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[LobselVith8]

The unofficial Dragon Age Wiki reproduced the Ages article that has a timeline of events and wars in Thedas, Dan-Mac RI.

[tmp7704]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

There are tons of recorded wars: Exalted Marches, rebellions(Ferelden), Slave revolts(Kirkwall and Andraste), wars between Elves and humans(Fall of Arlathan and the Dales), and blights. Though to be honest I would love to see a time line of Thedas so we know when all these things happened.

That's less than a dozen in over 900 years   also, i wasn't including the Blights since these are sort of external factor. I meant more like regular wars over borders, lands and political influence.

[Torax]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Are there any entrys that say that a entire city or nation actually fell to a pride demon in the past?

Nothing on the record; but it's worth to keep on mind there's very little "on the record" in general. For example there's very few recorded wars in Thedas history known to us. I'm not sure if we can conclude from this that world is an utopia with few armed conflicts.

There are tons of recorded wars: Exalted Marches, rebellions(Ferelden), Slave revolts(Kirkwall and Andraste), wars between Elves and humans(Fall of Arlathan and the Dales), and blights. Though to be honest I would love to see a time line of Thedas so we know when all these things happened.

We're fooling ourselves. I just picture the writers making things up as they go. If they happen to Ret Con stuff from Origins and so on? I doubt they lose sleep at night. Case in point Eluvian is Elven in origin and not Tevinter. heh.

[Taura-Tierno]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Are there any entrys that say that a entire city or nation actually fell to a pride demon in the past?

Just like with blights - the archdemon was killed many times in early blights - the problem was it kept returning until they discovered the secret for destryoing its soul.

Meredith did specifically mention that her sister (a weak mage who never would have passed the harrowing) got possessed by a demon and killed 70 innocents before being taken down. The strength of abominations as given in the gameplay certainly doesn't match with what we're told about how strong abominations are.

There might be differences in strength among the demons, though? Some abominations might be generally weak, whereas a few might be freakishly powerful. It would be reasonable that the worst are the ones we here of. The templars would have no interest in talking about a mage turning into an abomination, only to be smacked to death by his wife wielding a frying pan. Talking about the abominations that do turn out to be especially powerful is much better for the templars, since it makes people more afraid of mages. 

[tmp7704]

Torax wrote...

We're fooling ourselves. I just picture the writers making things up as they go.

Pretty much and partly what i was getting at; i'd expect the timeline to be left largely blank so things can be inserted into it when and where it's convenient for the intended plot. Hence the lack of recorded wars, recorded demon rampages etc.

[Vhalkyrie]

Torax wrote...
We're fooling ourselves. I just picture the writers making things up as they go. If they happen to Ret Con stuff from Origins and so on? I doubt they lose sleep at night. Case in point Eluvian is Elven in origin and not Tevinter. heh.

Pretty much my thought.  I doubt Anders and Justice were introduced in Awakenings for the purpose of one day becoming a Chantry bomber.  I'm sure it's an idea that they extrapolated on at a later point in development.

[hoorayforicecream]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

There might be differences in strength among the demons, though? Some abominations might be generally weak, whereas a few might be freakishly powerful. It would be reasonable that the worst are the ones we here of. The templars would have no interest in talking about a mage turning into an abomination, only to be smacked to death by his wife wielding a frying pan. Talking about the abominations that do turn out to be especially powerful is much better for the templars, since it makes people more afraid of mages. 

I don't really know either. The general populace seems to be frightened to death of abominations though... if there were enough 'frying panned by wife' stories, you'd think that they'd be less worried.

[Vhalkyrie]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I don't really know either. The general populace seems to be frightened to death of abominations though... if there were enough 'frying panned by wife' stories, you'd think that they'd be less worried.

The Bone Pit miner you tell to go back to work after clearing out the dragons says, "If I go back home without a job, the missus will be more angry than a dragon." Or something like that.  

