145 réponses à ce sujet

[Avissel]

Asperius wrote...
If you think he is the Champion of Kirkwall he disgrace himself with either following a lunatic woman and killing innocent mages or siding and supporting Blood mages/Abominations to defy will of the Maker. I see little to no reason for Seekers to desperately seeking this kinda guy to help them with world class event. Cullen is more important as he turned against his superior to protect mages and ending the conflict.

In my opinion ending a conflict with whatever way you find is more impressive than adding one more blade to one side of it.

Cullen didn't turn against Meredith when the order to kill mages was issued. He turned against her because of the order to kill Hawke, he also didn't "End the conflict" Hawke did by killing both Orsino and Meredith.

As Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall he is already famous, he is a well known person. He becomes a rallying figure at the end because the Seekers can say "Here is the famous person that sided with the Mages/Templars"

You are ethier a rallying symbol for Mages because you helped them win freedom in Kirkwall, or your are a rally for Templars because you helped stop the mage uprising.

Which ever side you picked has reason to respect you and thus will listen to you, hopefully to the end of stoping the civil war which is what the Seeker's are after.

[FedericoV]

Avissel wrote...

Hawke is still useless in the greater conflict of the mage vs templar war that starts at the end of DA2. The whole point of the story is to make Hawke a rallying figure for which ever side he choose. Nobody will rally around the guy who solved the issue by killing both sides. Hawke may have ended up important to Kirkwall, but the point of the story was to make him important on the world stage.

That's the point of Bioware, not the point of the player. I could stop to play videgames with DA2 and I could not care less about continuity and canon, especially if the game's betray his promises.

If that's the way you are building your story (hawke have to be at the center of the conflict between mages and templars in thedas), we should have only a paragon/renegade option just like ME2 (mageish and templarish).

You cannot give me nuances and possibilities and choices during the course of the whole game, let me see how cool is it to be the sarcastic neutral and then at the end of the game say to me: sorry, we were joking, we have our story to tell since we have DLC, expansions and DA3 for you to buy, so now we step in and railroad you no matter what you did or who you are.

You cannot force me to eat a crap sandwich not for the story in itself but for what you are planning for the franchise or o make a philosophical stand in a videogame with elves and dwarves. That's not the way. And the more I discuss, and the more I loose the drive to even finish the game...

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[Avissel]

So you honestly want the option to have Hawke's story be "and in the end he didn't really matter"?


Like I said, I didn't see anybody ****ing that Origins didn't have the option of "run away and let someone else handle it"

Did Baulder's Gate have a "Don't get involved" option?

[FedericoV]

Lithuasil wrote...

It can be a game as much as it wants, that doesn't change the fact that real life analogies help getting points across. The Arishok turned on a neutral party trying to help him, without *any* reason to do so.

They killed its unarmed ambassadors that were under the protection of the Viscount. Remember the war betwenn Greece and Persia? The war started because a similar fact, and Persians killed all kind of greece people, not only the spartans who were responsible for the fact.

[Lithuasil]

Who's bringing in real life examples now?
And would you respect the persians, for laying siege on a greek city, that actively tried to punish sparta for killing the ambassadors?

[FedericoV]

Avissel wrote...

So you honestly want the option to have Hawke's story be "and in the end he didn't really matter"?

No, I want a story were I'm not forced to eat a crap sandwich for the delight of bioware's writers and market department. I want to be able to decide and not be railroded to take sides in a war I could not care less and were both parties are plainly wrong, corrupt and evil, so Hawke could be the protagonist in an expansion in Orlais... I don't wanto to play a story where the result of my actions are only to make the world a worst place than it was before because "it's more cool and we wanto you to reflect on the price of freedom".

At least, give me the freedom to choose who is the Champion of Kirkwall. What's the problem is siding with the city guards and fighting both parties? At the end, you have to fight templars and mages no matter what side you choose even now... you could have make choices and arrangements wich affects thedas history in the end game.

[FedericoV]

Lithuasil wrote...

Who's bringing in real life examples now?

I was trying to be ironical but re-reading my post I see that it was hard to take, sorry. I'm writing in a hurry . All I'm saying is that the Arishock is wrong loosing its temper, but his reaction was provoked and its view of Kirkwall far from being wrong (I do not agree with his solution, but you could not call him wrong having seen most aspects of Kirkwall...).

[Avissel]

I already covered that.

If you siding with the city guard just leads to a scenario where Hawke would be the enemy of both Templar's and Mages world wide instead of a potential ally of one side. It makes him a poor character to use in any following games. "The guy nobody likes."

Also you technically DO side with the Guard, because odds are that Aveline sides with you, and she controls the guards, which mean the guards are on your side either way.

Modifié par Avissel, 30 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[Lithuasil]

There's also the thing, that leading a few dozen city guards against a circle full of abominations, and a whole garrison of templars is complete suicide

[FedericoV]

Avissel wrote...

I already covered that.

If you siding with the city guard just leads to a scenario where Hawke would be the enemy of both Templar's and Mages world wide instead of a potential ally of one side.

And why should I choose one side if I hate both and they are both clearly wrong? What is the point? Selling me DA3? The franchise could die tomorrow if EA change its plan on it. Having said that, I would rather be the champion of the people than the ally of blood mages or neo-nazy templars.

