53 réponses à ce sujet

[egervari]

Here's one plot point I don't quite understand.

I thought the Reapers were supposed to use the Citadel as a relay to invade. But now that this is no longer a possibility, we are to learn that they always had another means of getting here via the Alpha relay? Why not just use that from the start?

At this point, I'm a little confused about the storyline honestly. There was only 1 reaper, and it was destoryed. In ME2, we are lead to believe that the collectors were around this entire time and were working for the Repears, but there weren't any actual repears other than the one giant human hybrid at the end of the game.

At this point, I don't know how the Repears intend to invade as I don't see how they can. They can't create new Repears in this part of space, and the Citadel's use as a relay was stopped by the Proteans and by Shepard.

So now we are to believe that this Alpha relay is the key? Why not just use this from day 1 then?

The thing I don't like about writers sometimes is when they invent things. They say, "Well, just because we didn't mention an Alpha Relay doesn't mean it never existed." But I think that's kind of a cheap way to tell a story.. no?

[sporeian]

Backup plan

The citadel thing makes sense, they literally destroy all military in one swoop.

[Tazzmission]

egervari wrote...

Here's one plot point I don't quite understand.

I thought the Reapers were supposed to use the Citadel as a relay to invade. But now that this is no longer a possibility, we are to learn that they always had another means of getting here via the Alpha relay? Why not just use that from the start?

At this point, I'm a little confused about the storyline honestly. There was only 1 reaper, and it was destoryed. In ME2, we are lead to believe that the collectors were around this entire time and were working for the Repears, but there weren't any actual repears other than the one giant human hybrid at the end of the game.

At this point, I don't know how the Repears intend to invade as I don't see how they can. They can't create new Repears in this part of space, and the Citadel's use as a relay was stopped by the Proteans and by Shepard.

So now we are to believe that this Alpha relay is the key? Why not just use this from day 1 then?

The thing I don't like about writers sometimes is when they invent things. They say, "Well, just because we didn't mention an Alpha Relay doesn't mean it never existed." But I think that's kind of a cheap way to tell a story.. no?

vigil explains in me1 that the citadel is the heart of living civilization and the same thing happened to his people, the point of the citadel as a relay was to take down the citadel fleet in one swift attack. now the alpha relay is in batarian space that the reapers use as plan B to continue the 50.000 year old doom cycle

[harazal]

As Sporeian says, the intial plan was always to appear on top of the citadel, and take out the entire command and control structure.

After that then, if i recall correctly, no one ever said the reapers would be coming through the omega relay. The relay was for shepard to get to the collectors, not for the reapers to come to earth.

That leaves only another relay for them to come to our system. As it stands now, they have to warp in, and then face an entire galaxy who still has a functioning military, command structure and intelligence network. It was shown at the end of ME1, that as powerful as a reaper was, it can still be destroyed. A back up relay would always be a terrible last resort for them, but their back is to the wall now.

Honestly, its not that much of a stretch at all. They have to come from somewhere, otherwise shepard would be dust by the time they traveled across the unvierse.

So no, not cheap, not if you look at the story.

[Magnus4096]

Pay attention to where the relay is on the map. The reapers are flying into the galaxy from beyond the galactic outer rim at regular FTL speeds. Their destination is the first mass relay they come across, which happens to be alpha. Using it, they can invade the Citadel, Earth, etc.

[Xivai]

Right, but there was no build up to this. It seems like a deus ex machina. Just an excuse plot to be there. I know they are supposed to be all "omnipotent" but I would like to learn about this as I go along. Otherwise you can have tickle me cute 15 foot tall death robots firing concentrated tickle as a last resort weapon because they "had it as a backup plan". Now anything can be a backup plan. Wooo woooo the silly train is boarding.

[Magnus4096]

Xivai wrote...

Right, but there was no build up to this. It seems like a deus ex machina. Just an excuse plot to be there. I know they are supposed to be all "omnipotent" but I would like to learn about this as I go along. Otherwise you can have tickle me cute 15 foot tall death robots firing concentrated tickle as a last resort weapon because they "had it as a backup plan". Now anything can be a backup plan. Wooo woooo the silly train is boarding.

