204 réponses à ce sujet

[blauwvis]

Mixed feelings about Elthina.  I felt that her view of the Chantry - that it should serve as a force to guide, not control - was a lovely ideal, but one that was completely out of sync with how the Chantry as a whole, and particularly its military arm, the Templars, actually behaved.  Her hands-off policy was immensely frustrating for most of the game and I wanted to give her a good shaking: "What the f- is all this "don't let it trouble you" nonsense?  Look, lady, bleating about "the Maker's time isn't our time" is all well and good, but people are dying right now and loads more are going to die and we don't have the luxury of kicking back for a few hundred years in the hopes that things will eventually turn out all right."  If she had some sort of behind-the-scenes plan for peace, I wish she would have been a bit more forthcoming about it.

She scored a few points for being wise to Sister Petrice - for the first time it seemed that she might be somewhat savvy - but even then it was a case of too little, too late.  Wish I could have gotten her to flee, all the same, as she seemed like a decent, if irritatingly naive woman.  I almost got the impression that she welcomed martyrdom.

[Sabriana]

The Angry One wrote...

And yet in the ending, the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, not just the mages.
That sort of hints that the Chantry's hold over the Templars isn't as stable as you think.

Everything goes out the window in the end. The circles, the chantry, the templars. But at the time the Elthina factor plays out, the templars are still firmly under chantry control.

My Hawke tells Elthina after the Meredith/Orsino confrontation that "things will get worse". Elthina's answer? "Sad, but true." She then proceeds to thank my Hawke for her intervention and wanders off, leaving my Hawke to stare after her. I so wish she could've yelled after Elthina "Didn't you hear me, woman? It'll get worse if you don't do something!!!"

[The Angry One]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anyone watch Futurama? She reminded me of the Neutral planet. In that only episode they exist in, the Prime Minister of the Neutral Planet bares witness to his apparent near-death. And for his possibly final words he says.....

"Tell my wife....hello."

Something tells me Elthina's last words would be similar.

If that makes Anders Zapp Brannigan this all makes a lot of sense.

Anders: "Once the mages are free, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."

[The Angry One]

Sabriana wrote...

Everything goes out the window in the end. The circles, the chantry, the templars. But at the time the Elthina factor plays out, the templars are still firmly under chantry control.

The firmly part is debatable. 
The Chantry already has to keep them in line through Lyrium addiction, there's only so far someone like Elthina can push someone like Meredith before Meredith starts accusing Elthina of being biased/being no true believer/being controlled by blood magic.

My Hawke tells Elthina after the Meredith/Orsino confrontation that "things will get worse". Elthina's answer? "Sad, but true." She then proceeds to thank my Hawke for her intervention and wanders off, leaving my Hawke to stare after her. I so wish she could've yelled after Elthina "Didn't you hear me, woman? It'll get worse if you don't do something!!!"

She *was* doing something. That's why Anders nuked her.

[Foolsfolly]

The Angry One wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Anyone watch Futurama? She reminded me of the Neutral planet. In that only episode they exist in, the Prime Minister of the Neutral Planet bares witness to his apparent near-death. And for his possibly final words he says.....

"Tell my wife....hello."

Something tells me Elthina's last words would be similar.

If that makes Anders Zapp Brannigan this all makes a lot of sense.

Anders: "Once the mages are free, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate."

Hawke: *Kif Sighs*

[Mnemnosyne]

I agree that she was far too passive for far too long. Three years with Meredith running the city and she allows it? Meredith is under her command. If she'd headed the situation off right from the beginning and forbidden Meredith to try to run the city at all, things would have been different to some degree. If she'd have demanded Meredith follow the Chantry and Templars' own rules - like that big one of 'once a mage passes their harrowing you can't make them tranquil' - then either Meredith would have gone nuts far earlier and shown everyone before sparking all the trouble, or she might have actually backed down.

I agree with the point that, as Grand Cleric of some city without all this commotion, Elthina may have been a good influence, but her refusal to actually be a leader is what caused two wars in Kirkwall.

[Sabriana]

The templars are an arm of the Chantry and controlled by the Chantry. Meredith may be able to accuse Elthina of anything, but it works the other way around too. Elthina can go to her 'supervisor' as well, and demand that Meredith be relocated at least. Meredith's complaint would go to the head of the Chantry, likely the Divine.

Elthina was content to sit in her chapel and let the maker sort out the whole mess. So in that vein, yes, she was doing something, namely nothing; thus furthering the stalemate, and giving mages illusions about rebellion.

[Kartikeya]

Koyasha wrote...

I agree that she was far too passive for far too long. Three years with Meredith running the city and she allows it? Meredith is under her command. If she'd headed the situation off right from the beginning and forbidden Meredith to try to run the city at all, things would have been different to some degree. If she'd have demanded Meredith follow the Chantry and Templars' own rules - like that big one of 'once a mage passes their harrowing you can't make them tranquil' - then either Meredith would have gone nuts far earlier and shown everyone before sparking all the trouble, or she might have actually backed down.

