After your character leaves with Duncan, the clan disappears to escape the blight. According to the early stages of DA2, the clan has only recently settled on Sundermount, presumably told by Flemeth to go there. Merethari tells Hawke she had a debt to repay to Flemeth, so it is likely Flemeth saved the clan just as she saved Hawke, and setup the meeting on Sundermount.

Morrigan in Witch Hunt seeks out a *working* Eluvian.  One not tainted.  Of which there aren't many left.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:37 .

[jlb524]

So....Duncan is an Eluvian expert but mistakenly thinks they are Tevinter in origin?

[Vhalkyrie]

Well, you're sort of right. Duncan only mentions the Tevinter use.

This part is explained later, not in the Dalish origin.  Witch Hunt maybe?  The Tevinters attempted to learn the secrets, but all they could manage to do was use it for communication. The Tevinters are likely the ones the broke the mirrors, unleashing the taint, from improper use.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Maria Caliban]

Vhalkyrie, while I appreciate the write-up, I'm not sure if you're attempting to communicate something other than the information.

[Vhalkyrie]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Vhalkyrie, while I appreciate the write-up, I'm not sure if you're attempting to communicate something other than the information.

It was a repost from another thread.  Sorry.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 29 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

Okay. Thank you.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

You did not play the same origin story I did, then.  Duncan explains where the taint came from.  The mirror is the source.

Duncan also claims that the mirror is Tvinter in origin, not Elvhen. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I assumed that this particular Eluvian led to somewhere in the Deep Roads while Morrigan's led to Elsewhere. The taint came into the mirror when elf-dude activated it.

Listening to the doomed elf speak of what he was seeing, it almost sounded like he could see the Black City...

It's possible that the taint came from where the Eluvian was "targetted".   *shrug*

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 29 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Torax]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

You did not play the same origin story I did, then.  Duncan explains where the taint came from.  The mirror is the source.

Duncan also claims that the mirror is Tvinter in origin, not Elvhen. 

Basically it's like this. Duncan stated what they wanted him to in Origins. It was ret coned by witch hunt to justify why Morrigan had to take a book from the Dalish and not say Tevinter or the Circle. Lets move on.

Modifié par Torax, 30 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Vhalkyrie]

I only brought up the Origin story and Duncan's explanation to fill in some backstory. Perhaps it was my poor explanation that led it to go down this path. Do, or don't do, with it what you will.

[Torax]

Basically it appears no matter what that the Eluvians were more than just for communication. It's assumed a portal since after all in Witch Hunt, Morrigan uses it. Where exactly did her's go? What dark place was the Brecilian Forest one a gate to? Who knows. Are all Eluvians able to link or are they exact connections? Maybe the writers will tell us when they make it up.

Edited to add. We only assume that the Forest one links to the Black City cause it's something that is brought up more than once in that type of description. But when assumptions aren't really worth stress or debates really. Especially when it's hardly crucial to some argument that attempts to put blame on either guilty party or the plot armor protected player character.

Modifié par Torax, 30 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Augustei]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Everyone is rather harsh on Merrill and her blood magic and possibly bring a demon through the eluvian or whatnots.
Anders gives her a hard time.
Fenris gives her a hard time.
Gamers give her a hard time.

But here are the facts.
The warden can go chasing an eluvian like it's not going to eat her and the rest of the world.  She can also let Morrigan through it or even follow her.  Oh man, how bad can the eluvian be?

Hawke manages to summon demons over and over by destroying some books and then she summons Xebenkeck after reading the last book in Forbidden Knowledge.  Oh and a whole bunch of seemingly endless demons, arcane horrors, reverents.   

What the heck is ONE demon through a mirror going to make a difference here and there?  I lost count of how many demons Hawke et al killed by the end of it all.

And Hawke can also allow Topor to take over Feynriel, which o.O sounds like a supremely bad idea by the way people talk of dreamers.

I mean, by comparison, Merrill looks like an angel next to Hawke.

~I summoned a demon, of course I did, why wouldn't I?~ says sarcastic Hawke.  Indeed Hawke, indeed!
And yet nobody tells Hawke that they are a danger to the world.  
If Thedas doesn't get pulverized after all of Hawke's shenanigans, I'll be surprised!

Because most of the demons Hawke brings forth are demons of sloth or rage.. Which can be easily dispatched by Templars.. Whereas a demon of Pride is the most powerful demon class and it can destroy entire cities.. So Hawkes demon deals are not as dangerous as merrills..

[Emperor Iaius I]

He also brings out plenty of revenants and arcane horrors, which ARE Pride Demons.

[Killjoy Cutter]

XxDeonxX wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Everyone is rather harsh on Merrill and her blood magic and possibly bring a demon through the eluvian or whatnots.
Anders gives her a hard time.
Fenris gives her a hard time.
Gamers give her a hard time.