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 30 mars 2011 - 06:54 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...
I don't really know either. The general populace seems to be frightened to death of abominations though... if there were enough 'frying panned by wife' stories, you'd think that they'd be less worried.

The Bone Pit miner you tell to go back to work after clearing out the dragons says, "If I go back home without a job, the missus will be more angry than a dragon." Or something like that.  

Isabela's also got a throwaway line about dragons that make me believe people are less scared of dragons than abominations. I think it was something like "Oh, how cute! They're like kittens... that want to eat you!" I think they are more scared of the huge dragons than they are of dragons in general. 

[Addai]

LadyBri wrote...
Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

LOL! 

Every time Merrill brings up Tamlen I get the urge to slap her.  She has no right to mourn him and then turn around and try to recreate what caused his torment and ultimately (because Mahariel was there to clean up the mess) his death.

The many arguments of "well Marethari/ Hawke/ the Warden were just as bad" are meaningless.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Addai67 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...
Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

LOL! 

Every time Merrill brings up Tamlen I get the urge to slap her.  She has no right to mourn him and then turn around and try to recreate what caused his torment and ultimately (because Mahariel was there to clean up the mess) his death.

We really don't know what happened to Tamlen, and we only have the word of Duncan that the Eluvian was ultimately to blame -- and he might not even know the real origin of the Eluvians.  If they're pre-Tvinter in origin, it could just as easily be that the taint causes them to break, as opposed to the devices breaking and then "radiating" taint.  If the Tvinter magisters really did turn the Golden City into the Black City, and thereby cause the darkspawn to come into being, and the mirrors pre-date that event (being of ancient Elvhen origin), then it's not the mirrors that are dangerous in and of themselves...

[Vhalkyrie]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

We really don't know what happened to Tamlen, and we only have the word of Duncan that the Eluvian was ultimately to blame -- and he might not even know the real origin of the Eluvians.  If they're pre-Tvinter in origin, it could just as easily be that the taint causes them to break, as opposed to the devices breaking and then "radiating" taint.  If the Tvinter magisters really did turn the Golden City into the Black City, and thereby cause the darkspawn to come into being, and the mirrors pre-date that event (being of ancient Elvhen origin), then it's not the mirrors that are dangerous in and of themselves...

Tamlen reappears as a ghoul along with the shrieks that attacks the party camp after you complete 3 of the 4 main quests.  I think only if you did the Dalish story.  I don't recall seeing him with my Cousland game.

[Edit] In case you don't want to play all the way through as Dalish to see it, fortunately there is YouTube.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 30 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[Torax]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...
Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

LOL! 

Every time Merrill brings up Tamlen I get the urge to slap her.  She has no right to mourn him and then turn around and try to recreate what caused his torment and ultimately (because Mahariel was there to clean up the mess) his death.

We really don't know what happened to Tamlen, and we only have the word of Duncan that the Eluvian was ultimately to blame -- and he might not even know the real origin of the Eluvians.  If they're pre-Tvinter in origin, it could just as easily be that the taint causes them to break, as opposed to the devices breaking and then "radiating" taint.  If the Tvinter magisters really did turn the Golden City into the Black City, and thereby cause the darkspawn to come into being, and the mirrors pre-date that event (being of ancient Elvhen origin), then it's not the mirrors that are dangerous in and of themselves...

If you had a Dalish Warden you know what ends up to Tamlen. You kill him later when he comes at you as a Ghoul.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The mirror "traps" Tamlen.

The Dalish warden is knocked out.

Tamlen is a ghoul later.

What actually caused Tamlen to become a ghoul is not established by the facts in evidence. Many people become ghouls without a tainted Eluvian around to do it.

[Torax]

The taint makes them a ghoul. The rest of that Horde you see comes from brood mothers. Either a Dwarven Broodmother or a Human Broodmother. Just the first human one you see is in Awakening. Ghouls are basically living zombie slaves until they die.