It isn't conceivable that there would be a standard mass relay in a system on the outer rim? It isn't a special relay at all; it's just the first one the reapers will come across on their way into the galaxy. What's so hard about that to understand?

[Xivai]

Wow wow wow.... these guys can travel through ****ing darkspace without gates? Holy ****.... we're totally screwed! What are we going to do! I knew they didn't need the Mass Relays... really. They had to build all of those gates somehow.

Okay if its a standard relay and its JUST the first they are getting too it makes more sense. But unfortunately this isn't implied because there was no ****ing dialogue to explain this. Just waves of mooks. Though I specifically remember them saying that relay can link to all of the others. None of the others can do that. So IS it an alpha or not? Dialogue would have helped because now we have an ass pull story and no explanation/data.

Modifié par Xivai, 29 mars 2011 - 06:55 .

[Magnus4096]

Xivai wrote...

Wow wow wow.... these guys can travel through ****ing darkspace without gates? Holy ****.... we're totally screwed! What are we going to do! I knew they didn't need the Mass Relays... really. They had to build all of those gates somehow.

Okay if its a standard relay and its JUST the first they are getting too it makes more sense. But unfortunately this isn't implied because there was no ****ing dialogue to explain this. Just waves of mooks. Though I specifically remember them saying that relay can link to all of the others. None of the others can do that. So IS it an alpha or not? Dialogue would have helped because now we have an ass pull story and no explanation/data.

Just to let you know, all races, Reapers and Citadel races, have the ability to go FTL without mass relays. It's just MUCH MUCH slower than using the relays to jump from point A to point B. Think of relays as freeways compared to standard FTL dirt roads.

This has been a part of canon since the first 10 minutes of ME1 by the way. Not trying to be insulting, just hoping to clarify.

[Xivai]

I know, but the drives they have are clearly not anywhere near the level of the reapers. They were so far out in dark space they could easily see the ENTIRE galaxy. Do you have even the tiniest of inklings how far that is to travel with no relay? DO YOU!?!!!????!!? They've only been traveling since they awoke in dark space at the end of the game. So what a few weeks to months tops? They traveled that VAST distance.

Now the human sublight drives look like snails compared. It's all a matter of perspective. The Reapers must have been traveling immensely fast, or deus ex machina they were plot powered again. Take your pick it's damn fast, even if the relay network was disabled I bet over the course of... say... a hundred years easily spread through the galaxy. I need someone who's good at math/space stuff. But they were going supremely fast. Way faster than anything an organic could do. Though this might be possible due to their pure mechanical construction to utilize other more hostile forms of sublight drives. Either way they have vastly superior drives that any known race.

Edit
It makes sense with what we know of Reapers. Over sized drive cores, and that ship shouldn't even be able to land from Mass Effect 1. It also did a U-turn that should have torn it in half. While the Relay's are far more efficient once in place, I doubt simply shutting down the network will do anything to them other than delay the inevitable and make yourselves istting targets unable to co-ordinate with anywhere else int eh galaxy.

Modifié par Xivai, 29 mars 2011 - 07:13 .

[Bloggers99]

Xivai wrote...

I know, but the drives they have are clearly not anywhere near the level of the reapers. They were so far out in dark space they could easily see the ENTIRE galaxy. Do you have even the tiniest of inklings how far that is to travel with no relay? DO YOU!?!!!????!!? They've only been traveling since they awoke in dark space at the end of the game. So what a few weeks to months tops? They traveled that VAST distance.

Now the human sublight drives look like snails compared. It's all a matter of perspective. The Reapers must have been traveling immensely fast, or deus ex machina they were plot powered again. Take your pick it's damn fast, even if the relay network was disabled I bet over the course of... say... a hundred years easily spread through the galaxy. I need someone who's good at math/space stuff. But they were going supremely fast. Way faster than anything an organic could do. Though this might be possible due to their pure mechanical construction to utilize other more hostile forms of sublight drives. Either way they have vastly superior drives that any known race.