But here are the facts.
The warden can go chasing an eluvian like it's not going to eat her and the rest of the world.  She can also let Morrigan through it or even follow her.  Oh man, how bad can the eluvian be?

Hawke manages to summon demons over and over by destroying some books and then she summons Xebenkeck after reading the last book in Forbidden Knowledge.  Oh and a whole bunch of seemingly endless demons, arcane horrors, reverents.   

What the heck is ONE demon through a mirror going to make a difference here and there?  I lost count of how many demons Hawke et al killed by the end of it all.

And Hawke can also allow Topor to take over Feynriel, which o.O sounds like a supremely bad idea by the way people talk of dreamers.

I mean, by comparison, Merrill looks like an angel next to Hawke.

~I summoned a demon, of course I did, why wouldn't I?~ says sarcastic Hawke.  Indeed Hawke, indeed!
And yet nobody tells Hawke that they are a danger to the world.  
If Thedas doesn't get pulverized after all of Hawke's shenanigans, I'll be surprised!

Because most of the demons Hawke brings forth are demons of sloth or rage.. Which can be easily dispatched by Templars.. Whereas a demon of Pride is the most powerful demon class and it can destroy entire cities.. So Hawkes demon deals are not as dangerous as merrills..

Cities?  Heh, when have we ever seen a pride demon not end up quickly punked out by the Warden, Hawke, etc?

[tmp7704]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Cities?  Heh, when have we ever seen a pride demon not end up quickly punked out by the Warden, Hawke, etc?

Plot Armour.

Unfortunately the game doesn't provide enemies which the PC actually cannot beat. Even if it means screwing its own lore which yes, does state that a greater pride demon could threaten entire world, and "regular" pride demons easily defeat large groups of templars and whatnot.

It gets especially silly when they make such supposedly powerful enemies weak to the point they start to staple couple of them together and have to throw bunch of lesser enemies in the mix just to provide any sort of challenge

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 mars 2011 - 02:43 .

[Maria Caliban]

After fighting Hybris, the High Dragon, and Xebenkeck, Audacity wasn't much of a battle

If there's a danger in what Merrill is doing, it needs to be with the mirror, not a demon type I can easily kick the ass of. The problem is that 1) the danger is poorly defined, 2) everything we know about the danger isn't in the game, and 3) at no point does anyone suffer or die because of Merrill's actions.

What I take from Merrill's story is that fear is often far more dangerous and destructive than what we fear. Which is an excellent theme for a dark fantasy game, so I approve.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

After fighting Hybris, the High Dragon, and Xebenkeck, Audacity wasn't much of a battle

If there's a danger in what Merrill is doing, it needs to be with the mirror, not a demon type I can easily kick the ass of. The problem is that 1) the danger is poorly defined, 2) everything we know about the danger isn't in the game, and 3) at no point does anyone suffer or die because of Merrill's actions.

What I take from Merrill's story is that fear is often far more dangerous and destructive than what we fear. Which is an excellent theme for a dark fantasy game, so I approve.

Exactly. 

Despite all the talk and accusations and fan-anger about what Merrill was doing, everything that went wrong was because of someone else's fear.  Merrill was never possessed, never sacrificed anyone, never unleashed any demons on the world, never did any harm to any innocent with her blood magic. 

Every single death surrounding Merrill's "evil blood magic" was caused by someone else's irrationality, fear, and hate.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 30 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

tmp7704 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Cities?  Heh, when have we ever seen a pride demon not end up quickly punked out by the Warden, Hawke, etc?

Plot Armour.

Unfortunately the game doesn't provide enemies which the PC actually cannot beat. Even if it means screwing its own lore which yes, does state that a greater pride demon could threaten entire world, and "regular" pride demons easily defeat large groups of templars and whatnot.

It gets especially silly when they make such supposedly powerful enemies weak to the point they start to staple couple of them together and have to throw bunch of lesser enemies in the mix just to provide any sort of challenge

I'm going to draw my conclusions from the evidence at hand, in the game.  Not from creator claims, not from contrivances such as "plot armor", not from the lore, not from what characters in the game claim to be true.  If the game always shows pride demons being slapped around, then pride demons are no big deal.

[tmp7704]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If the game always shows pride demons being slapped around, then pride demons are no big deal.

The game shows everything slapped around. Going by this logic nothing is big deal, including the Archdemons.

[Killjoy Cutter]

tmp7704 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If the game always shows pride demons being slapped around, then pride demons are no big deal.

The game shows everything slapped around. Going by this logic nothing is big deal, including the Archdemons.

At least the Archdemon takes a while to die, and takes either an eldtrich ritual or the death of a Gray Warden to actually be destroyed...