204 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulphe]

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Teddie Sage]

She was so neutral it pissed me off. People from the Chantry rarely takes sides. Instead they use the Chantry Boards...

Also I get your point. She's as much responsible for all these people deaths than the mages and templars were, because she was so stubborn.

[Neesa]

I disagree that she had the "power to end it". I believe she had influence and she should have better used it but I think part of her problem was a subconscious arrogance concerning her position and public esteem. "No one would dare attack the Grand Cleric". Oh, really...<_<

I felt worse for Sebastien to be honest.

Modifié par Neesa, 29 mars 2011 - 08:41 .

[Mahtisonni]

It's not as if she didn't care what happened, but she didn't care enough to actually do anything.
She necessarily did not have the power to end it all, but she could have at least made them stop turning harrowed mages tranquil.

Therefore I don't feel any remorse over her death.
Even if children sometimes need to learn by themselves, I don't think a child necessarily needs to know how to juggle chainsaws that way.

Modifié par Mahtisonni, 29 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[The Lesser Evil]

She DOES have the power to do something. She's the Grand Cleric, a hand of the Divine, and through that has more influence than either the Templar Order (a branch of the Chantry) and the Circle of Mages. She also surpasses the Viscount in power and influence.

I mean, I can see why picking sides with either Meredith or Orsino would have stepped on a lot of toes no matter the choice, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have done it. This is exactly why Anders kills her, because without her the chance for compromise has been removed. If she HAD stepped in sooner, the entire conflict could have been averted.

[Lirea Dragonage]

Just got past killing Varnell and on previous playthroughs I was like, aw Elthina is the nice wise woman kinda like Wynne. But now for some reason I'm mad, after talking with Petrice (who I want to stab so hard) I wanted to shake Elthina. I mean wtf? If she actually went out and SAID the chantry were supposed to be nice and respectful even that might have stopped idiots from doing stupid things in her name. I mean does she not even talk to anyone? Does she just sit in her chantry and when someone asks her something she goes - it's all good child do what you think is right? She might have prevented Petrice's stupid **** if she'd paid attention to what was going on.
On the other hand, I wish Anders didn't blow her up. I would like to drag her out of her chantry and ask her what she'd like to do now the city is in civil war. Would she like to side with the crazy blood mages or the idol-obsessed maniac templar? She'd probably opt to go back into her chantry and get blown up ...
DA3 = time to overthrough the chantry, goodbye to organised religion!

[Ruben Thomas]

I definitely agree with you, no one in that church were innocent in my opinion, they all had blood on their hands simply for standing by and doing nothing while their subjects caused harm

I still don't agree with what Ander's did though, and I like Sebastian, it will be very difficult for me to make a decision when I get to the end of the game of this playthrough (didn't have The Exiled Prince on my first one)

Overall however, Grand Cleric Elthina is probably one of my very least favourite characters in the whole game. She beats even Grace and Mother Petrice, because those two I actually resented deeply  (a strong emotional response means it's a well written character I feel), but Grand Cleric Elthina just annoyed me a little and made me go "Meh, why!? You make no sense." and then I forgot about her until the end of the game <_<

[Sabriana]

The Chantry is the controlling body. The templars answer to the Chantry, and the Chantry keeps them in check with religious zealotry and lyrium. So by simply threatening to withholding the lyrium, they can control the templars. Granted, not all are hooked on the blue stuff, but most are.

She has the power to confine Orsino to quarters (albeit "gently"), and to tell Meredith to go away "like a good girl".

Even Cullen bemoans the fact that the Grand Cleric is making things much worse with her stance. I don't remember the direct quote but it's something in the way of "she is making everything worse with her neutral stance, giving the mages hope for a rebellion".

And that's Cullen. The same Cullen who wanted to kill all mages in the Ferelden circle just because of the off chance that they harbor a demon.

[PlumPaul93]

Wulphe wrote...

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Did you romance anders? If you did that is the reason why.

[Aramintai]

She is worse than Orsino and Meredith put together by smugly hiding behind her high morality and "neutral" position, pretending to sympathize and being indecisive on the verge of apathy. So the Chantry stance is neutrality but is it lacking compassion as well? When such a bloody mess is going on under its nose it cannot be so apathetic and shortsighted as to not see how the rising tensions are hurting not only those involved but ordinary citizens as well. She had power to peacefully resolve the situation all that time yet she sat and done nothing, praying for the Maker to resolve it all by himself. I'm sure Maker is not happy to see her at his side right now seeing how it all led to worldwide bloodshed.

[The Angry One]

And yet in the ending, the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, not just the mages.
That sort of hints that the Chantry's hold over the Templars isn't as stable as you think.