Because they couldn't have awoken the moment Sovereign died? You only see the Reaper fleet moving. It doesn't tell you that's happening at the very moment you beat ME2.

[Xivai]

So your saying that's a flash backward in time? How are we supposed to know this? What the **** kind of sloppy narrative/story telling is that if it's a flash back to when they woke up after sovereign is killed and they never tell us. That just makes Bioware look even more inept, and your really pulling at strings here. Now we could start saying a lot of things we see are out of place or jumbled up in time to justify anything.

At this rate your going to destroy the very narrative framework of the story. We won't know anything if you keep trying to find excuses for ANYTHING to happen.

Modifié par Xivai, 29 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Bloggers99]

It's not justifying anything. Your whining about something shown to you in third person perspective to enhance the suspense of the imminent Reaper invasion. Tone it down a notch and get over yourself.

[Magnus4096]

Xivai wrote...

I know, but the drives they have are clearly not anywhere near the level of the reapers. They were so far out in dark space they could easily see the ENTIRE galaxy. Do you have even the tiniest of inklings how far that is to travel with no relay? DO YOU!?!!!????!!? They've only been traveling since they awoke in dark space at the end of the game. So what a few weeks to months tops? They traveled that VAST distance.

Now the human sublight drives look like snails compared. It's all a matter of perspective. The Reapers must have been traveling immensely fast, or deus ex machina they were plot powered again. Take your pick it's damn fast, even if the relay network was disabled I bet over the course of... say... a hundred years easily spread through the galaxy. I need someone who's good at math/space stuff. But they were going supremely fast. Way faster than anything an organic could do. Though this might be possible due to their pure mechanical construction to utilize other more hostile forms of sublight drives. Either way they have vastly superior drives that any known race.

Even so, it was never mentioned exactly how far out the Reapers were lying dormant in the first place. Judging by the last few seconds of ME2, I'd say that with the advanced FTL tech the Reapers presumably possess (again, we are going faster than light - it is never mentioned exactly HOW MUCH faster that is though) I'd say that's a very doable distace for a hyper-advanced race of machines who do this kind of thing for a living.

[Xivai]

YES IT IS! Your trying to justify the reapers somehow getting there on time and not with super fast drives. Don't try and hide the argument. Okay I'm done your just going to loop this around.

Edit
THATS WHAT I'm tryinng to say MAgnus. It's very doable! They don't NEED the Relay's it's just instantaneous. Otherwise it could take them at least a hundred or so years to spread out with sub light drives and destroy organics. Which far surpasses what humans can do. If you were agreeing with me... thank you.

Modifié par Xivai, 29 mars 2011 - 07:20 .

[Magnus4096]

Xivai wrote...

YES IT IS! Your trying to justify the reapers somehow getting there on time and not with super fast drives. Don't try and hide the argument. Okay I'm done your just going to loop this around.

Edit
THATS WHAT I'm tryinng to say MAgnus. It's very doable! They don't NEED the Relay's it's just instantaneous. Otherwise it could take them at least a hundred or so years to spread out with sub light drives and destroy organics.

Above all, you're forgetting it's science FICTION. Suspention of disbelief for the sake of narrative and cinematic impact is necessary. It's much harder to enjoy sci-fi as a sceptic point of veiw. Try to work with what the narrative gives you in terms of what you know of Reaper technology and what they are capable of, and it's not that hard to imagine the Reapers arriving in a reasonable amount of time.

[BL00D_B0TTLER]

The new Arrival DLC (in which the reapers reach the Alpha relay at the edge of the galaxy) is playable at any point after Horizon. Therefore (depending on how you play the game) the reapers are already entering galactic space before you take on the suicide mission.

This suggests to me that the reapers have been travelling across dark space for 2+ years, ever since sovereign was destroyed at the end of ME1. I agree that this doesn't fit with the last shot of ME2 (the reapers with the galaxy laid out in the distance before them) but I prefer to think of that as just Bioware's cinematic 'money shot' letting you know that the reapers are on their way...