Edited to add

Dwarf Broodmothers = Genlocks
Human Broodmothers = Hurlocks
Elven Broodmothers = Shrieks
Qunari Broodmothers = Ogres

The Alphas are variations of Genlock and Hurlocks. The talkers in Dragon Age 2 are variations of Hurlocks.

Modifié par Torax, 30 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[Addai]

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Tamlen reappears as a ghoul along with the shrieks that attacks the party camp after you complete 3 of the 4 main quests.  I think only if you did the Dalish story.  I don't recall seeing him with my Cousland game.

[Edit] In case you don't want to play all the way through as Dalish to see it, fortunately there is YouTube.

www.youtube.com/watch

Yes that's my video.    Man, that scene always killed me.

As to not knowing what caused Tamlen and Mahariel to become sick, that's just silly.  We don't know the sky is blue either.  The fact that Merrill doesn't know the exact nature of what happened to Tamlen and Mahariel is more reason for her to leave the eluvian alone, not less.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Torax wrote...

The taint makes them a ghoul. The rest of that Horde you see comes from brood mothers. Either a Dwarven Broodmother or a Human Broodmother. Just the first human one you see is in Awakening. Ghouls are basically living zombie slaves until they die.

Edited to add

Dwarf Broodmothers = Genlocks
Human Broodmothers = Hurlocks
Elven Broodmothers = Shrieks
Qunari Broodmothers = Ogres

The Alphas are variations of Genlock and Hurlocks. The talkers in Dragon Age 2 are variations of Hurlocks.

If the taint doesn't kill you, it turns you into a ghoul.  Yes, that's all common knowledge, all over the game and the codex and a lot of wika entries. 

That's not what I meant. 

There's nothing in what we see in the Dalish Warden's origin that shows that the Eluvian is the source of the taint in that ruin, or that it tainted Tamlen. 

It's just as plausible that the mirror knocked both Tamlen and the future Warden out, and both were tainted by the general corruption present in the area, just as the mirror itself could have been tainted by it, not the cause of it.  For whatever reason, Tamlen wakes first, walks off, and isn't saved by Duncan and Merethari.  In fact, after fighting all those tainted creatures, they could have been tainted before ever finding the mirror itself. 

The point of all this "nitpicking" about the mirror?  Blaming the mirror for the taint in that ruin, or for tainting Tamlen,assumes facts not in evidence. 

And more importantly, that those assuming that the mirror or any like it or any shard of it will always been Bad Evil Wrong, and Darkspawn Icky, are not justified in treating that assumption as a fact, or in then basing their opinion of Merrill and her goals on that assumption as if it were fact.

[Camenae]

Addai67 wrote...

The many arguments of "well Marethari/ Hawke/ the Warden were just as bad" are meaningless.

I agree with this.  "Hawke/Marethari/the Warden are wrong too" does not --> "Merrill is right." 

[Camenae]

.

Modifié par Camenae, 30 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[Dan-mac RI]

Vhalkyrie wrote...


Tamlen reappears as a ghoul along with the shrieks that attacks the party camp after you complete 3 of the 4 main quests.  I think only if you did the Dalish story.  I don't recall seeing him with my Cousland game.

[Edit] In case you don't want to play all the way through as Dalish to see it, fortunately there is YouTube.

www.youtube.com/watch

What he says sounds like Bartrand. The Song and all that. Can lyrium absorb darkspawn taint? Or is the idol a different kind of taint that is similar but causes allegiance to a different master? I know this is off topic, but it's interesting to think about.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Camenae wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The many arguments of "well Marethari/ Hawke/ the Warden were just as bad" are meaningless.

I agree with this.  "Hawke/Marethari/the Warden are wrong too" does not --> "Merrill is right." 

You're both conflating different arguments, and getting some of them backwards.

1)  In reference to Merethari, we're saying that the information we get from her may be wrong, either because she is mistaken, or lying.  In that case, basing any judgement either way of Merrill on that information would be an error.