[Wulfram]

I do think Elthina could have intervened more forcefully against the zealots in the Qunari affair.  I wonder whether it would do any good, but I can't see the harm.

In the Mage/Templar affair, I think she was acting wisely.  I can't see a decisive intervention on either side doing anything except sparking a rebellion.  As it was, her attempts to create a compromise solution through quiet diplomacy were promising enough that Anders considered it necessary to kill her.

[Cell1e]

I agree with OP. I felt a little sorry for Elthina the first time it happened but on reflection it seems to me that she and the whole 'chantry/church' has totally/mostly ignored the plight of the mages and elves for years and years. I have absolutely no sympathy anymore. She was told to leave, warned and in her arrogance decided she was untouchable. I am also sure she had a good idea of the evilness of Petrice, she seemed not one bit surprised by the Petrices actions...how much more did she suspect was going on in her corrupt organisation that she did nothing about?

She could have saved many lives and she didnt. I think it was 'the makers will' for her to go that way. (Hehe)

[Icy Magebane]

I don't know what you thought the Grand Cleric could have done about the Qunari, but the Viscount pretty much tells Hawke that he's playing nice because Kirkwall can't afford an open war. Everyone was trying to just get them to leave, and had it not been for Patrice's machinations, they might have done so. It was her involvement, trying to rally the people against the Qunari, that caused a lot of the bloodshed.

I think that Elthina should have stepped in and supported the Templars more openly during the mage rebellion, but I'm sure that was done simply to give the player an opportunity to decide. After all, whereas I see the mages at fault, it's also true that the Templars were at fault. If Elthina took a side, that would only serve to instill bias in the player. Having a neutral Cleric allows both sides to seem right without a third party intervening...

What I really don't like about the character is her insistence to stay in the Chantry, even after she's warned of Anders' plot. She was way too stubborn, but I guess that's just the nature of religious leaders sometimes. She didn't seem to care about her own life one way or the other, as long as it played a part in the Maker's plan. Not the most practical approach, but she's within her rights.

[PlumPaul93]

Cell1e wrote...

I agree with OP. I felt a little sorry for Elthina the first time it happened but on reflection it seems to me that she and the whole 'chantry/church' has totally/mostly ignored the plight of the mages and elves for years and years. I have absolutely no sympathy anymore. She was told to leave, warned and in her arrogance decided she was untouchable. I am also sure she had a good idea of the evilness of Petrice, she seemed not one bit surprised by the Petrices actions...how much more did she suspect was going on in her corrupt organisation that she did nothing about?

She could have saved many lives and she didnt. I think it was 'the makers will' for her to go that way. (Hehe)

I'll ask again did you romance anders? If so I'd say that's the reason why you don't feel sorry for the grand cleric.

[Aramintai]

Wulfram wrote...
  As it was, her attempts to create a compromise solution through quiet diplomacy were promising enough that Anders considered it necessary to kill her.

Too little, too late.

[Jean]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I don't know what you thought the Grand Cleric could have done about the Qunari, but the Viscount pretty much tells Hawke that he's playing nice because Kirkwall can't afford an open war. Everyone was trying to just get them to leave, and had it not been for Patrice's machinations, they might have done so. It was her involvement, trying to rally the people against the Qunari, that caused a lot of the bloodshed.

I think that Elthina should have stepped in and supported the Templars more openly during the mage rebellion, but I'm sure that was done simply to give the player an opportunity to decide. After all, whereas I see the mages at fault, it's also true that the Templars were at fault. If Elthina took a side, that would only serve to instill bias in the player. Having a neutral Cleric allows both sides to seem right without a third party intervening...

What I really don't like about the character is her insistence to stay in the Chantry, even after she's warned of Anders' plot. She was way too stubborn, but I guess that's just the nature of religious leaders sometimes. She didn't seem to care about her own life one way or the other, as long as it played a part in the Maker's plan. Not the most practical approach, but she's within her rights.

Especially since you can give her a warning three different times. Once after doing Seb's personal quest and warning her about the Divine and a possible March, the second time after Anders' quest, then sailing all the way to the Gallows to tell Cullen that Anders did something to the Chantry.

I'd hope at least she got her "flock" out of the chantry, as much as she was reluctant to leave them and go to Orlais.

But at that point, what's done is done.

Modifié par Batteries, 29 mars 2011 - 09:41 .

[Wulfram]

Aramintai wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
  As it was, her attempts to create a compromise solution through quiet diplomacy were promising enough that Anders considered it necessary to kill her.

Too little, too late.

