260 réponses à ce sujet

[Tumedus]

The way I look at it is if you chose to survive DA:O via the dark ritual, then you really have no stance to criticize Merrill for her actions.

Going in with the most demon ass-kickingest person around to watch your back with the realization that he may have to end you in the process is reprehensible because there is a risk not unlike everything in your daily routine for the last 10 years.

But putting the soul of an arch demon into an unborn baby to make an Old God child birthed of a mother with questionable morals at best, who may or may not be the pawn of a much older, not quite sure what kind of being, of even more questionable morals and intentions is okay.

Every underhanded decision in DA2, even Anders' terrorist act and Isabella causing certain bloodshed by fleeing, pale in comparison to the potential bad that could be unleashed by that decision.

As for that dream sequence where Merrill can fail if you bring her, good writing or not, consider that Hawke succeeds in some fashion regardless. So even if she has doubts about her own ability to deal with the demon, she can feel confident, climbing that mountain, that if anyone can resist the demon and do what needs to be done, its the friend/lover she is bringing with her.

Modifié par Tumedus, 01 avril 2011 - 11:25 .

[Sylriel]

Tumedus wrote...

The way I look at it is if you chose to survive DA:O via the dark ritual, then you really have no stance to criticize Merrill for her actions.

That argument does not apply.  It is meta-gaming.  A single player may play as the Warden in DA:O and as Hawke in DA2, but it does not make them the same "person" within the game's reality.  They are two seperate characters who have never even met each other.

None of the Warden's choices and actions as dictated by the player have any bearing whatsoever to whatever that same player may choose to dictate for Hawke.  Hawke's criticism and judgement (if it applies) of Merrill are his own and dictated by his own experience and beliefs as far as Merrill and the world of Thedas is concerned in game.

[Vhalkyrie]

Sloppy writing?  So now it's not Merrill's fault, the writers made her do it.  

Yes, all friends in the fade betray you, except for Anders who is shielded by Justice.  The point is to show how difficult it is to resist the temptations of a demon in the fade.  It was not too fine a point.  Merrill's sequence shows she was willing to sacrifice Hawke.  I would have thought if someone were in a romance with her, they might have been more disturbed by that.  When romancing Anders, I didn't like when he said nothing was more important than his cause.  She's not too far off from Anders in a single minded pursuit.  She says she doesn't want to hurt anyone, but doesn't mean she isn't.  She hurt them when she abdicated her responsibility as the First.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 01 avril 2011 - 12:43 .

[steve lin]

grimjac100 wrote...

Anders is a terrorist with a cause, completely uncaring of the number of lives he sacrifices to his particular Cause. He basically starts a world war because he doesn't want any sort of compromise. Plus, he's an abomination, having taken `Justice' into himself. And who is to say Justice isn't just a Pride Demon in disguise, pretending to be what Anders wants him to be? Now there's a moral authority for you! "My cause is just, Merrill! Yours is evil! Because it's not my cause, that's why!"

a good inference!

Anders should be possessed by a great pride demon. and he take his scheme very careful until the end.

at the point, I shouldn't help the first enchanter of the circle. because this is Anders' (the pride demon's) perfect plan.

however, if my Hawke sides the templars' force, the leader is to overdo the mages.

I think my Hawke ought to have a third option. and this might be why some people feel Act 3 should have a better way.

Modifié par steve lin, 01 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Hawke's criticism and judgement (if it applies) of Merril

People kinda judge and criticize characters here from their own modern perspective of good and evil. If you only do it from Hawke's perspective, then either you forgot to turn off the game, or to take your morning pills.
To make it clearer - if someone sees Dark Ritual moral, but calls Merrills actions as immoral, on a basis of some universal morality, his views can be perceived as flawed. I think that's what Tumedos meant.

[steve lin]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sloppy writing?  So now it's not Merrill's fault, the writers made her do it.  

Yes, all friends in the fade betray you, except for Anders who is shielded by Justice.  The point is to show how difficult it is to resist the temptations of a demon in the fade.  It was not too fine a point.  Merrill's sequence shows she was willing to sacrifice Hawke.  I would have thought if someone were in a romance with her, they might have been more disturbed by that.  When romancing Anders, I didn't like when he said nothing was more important than his cause.  She's not too far off from Anders in a single minded pursuit.  She says she doesn't want to hurt anyone, but doesn't mean she isn't.  She hurt them when she abdicated her responsibility as the First.

sadly, no one is reliable, by the faith...