I agree with the point that, as Grand Cleric of some city without all this commotion, Elthina may have been a good influence, but her refusal to actually be a leader is what caused two wars in Kirkwall.

Worse than this even. It's three years since the Viscount's death with Meredith pretty much openly running the city...but Meredith is running the city from before Hawke arrives. I can't remember the timeline, but there was a Viscount, stuff happened, Meredith got rid of him, he got replaced by the Viscount you meet, who is pretty much Mr. No Backbone and Meredith calls the shots. If I remember right, it's emphasized she didn't exactly want the job, but that many years of being in charge seems to have grown on her.

How long has Elthina been Grand Cleric? She should have stepped in long before Hawke arrived. The balance of power in Kirkwall has been grossly uneven in favor of the Templars for a long, long time.

[Cell1e]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Cell1e wrote...

I agree with OP. I felt a little sorry for Elthina the first time it happened but on reflection it seems to me that she and the whole 'chantry/church' has totally/mostly ignored the plight of the mages and elves for years and years. I have absolutely no sympathy anymore. She was told to leave, warned and in her arrogance decided she was untouchable. I am also sure she had a good idea of the evilness of Petrice, she seemed not one bit surprised by the Petrices actions...how much more did she suspect was going on in her corrupt organisation that she did nothing about?

She could have saved many lives and she didnt. I think it was 'the makers will' for her to go that way. (Hehe)

I'll ask again did you romance anders? If so I'd say that's the reason why you don't feel sorry for the grand cleric.

Plumpaul my first romance playthrough was Sebastion then Anders and then Fenris. But each time I supported the mages and Anders for the reasons I stated above. I think it's not enough for a thinking player to support such a drastic act of terrorism without good reason. But it seems as if you think that anyone that agrees with op has to be blindly in love with Anders. Not so; if you read the posts properly you will see people have good reasons to feel a lack of sympathy for Elthina and the chantry.

[elearon1]

Kartikeya wrote...I think demonizing Elthina does a lot of disservice to her character..

This, I think you nailed it pretty solidly on the head.  I liked and respected the Grand Cleric, but her unwillingness to break her neutral stance and stubbornness in refusing to leave when she was in danger both frustrated the hell out of me.  I still saw her death as tragic, and in my second playthrough I am seriously considering killing Anders over it, but  I do wonder if she couldn't have prevented the outcome if she'd been a little harder.

To misquote "The dark knight", She was the woman the city deserved, but not the one it needed. 

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know, elearon1. Her job was to keep the Knight-Commander in check. She had a responsibility not only to the Templar but to the mages under their care. Her inaction allowed this whole thing to spiral.

Like someone once said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[Kartikeya]

That quote seems to sum up her character beautifully.

[blauwvis]

The Angry One wrote...

She *was* doing something. That's why Anders nuked her.

Not trying to challenge you, just curious:  what was she doing?  Aside from staying remote, which seemed to me the reason that Anders nuked her, given that he was always going on about this being war and everyone had to pick a side.  All she was doing was drawing things out, even if that wasn't her intention.  Even Cullen expressed the belief that she was, in effect, stringing the mages along by refusing to side with them but also refusing to give them a flat out "no, get back in your place."

I only ever got the impression that Orsino was going to see her in order to plead with her to rein Meredith in (again), since she'd been making unreasonable demands (again), which was only ever going to be a temporary solution (again).  Not that there was any secret deal-making happening.  But I've only done one playthrough and it's entirely possible that I missed clues or conversations or whatnot.

[Aramintai]

Kartikeya wrote...

How long has Elthina been Grand Cleric? She should have stepped in long before Hawke arrived. The balance of power in Kirkwall has been grossly uneven in favor of the Templars for a long, long time.

Chantry in Kirkwall is worthy of  "rotten from the head" title. Grand Cleric was weak and apathetic leader, not even bothering to take interest and active hand in what is going on within her own chantry, like that mother Petrice and Qunari business, let alone the subsidiary Templar arm. Her calm and evasively diplomatic demeanor might have worked well in peaceful times, but when push came to shove Meredith walked all over her.

Modifié par Aramintai, 29 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[Estelindis]

Elthina had authority over the mages and templars - she was able to defuse some of the tensions between them because they had to listen to her due to chantry hierarchy.  But not every Andrastian was going to heed her words in the same way - just like not everyone follows the guidance of their own real-life religious leaders.  In terms of specific members of the chantry who were killing, torturing, and raising racial tensions, she acted decisively once she was shown evidence (I honestly thought Petrice was going to squirm her way out of trouble again, but Elthina wasn't having any of it).  Certainly she could have acted better with the benefit of hindsight, but she was just one woman doing the best she could, trying to be a voice of peace and consensus.  I think she was far more of a martyr in the end than Anders could ever be.

[MICHELLE7]

Wulphe wrote...

