260 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylriel]

My answer to the OP:

Warden = total badass
Hawke = major badass

Merrill = not badass, not even close

Merrill can't walk up to a demon, punch it on the nose and make it run whimpering home to mama. In my little make believe version of Thedas, both the warden and Hawke can. So it's a no, no for Merrill playing with demons.

[Thiefy]

in most scenarios, hawke is shown to resists demon's temptations, while merril gives into a deal at the first demon she meets

[Vhalkyrie]

Also accepts a deal with a second demon, if you take her to the fade.

So far:

Demons: 2
Merrill: 0

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 31 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Sylriel wrote...

My answer to the OP:

Warden = total badass
Hawke = major badass

Merrill = not badass, not even close

Merrill can't walk up to a demon, punch it on the nose and make it run whimpering home to mama. In my little make believe version of Thedas, both the warden and Hawke can. So it's a no, no for Merrill playing with demons.

Merrill seems pretty powerful as a blood mage, in my opinion, but now you're making me wonder how DA3 might handle the Hero of Ferelden - I wonder if they'll try to pull a Nevarine or incorporate him into the actual storyline of the third installment.

I think it's inevitable that mages will need to deal with "spirits" from the Fade. Mages can gain their assistance in spells. The line from the blood mage specialization makes it clear that some mages favor blood magic because while "the effects can be vile" it's acknowledged that "this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. " It's interesting to note that even spirit healers are said to get the assistance of spirits for more powerful healing spells because they "are the mages most likely to be accepted—or at least tolerated—by common people, and yet templars fear them as much or more than the damage-focused specializations. No other mages so directly draw their power from the beneficial spirits of the Fade. It’s a risk, but the rewards are undeniable."

[LobselVith8]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

in most scenarios, hawke is shown to resists demon's temptations, while merril gives into a deal at the first demon she meets

This isn't accurate. Merrill falls prey to one Pride Demon, and besides Hawke, the only other person who doesn't fall victim is Anders, who is already an abomination since he merged with Justice. Every other person will betray Hawke in Feynriel's Dream realm.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Also accepts a deal with a second demon, if you take her to the fade.

So far:

Demons: 2
Merrill: 0

As does everyone else, with the sole exception of Anders. Furthermore, how is it "Demons: 2" when Merrill isn't an abomination and we know next to nothing about her initial dealing with Audacity?

[Torax]

I think the Merrill thing with demons is that she sided with them twice. First in whatever deal she made to learn the blood magic and the 2nd when she turned on Hawke in the fade.

[Sylriel]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill
seems pretty powerful as a blood mage, in my opinion.

This is true and I agree.  She is very powerful as a blood mage.  I spec'd her out that way myself.  Her setup will always be different for each player however.  So from an in game role play point of view, this can only be attributed to Hawke's influence on her.

My point is she will never be as "strong" or as "powerful" (however you wish to define those) as the warden or as Hawke as I played those characters.  She will never defeat the Archdemon single handedly.  She will never earn the title of Champion of Kirkwall and save Kirkwall from the scary red glowy eyed Meridith.

In short, Merrill = not badass like the warden and Hawke.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Torax wrote...

I think the Merrill thing with demons is that she sided with them twice. First in whatever deal she made to learn the blood magic and the 2nd when she turned on Hawke in the fade.

Sided with them? No, I'm pretty sure she's siding with her people: which is what she's maintained from the start.

She accepts a demon's help to purify the eluvian. She accepts a demon's help to--well, I forget exactly--but she points out that Hawke doesn't outweigh her people.

Demons can provide incredible boons. She's willing to use them. What's the problem? That's not the same as being willingly possessed.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 31 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[steve lin]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Branka sacrificed her own House against the darkspawn. She used them as pawns. She wanted to throw their souls into the golems.

Are you really comparing that to the person who wanted nobody, NOBODY else to share her risks and willingly exiled herself from her clan?

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It's only evil if you use it for evil. Just as with a Harrowing, the relationship with blood magic and with demons depends on the mage's will. Has Merrill ever, ever shown anything but self-sacrifice for the good of others? She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite.

She's spent seven years in intense study. Even before then, she had a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." She's not just going on a lark.

yes. I disappoint her actions in game very much.

in act 1, I think she is very cute, though she describes a crime with wrong direction.

actually, I encounter a tough boss "acent rock wraith" in hard mode, see how to solve the problems in combat...and by the way, have a look Merrill's "a new path", a option shows her "friendly" +15, but the result is kill her whole clan !???

so, your comment "Merrill is never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite. " , which is to the point !

and how can I have a romance with her kind !?