Anders can not be tempted, might because he has possessed by a great pride demon, who has a perfect plan to destroy the templars.

at this point, I feel some inbalance between spirits and being.
that is, a demon like a virus, it's hard to be detected. until the demon reveals himself.
and the templars can not detect a possessed human, until an abomination is shown in front of the templars.

so there should be "exorcismers" to balance the system, such as a warden VS a dark spawn, or a priest VS a vampire.

Modifié par steve lin, 01 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[Addai]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Unlike all other mages you meet, Merrill never forced her blood magic or her opinion on anyone. She learned Blood Magic alone, without sacrificing babies. She cleaned and shaped mirror alone. When opposed, she shamely walked from her clan alone, without even trying to have anyone follow her and told Marethari to move on.
And when trying to take advice from a demon, she, again, was ready to give up her life and told Hawke to strike her down if she becomes and abomination, like Hawke was her Templar.

And Marethari:
- Told her clan about Merrill's forbidden art thus effectively banishing her from clan.
- Basically let four hunters to die by Varterral.
- By forcing Merrill to kill her almost had her entire clan be slaughtered after.

By the way, she does't even have a Sacrifice as her blood magic ability. She only sacrifices herself for that cause of her's. I believe she is more of a martyr than Anders could ever be.

Merrill was keeper's first- by involving herself in the eluvian and blood magic, she involved her clan.  She also started consulting the demon before Hawke was on the scene.

Once again:  Marethari's actions don't excuse Merrill's.  Two, or three or four, wrongs don't make a right.

[Addai]

Tumedus wrote...

The way I look at it is if you chose to survive DA:O via the dark ritual, then you really have no stance to criticize Merrill for her actions.

I don't see this comparison at all.  Yes, the DR was shady and may prove to be bad juju, but Morrigan does not truck with demons so she's more trustworthy in that sense.  The DR is also about survival, not some elusive pursuit of a magical object.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Two, or three or four, wrongs don't make a right.

I think you oversimplify here. People actually make many wrongs before they do anything right.
Second, Merrill did't envolve anyone into Eluvian, elvish Warden did.
And she certaintly did't envolve anyone into blood magic - never teached anyone, never talked about it, keeped her secret, because she seemed to understand that, running for your personal demons and confronting them it's something one must do alone.
Her greatest wrong did't happen, and thus she maybe never learned true lesson from it - which should be her personal lesson about blood magic, elvish past and cost of dabbling into that stuff. What Marethari did was, well, once again she acted as a parent who prefers to speak about fire or even burn himself, instead of letting his kid to burn itself and learn a lesson much needed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sloppy writing?  So now it's not Merrill's fault, the writers made her do it.  

Yes, all friends in the fade betray you, except for Anders who is shielded by Justice.  The point is to show how difficult it is to resist the temptations of a demon in the fade.  It was not too fine a point.  Merrill's sequence shows she was willing to sacrifice Hawke. 

It "shows" that all the companions, no matter what, are willing to do so, because that's where the writer wanted to go with it.  No consideration for anything about any of the characters, other than Anders already being possessed.

Merrill's knowledge and magic, Aveline's honor and morality, Fenris' hatred of being enslaved, Varric's cunning, etc, all mean nothing in the face of the writer's pet "ohemmgee, demons is uber, i can haz ur solez" moment  


I think I'll try going in with just Hawke next time.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Addai67 wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Unlike all other mages you meet, Merrill never forced her blood magic or her opinion on anyone. She learned Blood Magic alone, without sacrificing babies. She cleaned and shaped mirror alone. When opposed, she shamely walked from her clan alone, without even trying to have anyone follow her and told Marethari to move on.
And when trying to take advice from a demon, she, again, was ready to give up her life and told Hawke to strike her down if she becomes and abomination, like Hawke was her Templar.

And Marethari:
- Told her clan about Merrill's forbidden art thus effectively banishing her from clan.
- Basically let four hunters to die by Varterral.
- By forcing Merrill to kill her almost had her entire clan be slaughtered after.