[FedericoV]

Lithuasil wrote...

There's also the thing, that leading a few dozen city guards against a circle full of abominations, and a whole garrison of templars is complete suicide

And instead now you are leading a party of 4 persons against the full chantry and meredith loyalist. After having killed more living man than Hitler and Stalin put together (plus an High Dragon and a bunch of powerfull demon). Oh, that make sense, sorry .

Modifié par FedericoV, 30 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Avissel wrote...

I already covered that.

If you siding with the city guard just leads to a scenario where Hawke would be the enemy of both Templar's and Mages world wide instead of a potential ally of one side. It makes him a poor character to use in any following games. "The guy nobody likes."

Also you technically DO side with the Guard, because odds are that Aveline sides with you, and she controls the guards, which mean the guards are on your side either way.

If you side with the mages, Aveline only joins you if you've maxed friendship/rivalry, and even then she mentions how she left the Guards to her husband.

The Guards are to restore order, and in Kirkwall that means the Guards are with the Templars.

[Dean_the_Young]

FedericoV wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

There's also the thing, that leading a few dozen city guards against a circle full of abominations, and a whole garrison of templars is complete suicide

And instead now you are leading a party of 4 persons against the full chantry and meredith loyalist.

Oh, that make sense.

It was always depicted and treated as a suicidal last stand anyway.

[Lithuasil]

That's gameplay, not lore. The execution was completely hamfisted, yes, but what's supposed to be going on is two very dangerous forces clashing, and you making it through the chaos just barely. I mean, even when you side with either faction, your companions seem evidently frightened by the upcoming battle. Arguing you take them on anyway, is like saying "why do I need to gather an army to fight the archdemon, I can complete the last level with four people anyway, why bother". (Of course, the gap between gameplay and lore, that's a whole different matter)

[HippeusOmega]

Fact is this civil war has been brewing since the founding of the chantry.

Either A: You side with the mages and let the chantry know mages will no longer be oppressed or

Choice B: Side with the templars and prove once and for all that mages are less then human/elf and make Anders a murder to the cause by killing him.

Modifié par Panznerr, 30 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[backrow]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

CenturyCrow wrote...

Also, how many demons and abominations does a single mage turn into?

Lol.  Considering that demons are supposed to be disembodied spirits that *have* to possess someone/thing in order to interact with the real world, you sure as heck run into a LOT of embodied demons running around.

I actually thought Origins did reasonably well in that regard--you don't even fight that many obvious demons IN THE FADE ITSELF.  But boy did they ever dial it up to 11 in DA2.

The lore and the gameplay is getting increasingly dissociated.

exactly. they shaped the previously perfect and less in your face lore and then proceeded to throw it all away and go into EXTRA DEMON MODE RAWR!!!

[Avissel]

Actually there are codex entries that point to that fact the barrier between the Fade and the real world is very thin in and around Kirkwall, which is why you see so many demons about.

[HippeusOmega]

Avissel wrote...

Actually there are codex entries that point to that fact the barrier between the Fade and the real world is very thin in and around Kirkwall, which is why you see so many demons about.

And we're sure that anders using that spell had nothing to do with tearing the viel even more?

[Lee T]

If I had my say I would have confiscated Meredith's sword and Orsino's staff and only would gave them back when they behave.

Their bickering was one of the few occasions (them and Gamlen mostly) where I really missed Mass Effect 2's renegade interrupts.

[FedericoV]

Lithuasil wrote...

That's gameplay, not lore. The execution was completely hamfisted, yes, but what's supposed to be going on is two very dangerous forces clashing, and you making it through the chaos just barely. I mean, even when you side with either faction, your companions seem evidently frightened by the upcoming battle. Arguing you take them on anyway, is like saying "why do I need to gather an army to fight the archdemon, I can complete the last level with four people anyway, why bother". (Of course, the gap between gameplay and lore, that's a whole different matter)

So, if it's a desperate last stand, there is no point to say that you can do it with mages or templars (but fighting both at the end) but not with city guards + the "good will" individuals in the circle (very hard to find) and the templars (more likely to find).

[HippeusOmega]

Lee T wrote...

If I had my say I would have confiscated Meredith's sword and Orsino's staff and only would gave them back when they behave.

Their bickering was one of the few occasions (them and Gamlen mostly) where I really missed Mass Effect 2's renegade interrupts.

Agreed hence Anders was the renegade interuppt option when he told both to basically stfu and decided it was time for his revoultion to take a stand.

[Lithuasil]

There's the huge difference in numbers for once - and hawke having no authority to command them.

[Avissel]

There is also the fact that Mages can hurl fireballs, and Templar's are specially trained and equipped to fight mages. The City Guard just aren't much match for them, Aveline even says so in one banter with Anders, she ask for advice of capturing mages to give to the Guardsmen.

[VanTesla]

During the year gaps the Champion should have been investigating who conspired with your Mothers killer. Notice Merediths new sword is the dam idol.... Then have both Meredith and Orsino jailed/executed.

My gripe is what the heck was the Champion doing the years your are not in control with... Is he/she just jerking around and playing with their thumbs...

[ginzaen]

The Angry One wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

its a game

No, really? I thought it was a chicken.

Can i eat it?