I will take Isabela instead.

[steve lin]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Branka sacrificed her own House against the darkspawn. She used them as pawns. She wanted to throw their souls into the golems.

Are you really comparing that to the person who wanted nobody, NOBODY else to share her risks and willingly exiled herself from her clan?

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It's only evil if you use it for evil. Just as with a Harrowing, the relationship with blood magic and with demons depends on the mage's will. Has Merrill ever, ever shown anything but self-sacrifice for the good of others? She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite.

She's spent seven years in intense study. Even before then, she had a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." She's not just going on a lark.

it's the point to Merrill her kind "She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite."

how can my male Hawke romance with Merrill !???

I will take Isabela.

[Killjoy Cutter]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

in most scenarios, hawke is shown to resists demon's temptations, while merril gives into a deal at the first demon she meets

This isn't accurate. Merrill falls prey to one Pride Demon, and besides Hawke, the only other person who doesn't fall victim is Anders, who is already an abomination since he merged with Justice. Every other person will betray Hawke in Feynriel's Dream realm.

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Also accepts a deal with a second demon, if you take her to the fade.

So far:

Demons: 2
Merrill: 0

As does everyone else, with the sole exception of Anders. Furthermore, how is it "Demons: 2" when Merrill isn't an abomination and we know next to nothing about her initial dealing with Audacity?

Furthermore, it seems to be one of those "to hell with what has been established about the characters, here's what I want to write" moments that are too common in pop fiction, and also a giant railroad. 

The sloth demon is going to put you to sleep in the circle tower, no matter what. 

The Architect is going to hit you with the trap when you enter the mines, even if you see the sigil on the floor and deliberately move around it.

Your companions are going to betray you in Feynriel's dreamscape, no matter what.

[Killjoy Cutter]

steve lin wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Branka sacrificed her own House against the darkspawn. She used them as pawns. She wanted to throw their souls into the golems.

Are you really comparing that to the person who wanted nobody, NOBODY else to share her risks and willingly exiled herself from her clan?

Blood magic is not inherently evil. It's only evil if you use it for evil. Just as with a Harrowing, the relationship with blood magic and with demons depends on the mage's will. Has Merrill ever, ever shown anything but self-sacrifice for the good of others? She's never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite.

She's spent seven years in intense study. Even before then, she had a "unique knowledge of Keeper lore." She's not just going on a lark.

yes. I disappoint her actions in game very much.

in act 1, I think she is very cute, though she describes a crime with wrong direction.

actually, I encounter a tough boss "acent rock wraith" in hard mode, see how to solve the problems in combat...and by the way, have a look Merrill's "a new path", a option shows her "friendly" +15, but the result is kill her whole clan !???

so, your comment "Merrill is never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite. " , which is to the point !

and how can I have a romance with her kind !?

I will take Isabela instead.

Don't catch something. 


As for "killing her whole clan", Merrill doesn't cause that.  Her clan's ignorance, superstistion, and fear, stoked by a Keeper who does the very thing she accuses Merrill of being a fool for risking, kills them, IF you take certain conversation choices.

[Makeshift Riot]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

We know the facts? So we know what would have happened had Marethari not interfered, as a fact?

No. We only know what a pride-demon-infested abomination told us.

This. Merrill isn't a fool. She did know what she was doing and she knows that there is no such thing as a good spirit, unlike Anders.

For all we know the demon could have been in the Keeper since we took Merrill from the camp.

Moreover, plot and all. The mirror isn't for the demon. It never was, it is was a gateway for Morrigan and/or Godchild.

Edit: that is who Sandal is talking about and why Flemeth has been stalking Sandal.

Modifié par Makeshift Riot, 31 mars 2011 - 01:45 .

[Vhalkyrie]

LobselVith8 wrote...
As does everyone else, with the sole exception of Anders. Furthermore, how is it "Demons: 2" when Merrill isn't an abomination and we know next to nothing about her initial dealing with Audacity?