[JustinTR]

I think the point he's trying to make is that the reapers getting here is inevitable because they can get here through ftl. Im pretty sure shepard knows its inevitable. Destroying the relay buys them valuable time to use the proof to rally the races of the galaxy. To FSU

[Gibb_Shepard]

Magnus4096 wrote...

Xivai wrote...

YES IT IS! Your trying to justify the reapers somehow getting there on time and not with super fast drives. Don't try and hide the argument. Okay I'm done your just going to loop this around.

Edit
THATS WHAT I'm tryinng to say MAgnus. It's very doable! They don't NEED the Relay's it's just instantaneous. Otherwise it could take them at least a hundred or so years to spread out with sub light drives and destroy organics.

Above all, you're forgetting it's science FICTION. 

I absolutely HATE it when people use that as an excuse for a plot hole, poor plot device or just a crap plot. Just because it's science fiction, DOES NOT mean they have to be lazy with the plot elements for the sake of more s'plosions.

[Magnus4096]

I absolutely HATE it when people use that as an excuse for a plot hole, poor plot device or just a crap plot. Just because it's science fiction, DOES NOT mean they have to be lazy with the plot elements for the sake of more s'plosions.

Please, elighten me about these glaring plot holes/poor devices you speak of. I say this with all due respect, but the problem with people like you is that you have to question EVERY detail instead of at least attempting to find your own answers. Sci-fi is an open canvas, not a chizzled stone tablet. Yes, suspension of disbelief can only go so far, but having an overly-skeptical attitude in a genre like sci-fi isn't doing anyone any good.

tl;dr

Trying to find ways to make the plot work is much more satisfying than picking it apart. Try it sometime.

Modifié par Magnus4096, 29 mars 2011 - 08:32 .

[Palin Freeborn]

Magnus4096 wrote...

Please, elighten me about these glaring plot holes/poor devices you speak of. I say this with all due respect, but the problem with people like you is that you have to question EVERY detail instead of at least attempting to find your own answers. Sci-fi is an open canvas, not a chizzled stone tablet. Yes, suspention of disbeleif can only go so far, but having an overly-skeptical attitude in a genre like sci-fi isn't doing anyone any good.

tl;dr

Trying to find ways to make the plot work is much more fun than picking it apart. Try it sometime.

I concur.

If you're too fussy and discriminating... or, for that matter, unimaginative... to fill in the blanks or rough transitions in the story, then I highly recommend you check out the Mass Effect wiki (http://masseffect.wi...ass_Effect_Wiki), because the rest of the people who bought the game were inventive enough to do all your critical thinking for you.

~Palin

[Kidd]

Their FTL drives are way faster than ours, how hard is it to grasp that idea and how is it not feasible? Still not even close to a quarter as fast as a mass relay, but still way faster than we can imagine. It's not odd, they've evolved for millions of years longer.

[Gabey5]

sporeian wrote...

Backup plan

The citadel thing makes sense, they literally destroy all military in one swoop.

[overbite]

egervari wrote...

Here's one plot point I don't quite understand.

I thought the Reapers were supposed to use the Citadel as a relay to invade.

yeah i don't like this new plot element either, to me it cheapens the feel of the first game .

i haven't played the dlc "yet" it's not out but from watching the trailer when the startement

"the reapers will be arriving in the system, from here the reapers can invade anywhere in the galaxy"

sheppard:
"your saying the reapers can be at earth in two days?"

my heart sank

i'm starting the think that mass effect is a great stand alone game with a great story , with mass effect 2 and probably mass effect 3 are good  just for the gameplay because the weak story is starting to show with the series mass effect 2 barely had any story other than the loyality missions and the dlc.

in other words the arrival dlc is basically wiping it's behind with the original mass effect story because the alpha gate makes the citadel pointless.

when the reapers could "invade anywhere" .

Modifié par overbite, 29 mars 2011 - 09:50 .

[matt-bassist]

Xivai have you played Arrival already? you seem to have a great deal of knowledge than the rest of us about this DLC...