The impression I get is that she's been working hard behind the scenes to keep the peace between Orsino and Meredith for some time.  It's just she has sense not to force an open confrontation.

[The Angry One]

Wulfram wrote...

Aramintai wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
  As it was, her attempts to create a compromise solution through quiet diplomacy were promising enough that Anders considered it necessary to kill her.

Too little, too late.

The impression I get is that she's been working hard behind the scenes to keep the peace between Orsino and Meredith for some time.  It's just she has sense not to force an open confrontation.

The fact that Orsino was going to see her just before Anders blew her up pretty much confirms this.

[Gabey5]

i don't care for her, her death was meh

[Aramintai]

Batteries wrote...

Especially since you can give her a warning three different times. Once after doing Seb's personal quest and warning her about the Divine and a possible March, the second time after Anders' quest, then sailing all the way to the Gallows to tell Cullen that Anders did something to the Chantry.

I'd hope at least she got her "flock" out of the chantry, as much as she was reluctant to leave them and go to Orlais.

But at that point, what's done is done.

The Plan - become a martyr, ingnite the war, gather more desperate flock between the rock and a hard place. 

Approved by Chantry.

The fact that Orsino was going to see her just before Anders blew her up pretty much confirms this.

It proves nothing but the fact that while she may sympathize to the mages in general, abstractly that doesn't mean she will do anything for them. Just ask the templars about it, I think it was Cullen who said that.

Modifié par Aramintai, 29 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[Kartikeya]

I don't consider Elthina's decision to stay 'arrogance', or some misguided belief that she was untouchable. Quite the opposite, I think she was fairly sure that if violence broke out, she'd be in as much danger as anyone. After all, if an Exalted March shows up at Kirkwall's gates, what are they reeeally going to think of a Grand Cleric who decided to stay in a city they deem badly out of control and heretical rather than returning to the folds of the church?

She is, quite simply, a quiet woman dedicated absolutely to her stance of passivity and neutrality. She cares for the people under her care. She cares for Kirkwall's wellbeing. She seems to believe that her purpose is to be a woman of faith, to guide by example and to trust in the Maker to make things work out. A lot of the things people criticize the Chantry for (aggressive expansion, Exalted Marches, the use of the Templars and the way mages are treated) seem to be things that are anethema to Elthina. Violence is, to her, never the answer. Force is never the answer. The most she ever gives is a stern lecture, an appeal to reason, and a healthy dose of guilt.

And she entirely exacerbates the problems in Kirkwall. Not by being a bad person. By being a very good person whose passivity results in, at best, allowing more aggressive and fanatical factions to run amok, and at worst a swiftly escalating situation that threatens repeatedly to break into armed conflict. Her refusal to use the power she does by right wield does a great deal in allowing the situation to get so very, very bad. But it is simply not within her character to use it. In another city, Denerim, perhaps, or Lothering, Elthina would have likely lived a long, long life being adored by the populace and died of old age in bed. Kirkwall, which desperately needs someone high up to step down and hammer both factions into line (or earlier, crack down hard on their own fanatics, and tell Meredith to stop running the entire freaking city), is the worst possible place for her to be.

I think demonizing Elthina does a lot of disservice to her character. If she's just a bad person, or a hypocrite, or someone worthy of being blown to bits, then the endgame decision is easy and doesn't really carry any weight whatsoever. They may as well have had Petrice be Grand Cleric. That the Grand Cleric is likeable, is a good person who, through her own inaction and attempts to follow her personal code of ethics, makes a bad situation increasingly worse, makes her murder and the conflict it sparks much, much, MUCH more intriguing. It's a deeper, and, in my opinion, better story for it.

[TobiTobsen]

Aramintai wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Especially since you can give her a warning three different times. Once after doing Seb's personal quest and warning her about the Divine and a possible March, the second time after Anders' quest, then sailing all the way to the Gallows to tell Cullen that Anders did something to the Chantry.

I'd hope at least she got her "flock" out of the chantry, as much as she was reluctant to leave them and go to Orlais.

But at that point, what's done is done.

The Plan - become a martyr, ingnite the war, gather more desperate flock between the rock and a hard place. 

Approved by Chantry.

Sounds like she and Anders had the same plan after all

[Wulfram]

I'd have thought the reason why Elthina stays is pretty clear - she's the only one who has a chance of keeping the peace, the only one who has the respect of both sides.

[Foolsfolly]

Anyone watch Futurama? She reminded me of the Neutral planet. In that only episode they exist in, the Prime Minister of the Neutral Planet bares witness to his apparent near-death. And for his possibly final words he says.....

"Tell my wife....hello."

Something tells me Elthina's last words would be similar.