By the way, she does't even have a Sacrifice as her blood magic ability. She only sacrifices herself for that cause of her's. I believe she is more of a martyr than Anders could ever be.

Merrill was keeper's first- by involving herself in the eluvian and blood magic, she involved her clan.  She also started consulting the demon before Hawke was on the scene.

Once again:  Marethari's actions don't excuse Merrill's.  Two, or three or four, wrongs don't make a right.

What did Merrill do wrong?  Nothing.  She never had a chance to. 

EVERYTHING bad that happened was the direct result of someone else's reaction, their fear, their ignorance.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[Vhalkyrie]

There is nothing inconsistent about what we saw in the characters in the fade. I thought it was a great sequence that gave us intimate insight into the characters. I went into the fade spoiler free. I expected Isabela to turn. Would you believe I actually expected Merrill to be the one to hold out? First playthrough, I believed her that she said she knew what she was doing to that point. When she did not, I understood what the writers were trying to say. I was surprised to learn that Fenris was willing to trade for power on par with the magisters. During the 'apology' discussion with him after, no matter what path you take, either friend or rival, he is greatly shocked and disturbed by that insight as well. Merrill's apology discussion did not ring the same - she held the line that she could handle it. Said to me she learned nothing.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 01 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

All that fuss about Marethati&Merrill reminds me of Anakin's story a little.
Here's a little collage made by comic artist, Dahr: www.dahr.ru/barbar/albums/userpics/10001/tri.jpg
Translation:
"HOW TO RUIN PALPATINE PLANS (In Three Easy Steppes)
- No fool am I and know I what you speak, Skywalker. But whatever the future hold, on Council's help can rely you.

- We agree to give you Magister's rank AND seat at the Council. It's a great responsibility though, so justify our hopes.

- What? Сhancellor Palpatine is a Sith Lord? Good job, Anakin! Let's go and get him!"

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 01 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

I understood what the writers were trying to say.

.

So did I.  "Demonz iz uberkewlz i can haz solez now?"

[grimjac100]

I call it `sloppy writing' because essentially it disregards most of the previous actions of the game. It makes the whole friendship/rivalry aspect meaningless except to get a few prurient cutscenes.

As killjoy above said, it simply says "Demonz iz uberkewlz I can haz solez now". That's sloppy because it means we're not playing a game or having any effect on the actions of our characters or the outcome of our game. We're watching a movie. If I'm watchng a movie, I'm cool with seeing how the writers envision the story. When I'm playing a video game, I prefer to feel like my decisions influence the outcome.

[Vhalkyrie]

Since this has devolved into "bad writing", "Icanhascheezburger" speak, and a cogent counterpoint can't be made, there's nothing further for me to add.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 01 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[Addai]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Two, or three or four, wrongs don't make a right.

I think you oversimplify here. People actually make many wrongs before they do anything right.
Second, Merrill did't envolve anyone into Eluvian, elvish Warden did.
And she certaintly did't envolve anyone into blood magic - never teached anyone, never talked about it, keeped her secret, because she seemed to understand that, running for your personal demons and confronting them it's something one must do alone.

She lives in a close-knit community and is next in line to be the leader of that community.  There's nothing she does that will not have an impact on her clan.

Mahariel and Tamlen did, very unwisely, stumble on the eluvian, but Merrill should have learned from their mistake.

[LobselVith8]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Since this has devolved into "bad writing", "Icanhascheezburger" speak, and a cogent counterpoint can't be made, there's nothing further for me to add.

I'm not so certain bad writing shouldn't be addressed, though. I mean, an apostate Hawke can use magic openly in front of guards and templars, but they seem to never realize they're dealing with an illegal mage. We also get mages thinking Hawke is a pawn of Meredith, despite being an apostate who openly condemned her and sided with First Enchanter Orsino in "Best Served Cold" simply so we can get hit over the head with the fact that there are bad mages. And I still have no idea how we're supposed to assume that Quentin got his hands on the research from the lost thaig of Amgarrak.

[Addai]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What did Merrill do wrong?  Nothing.  She never had a chance to. 

EVERYTHING bad that happened was the direct result of someone else's reaction, their fear, their ignorance.