Everyone else is doing it, so Merrill can't be held accountable.  I cannot agree.  She falls prey to 2 pride demons, with the exact same promise.  The demon says to Hawke, "Do you think your friend won't accept a deal from a demon?  She did before."  At which point Merrill says to Hawke that what the demon offers is more important than Hawke.  She was willing to kill Hawke in order to get what the demon promised.  Before anyone goes back to the crowd mentality that everyone else turns on Hawke too, no one else was having conversations with demons saying they knew what they were doing.

In contast, if you took Morrigan with you to the fade, she is the only one (other than the Warden and Hawke) who recognizes the demon's trick, and won't play.  Anders is shielded because of Justice.

I took Merrill in the fade precisely to see what she would do with demon temptation.  I cannot agree that Merrill knows what she is doing.  She's dangerous because she thinks she's in control and she's not.  She thinks she has all her bases covered, and she doesn't.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 31 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

LadyBri wrote...
Merrill is like the Care Bear version of Branka, but both are driven by an ambition to save their people while potentially destroying them.

LOL! 

Every time Merrill brings up Tamlen I get the urge to slap her.  She has no right to mourn him and then turn around and try to recreate what caused his torment and ultimately (because Mahariel was there to clean up the mess) his death.

As his friend, I'd think she has every might to mourn him and want his death not to be a meaningless accident. If Merrill had trouble connecting with people, and Tamlen or Mahariel was one of her few friends, I can see how their death would have a significant impact on her. She's not recreating the corrupted Eluvian, she cleansed it of the taint and is trying to restore it to what it once was. The restoration of elven history is precisely what the Dalish are all about, and what their goal is when they gain a new homeland and teach the city elves what they've forgotten. She's likely trying to give Tamlen's death meaning by trying to bring forth a two thousand year old piece of elven technology that might hold the answers to questions the elves have had since the inception of the Dales and the fall of their second homeland.

Or not learn from the mistakes of Mahariel and Tamlen and end up potentially (as in my game) getting the whole clan killed.

[Giggles_Manically]

I was a bit... shocked that the entire clan gets killed from that ending.....

oops.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
As does everyone else, with the sole exception of Anders. Furthermore, how is it "Demons: 2" when Merrill isn't an abomination and we know next to nothing about her initial dealing with Audacity?

Everyone else is doing it, so Merrill can't be held accountable.  I cannot agree.  She falls prey to 2 pride demons, with the exact same promise.  The demon says to Hawke, "Do you think your friend won't accept a deal from a demon?  She did before."  At which point Merrill says to Hawke that what the demon offers is more important than Hawke.  She was willing to kill Hawke in order to get what the demon promised.  Before anyone goes back to the crowd mentality that everyone else turns on Hawke too, no one else was having conversations with demons saying they knew what they were doing.

In contast, if you took Morrigan with you to the fade, she is the only one (other than the Warden and Hawke) who recognizes the demon's trick, and won't play.  Anders is shielded because of Justice.

I took Merrill in the fade precisely to see what she would do with demon temptation.  I cannot agree that Merrill knows what she is doing.  She's dangerous because she thinks she's in control and she's not.  She thinks she has all her bases covered, and she doesn't.

A)  It's a poorly written encounter.
  You're going to accuse the demons of lying to Merrill but telling Hawke the truth? 

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Morrigan thing is silly. The sloth demon wanted to kill them. Merrill knows it's a demon and she doesn't care. There's a big difference.

[grimjac100]

I weigh in on the side of sloppy writing for the entire Fade adventure; possibly my biggest gripe about the entire game. It doesn't matter WHAT you do, or what friendship you've accrued. You're getting betrayed in a completely idiotic fashion.

That said...I don't have any moral or ethical opposition to the way Merrill is written (save for the above) and her actions. A poster on the first page had the audacity to point out that since Isabella, Anders, and Fenris don't agree, then Merrill was obviously wrong. (I believe the poster was hoorayforicecream but I'm not going back to check)

Lets face it: with the exception of Varric, Hawke chooses lousy friends. Not a single ONE of them except Varric sticks by her (my play-throughs were all female).

To be clear: it is never...EVER...revealed exactly what the eluvian does. It's rumored to be a gateway of sorts, a means of communication between ancient elven cities...but since Merrill apparently never fixes it, we never find out if it is Bad News on its own merit. The effects it causes in the people who are around it are the problem.

Merrill stated it plainly: It's a Keeper's job to remember things, even the bad ones.