2)  In reference to the Warden and Hawke, there are two different arguments:
a)  there are instances in which, if Merrill is wrong, then so are some Wardens and some Hawkes, and yet the same level of scorn is not directed at either
  there are instances in which the Warden and Hawke face the "terrible dangers" that Merrill supposedly faces by having contact with a demon, and yet they might as well be laughing in the fact of demons, for all the real trouble that the demons give them (the contrived, unique ability of one sloth demon to force Warden and crew to sleep and enter the fade not withstanding).

[Killjoy Cutter]

Dan-mac RI wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...


Tamlen reappears as a ghoul along with the shrieks that attacks the party camp after you complete 3 of the 4 main quests.  I think only if you did the Dalish story.  I don't recall seeing him with my Cousland game.

[Edit] In case you don't want to play all the way through as Dalish to see it, fortunately there is YouTube.

www.youtube.com/watch

What he says sounds like Bartrand. The Song and all that. Can lyrium absorb darkspawn taint? Or is the idol a different kind of taint that is similar but causes allegiance to a different master? I know this is off topic, but it's interesting to think about.

The darkspawn may have tainted that idol. 

Or the true origin of the darkspawn may link back to the lost dwarven civilization hinted at in the primeval taigh.

[jlb524]

I thought I preferred the 'rival' path with Merrill, but replaying the game again, it just makes no sense to me, especially considering Marethari's odd actions.

RE: the mirror. It always seemed to me that it became corrupted b/c of the Blight and being in close proximity to Darkspawn. I doubt Duncan is an expert on ancient elven mirrors, but as a Grey Warden he could at least sense that the taint was coming from the mirror. How it got there? He could only guess. I also doubt the ancient elves had to worry about Darkspawn corruption, so this is something that they wouldn't have protected their magic mirrors from.

Re: Merrill. Comparing her to Branka is unfair. Branka used and sacrificed her people to achieve her goals while Merrill did not and would not. The Anvil itself is obviously more "evil" than the mirror, as it requires a soul to create a golem (and the death of the person who is providing the soul, of course).

[Vhalkyrie]

The first time you go to the eluvian, there are no darkspawn (except one corrupted bear in a closed room with the mirror.) When you go back later with Fenarel and Merrill, there's the first introduction to darkspawn genlocks and emissaries. I'm inclined to believe Duncan's version of events, that the mirror radiates the taint, unleashed when Tamlen touched it, and darkspawn are drawn to it.  I don't think Duncan purported himself to be an eluvian expert, but he said the Grey Wardens have seen others like it.  My character asked him questions about it, and he shared what information he knew.

We know from Awakenings the fifth blight was started by the Architect's botched experiment to convert the old god Urthemiel. The corrupted eluvian probably was activated by the taint from Urthemiel's activities.

We know that the mirror was not continuing to radiate the taint after being broken because the Warden returns to it in Witch Hunt (supposedly a year after the end of the blight). They took a piece of it in order to locate the eluvian Morrigan was going to use. Whenever Merrill retrieved it, It still held the corruption, which is what Merrill sought to 'cleanse' with blood magic as taught by Audacity.

[Edit] Corrected to say the darkspawn are drawn to it, not come out of it.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 30 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...
Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

LOL! 

Every time Merrill brings up Tamlen I get the urge to slap her.  She has no right to mourn him and then turn around and try to recreate what caused his torment and ultimately (because Mahariel was there to clean up the mess) his death.

As his friend, I'd think she has every might to mourn him and want his death not to be a meaningless accident. If Merrill had trouble connecting with people, and Tamlen or Mahariel was one of her few friends, I can see how their death would have a significant impact on her. She's not recreating the corrupted Eluvian, she cleansed it of the taint and is trying to restore it to what it once was. The restoration of elven history is precisely what the Dalish are all about, and what their goal is when they gain a new homeland and teach the city elves what they've forgotten. She's likely trying to give Tamlen's death meaning by trying to bring forth a two thousand year old piece of elven technology that might hold the answers to questions the elves have had since the inception of the Dales and the fall of their second homeland.