Everything that happened was a result, indirectly or not, of Merrill's actions.  If you're driving down a road with "Stop, Turn Back" signs flashing at you every few hundred feet, don't blame the passengers when you're plunging off a cliff.

[LobselVith8]

Addai67 wrote...

She lives in a close-knit community and is next in line to be the leader of that community.  There's nothing she does that will not have an impact on her clan.

But she was exiled and there was supposed to be a new First, and the clan should have left Sundermount years ago.

Addai67 wrote...

Mahariel and Tamlen did, very unwisely, stumble on the eluvian, but Merrill should have learned from their mistake.

She cleansed the Eluvian, and considering Morrigan found it worthwhile enough to enpower the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, I don't see why Merrill shouldn't.

[Addai]

grimjac100 wrote...

I call it `sloppy writing' because essentially it disregards most of the previous actions of the game. It makes the whole friendship/rivalry aspect meaningless except to get a few prurient cutscenes.

As killjoy above said, it simply says "Demonz iz uberkewlz I can haz solez now". That's sloppy because it means we're not playing a game or having any effect on the actions of our characters or the outcome of our game. We're watching a movie. If I'm watchng a movie, I'm cool with seeing how the writers envision the story. When I'm playing a video game, I prefer to feel like my decisions influence the outcome.

Because a story takes a turn you don't expect, that makes it sloppy writing?  Whatever.  It's not like the companions died or permanently left your party.  They were tempted, most of them failed.  They're not infallible.  Yeah, it's horrible writing to make characters that have faults or to have a situation where the PC can't simply force someone to do what she wants. 

Modifié par Addai67, 01 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

She lives in a close-knit community and is next in line to be the leader of that community.  There's nothing she does that will not have an impact on her clan.

But she was exiled and there was supposed to be a new First, and the clan should have left Sundermount years ago.

I'm talking about her initial decision to pursue the eluvian and to consult a demon to do it.

Addai67 wrote...

Mahariel and Tamlen did, very unwisely, stumble on the eluvian, but Merrill should have learned from their mistake.

She cleansed the Eluvian, and considering Morrigan found it worthwhile enough to enpower the Eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes, I don't see why Merrill shouldn't.

She thinks she cleansed the eluvian, because a demon told her it was safe.  Riiight.  The eluvian in the Dragonbone Wastes was not tainted, and anyway who says that it was a good idea for Morrigan to go through it?

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

She thinks she cleansed the eluvian, because a demon told her it was safe. Riiight.

Twas tainted by the Darkspawn, and I don't believe those and demons are actually allies. Even more, I believe that to use a mirror as a gateway into the world, it really should be cleaned from the taint, or who knows what will happen to a demon messing with it. Demons do not seem as the type who would like to be controlled by voice of an Old God. So who knows? Maybe it was cleaned after all. Bloodmagic seems like a powerful tool to battle taint, considering Warden rituals and research (actually, seems it's the ONLY tool capable of it - fight fire with fire). I think true question would be - could Merrill resist the demon, could she fight it for the mirror and banish it? We will never know.
I just know I would like to see it much more than another kneel-fallen "NOOOOOOO!111.." scene.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 01 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Addai67 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
What did Merrill do wrong?  Nothing.  She never had a chance to. 

EVERYTHING bad that happened was the direct result of someone else's reaction, their fear, their ignorance.

Everything that happened was a result, indirectly or not, of Merrill's actions.  If you're driving down a road with "Stop, Turn Back" signs flashing at you every few hundred feet, don't blame the passengers when you're plunging off a cliff.

I guess I missed the scenes where Merrill attacked the rest of her clan, or was possessed, or unleashed the demon, or... 

I could have sworn that Merethari never moved the clan off that foresaken mountain graveyard and away from the demon...

I could have sworn that the Merethari took the demon into herself...

I could have sworn that Merethari whipped the clan into such a state of fear and hate that Pol fled in terror and got himself killed...

I could have sworn that something caused the Varterral to turn on the Dalish clan years after Merrill left, and Merethari still didn't move the camp... 

I could have sword that the clan attacked Merrill after Merethari forced Merrill and Hawke to kill her...

[Addai]

Yes, little innocent Merrill did nothing at all. I get it, I get it. [/thread]