So who is really the bad person here? I propose it's Maratheri. She let fear of the unknown or forgotten get in the way of doing her job: remembering things, even the bad stuff. She opposed Merrill's quest at every turn, doing everything she could to stop the eluvian from being repaired, for no clear reason. Even going so far as to take a demon inside her; sure, she says it's so Merrill doesn't pay the price, and the eluvian would have been a gateway out for the demon. This makes no sense because the demon was ALREADY out of its prison without the eluvian. And the demon was already caught lying Maratheri's butt off, so anything she/it says can't be trusted.

So, the eluvian itself isn't necessarily a Bad Thing. We're never given that information from an untainted source. What we DO know is it's an ancient elven artifact that had been tainted but COULD be cleansed.

Why Merrill assumes the eluvian is somehow going to be the source of rescue for her people is anyone's guess, but I'm going with she's young and not worldly and puts all her hope into the first thing that presents itself. I remember being young and believing in things strongly enough to do stupid stuff for the sake of abstract ideals.

And as for that poster on the first page mentioned above...saying because Izzy, Anders, Fenris, etc don't approve, it means Merrill is obviously wrong, I counter with "If selfish evil people don't agree with what you're doing, odds are you're doing something a selfish evil person wouldn't do."

Lets see, Izzy is a thief, murderer, pirate, ****, and backstabbing traitor. All putting her in a position of moral superiority to Merrill, yep.

Anders is a terrorist with a cause, completely uncaring of the number of lives he sacrifices to his particular Cause. He basically starts a world war because he doesn't want any sort of compromise. Plus, he's an abomination, having taken `Justice' into himself. And who is to say Justice isn't just a Pride Demon in disguise, pretending to be what Anders wants him to be? Now there's a moral authority for you! "My cause is just, Merrill! Yours is evil! Because it's not my cause, that's why!"

And Fenris Boo-Hoo-Emo-Tattooed-Guy who hates any sort of mages except when they're saving his butt. "I've followed you against demons and dragons as you do your best to make the world or at least the city better, but if you side with the mages, I'm gonna kill you. Though I'll brood about it for the rest of my days. Damn mages. Can I get a heal?" (Honestly, I hated Fenris from the start, when he insulted Bethany, calling her a viper. I wish there was an option to beat him down and sell him back to his master after he said that about my SISTER after we help his lame butt.)

If ANY of those three opposed Merrill, I'm on her side just because I KNOW what sort of people they are.

The best way to wind it up is to say: Merrill, of all the companions, wasn't in it for herself. She was doing it for her people, when nobody else dared. Yes, you can make the same argument for Anders, EXCEPT...if you choose to kill him at the end, he says something like, "The sooner you do it, the sooner MY name will be a rallying cry." He wasn't actually in it for the mages, he was doing it so he'd become legendary and live forever...in a sense.

Merrill never showed that her concern was so SHE could save her people, but only that her people be saved and if she was the only one willing to risk it...she would.

So...go, Merrill. Do what you need to. Hawke's got your back.

[steve lin]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

steve lin wrote...

yes. I disappoint her actions in game very much.

in act 1, I think she is very cute, though she describes a crime with wrong direction.

actually, I encounter a tough boss "acent rock wraith" in hard mode, see how to solve the problems in combat...and by the way, have a look Merrill's "a new path", a option shows her "friendly" +15, but the result is kill her whole clan !???

so, your comment "Merrill is never shown any indication that she would let anybody else die for her. Much the opposite. " , which is to the point !

and how can I have a romance with her kind !?

I will take Isabela instead.

Don't catch something. 


As for "killing her whole clan", Merrill doesn't cause that.  Her clan's ignorance, superstistion, and fear, stoked by a Keeper who does the very thing she accuses Merrill of being a fool for risking, kills them, IF you take certain conversation choices.

thank you, I think I should run the storyline once, and then I am able to know my real feeling.

actually, the first time I see Merrill I know she is a beauty, if the tattoo can remove from her face, that will be much better.

[steve lin]

Sylriel wrote...

My answer to the OP:

Warden = total badass
Hawke = major badass

Merrill = not badass, not even close

Merrill can't walk up to a demon, punch it on the nose and make it run whimpering home to mama. In my little make believe version of Thedas, both the warden and Hawke can. So it's a no, no for Merrill playing with demons.

a insight writing.
because the warden and Hawke are special.

I would like to see the demons surprise Hawke or the warden can not be tempted.
or even hold the weakness of a demon.

I always see demons possess mages.
how about a special mage can control a great demon.

[Addai]

grimjac100 wrote...

I weigh in on the side of sloppy writing for the entire Fade adventure; possibly my biggest gripe about the entire game. It doesn't matter WHAT you do, or what friendship you've accrued. You're getting betrayed in a completely idiotic fashion.

It's not "sloppy writing" just because you don't like how it turns out.  The game writers set the parameters of the world and the characters and I don't see anything inconsistent here, especially since this was new territory, i.e. a dreamer's dream.  I don't think it establishes anything vis a vis Merrill, however.  Fenris is as skeptical of demons as they come and he'll turn on you in the Fade.

That said...I don't have any moral or ethical opposition to the way Merrill is written (save for the above) and her actions. A poster on the first page had the audacity to point out that since Isabella, Anders, and Fenris don't agree, then Merrill was obviously wrong. (I believe the poster was hoorayforicecream but I'm not going back to check)

Lets face it: with the exception of Varric, Hawke chooses lousy friends. Not a single ONE of them except Varric sticks by her (my play-throughs were all female).

Er... what?  You obviously had some problems with the friendship/ rivalry scale.  Isabela skedaddled in my game but otherwise everyone else stayed.  Unless you count Anders blowing up the Chantry as "not staying."

To be clear: it is never...EVER...revealed exactly what the eluvian does. It's rumored to be a gateway of sorts, a means of communication between ancient elven cities...but since Merrill apparently never fixes it, we never find out if it is Bad News on its own merit. The effects it causes in the people who are around it are the problem.

We know from Origins that this eluvian has killed people.  That's really all we know about it.  So "not knowing" means you be more cautious, not less.

Merrill stated it plainly: It's a Keeper's job to remember things, even the bad ones.

It's her duty first to survive and to ensure her clan's survival.  She's not doing anyone any favors by going against the keeper and the entire clan to pursue this frivolous and risky course.  If she wanted to know more about the eluvians, she could research them without resorting to blood magic, demons, and a shard from a broken mirror that has already killed people.

This makes no sense because the demon was ALREADY out of its prison without the eluvian. And the demon was already caught lying Maratheri's butt off, so anything she/it says can't be trusted.

*scratches head*  The demon wasn't in the eluvian.  Marethari sought an end run around Merrill's persistence at coming back and back to consult the demon, which she (Marethari) knew wasn't going to end well.  Marethari takes her share of blame, but it doesn't absolve Merrill.

Why Merrill assumes the eluvian is somehow going to be the source of rescue for her people is anyone's guess, but I'm going with she's young and not worldly and puts all her hope into the first thing that presents itself. I remember being young and believing in things strongly enough to do stupid stuff for the sake of abstract ideals.

So if you believe this about Merrill, that it's "stupid stuff," why are you blaming Marethari and the others for trying to stop her?

The best way to wind it up is to say: Merrill, of all the companions, wasn't in it for herself. She was doing it for her people, when nobody else dared.

Ah, BS.  It was her pride and ambition as much as "for her people."  When her people are all saying "no, stop, we don't want this," then it ceases to be self-sacrificing charity.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2011 - 06:56 .

[Pix]

I'm wondering why I never got the letter for the quest with those tomes and the demon. Does anyone know?

[hoorayforicecream]

Pix wrote...

I'm wondering why I never got the letter for the quest with those tomes and the demon. Does anyone know?

You only get the letter if you let Idunna the apostitute live (either go to the circle or escape). You can start the quest yourself by examining any of the evil tomes you find.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Unlike all other mages you meet, Merrill never forced her blood magic or her opinion on anyone. She learned Blood Magic alone, without sacrificing babies. She cleaned and shaped mirror alone. When opposed, she shamely walked from her clan alone, without even trying to have anyone follow her and told Marethari to move on.
And when trying to take advice from a demon, she, again, was ready to give up her life and told Hawke to strike her down if she becomes and abomination, like Hawke was her Templar.

And Marethari:
- Told her clan about Merrill's forbidden art thus effectively banishing her from clan.
- Basically let four hunters to die by Varterral.
- By forcing Merrill to kill her almost had her entire clan be slaughtered after.

By the way, she does't even have a Sacrifice as her blood magic ability. She only sacrifices herself for that cause of her's. I believe she is more of a martyr than Anders could ever be.