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

I did the same thing you did...didn't talk to Elthina until my second playthorugh and I was kind of shocked at some of her responses. I think one time I was asking information about a quest and she refused to give me any on the grounds that "gossip was a sin". I mean give me a break...life and death situations and your more interested in your own self righteousness than in possibly saving lives. I think Elthina was about Elthina...she kinda gives that away when she refuses to leave the chantry during Sebastion's quest...with great swelling words of arrogance and pride she declares "I am Grand Cleric".  I didn't feel sorry for her at all.

[Gadarr]

Estelindis wrote...

Elthina had authority over the mages and templars - she was able to defuse some of the tensions between them because they had to listen to her due to chantry hierarchy.  But not every Andrastian was going to heed her words in the same way - just like not everyone follows the guidance of their own real-life religious leaders.  In terms of specific members of the chantry who were killing, torturing, and raising racial tensions, she acted decisively once she was shown evidence (I honestly thought Petrice was going to squirm her way out of trouble again, but Elthina wasn't having any of it).  Certainly she could have acted better with the benefit of hindsight, but she was just one woman doing the best she could, trying to be a voice of peace and consensus.  I think she was far more of a martyr in the end than Anders could ever be.

I'd also like to add that although in theory, the Grand Cleric could order Meredith and her templars around, things are very likely to be very different in reality - and I believe that Elthina has a good idea of just how far she can push the templar commander. And it's not very far.

There's a difference in having people politely listen to your talking out of respect and people actually following your orders. Moreover, Meredith doesn't strike me as the type of person who would bow down to the Grand Cleric and step aside once she indeed takes a definite side and orders her to cut it. I think it's pretty likely that Meredith would agree to obey openly and henceforth work behind the Grand Clerics back. Because she's got an agenda, because she knows everything best and because she's been the factual leader of Kirkwall for quite a while. And Elthina lacks the means to actually enforce her command. At least immediatly.

So... could and should she have been more active? Probably. Maybe she should have asked for templar reinforcements from somewhere else to replace Meredith. But that would possibly have meant a templar war. I don't think the situation is as easy and clear cut as people here believe.

It is not wise to try to force things if you've no means to do so. At best, you get ignored and lose all moral authority you might have had. At worst, you meet with open defiance. Elthina likely thinks along those lines and thus opts for the one option left: Cautious talk behind the scenes.

Modifié par Gadarr, 29 mars 2011 - 01:14 .

[Lord Gremlin]

She got what she deserved.
Bioware has a sick tendency to never let you actually kill those, whom you really want to kill.

[nikeimizhong]

The Angry One wrote...

And yet in the ending, the Templars have rebelled against the Chantry, not just the mages.
That sort of hints that the Chantry's hold over the Templars isn't as stable as you think.

Well you are right, but i guess almost every templar would rebel against the Chantry if they could,
remember? Chantry keeps templars at their side mainly because Chantry has monopoly over lyrium business,
and they keep templars addicted to it, so basically they keep them as zombified brain-washed puppets

[Dean_the_Young]

If the Grand Cleric could have resolved anything at any time, the Grand Cleric would have been the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

The Grand Cleric is not the most powerful person in Kirkwall. That's Meredith, which right from the start should point out how not-secure the Grand Cleric's powerbase is when her own nominal powerbase is more powerful than she. When the nominal subordinate is recognized as more powerful than the nominal leader, the recorses the nominal leader has are already incredibly limited.

The Grand Cleric isn't even the second most powerful person in Kirkwall at the time it matters most. That's the Champion.

Whether the Grand Cleric even manages the top three is far from clear. Many people credit her with far more power and influence than is ever indicated she possesses in Kirkwall.

[BHRamsay]

blauwvis wrote...


She scored a few points for being wise to Sister Petrice - for the first time it seemed that she might be somewhat savvy - but even then it was a case of too little, too late.  Wish I could have gotten her to flee, all the same, as she seemed like a decent, if irritatingly naive woman.  I almost got the impression that she welcomed martyrdom.

I got this impression as well I suspect she was expecting one side or the other to make a move and trigger the very conflict that occured. As long as either side saw death and wr as a viable option there was little point in mediating a resolution ... few years of bloody war might show people what the real cost of the intractable opinions on boths sides

[Camenae]

I can't see why some actually think that Elthina was right to remain neutral. The Templars are a branch of the Chantry. Who do you think is the boss here, the department head or the CEO?

She. Is. Meredith's. Boss.

Respondeat superior is an old doctrine. In what job is your boss not responsible for your actions ON THE JOB, especially if your boss knew about them? If the army and the navy were threatening to nuke each other, how well do you think it would go over if the President or the Secretary of Defense said, NO I MUST REMAIN NEUTRAL.

Plus, she heads a church. A religious organization, neutral? Please. I thought it would be your DUTY as a Christian/Andrastian to show some charity to those who are in need. Not only does she not offer the mages sanctuary in the Chantry or send her initiates over there to peacefully protest the Templars' actions, I don't even see her taking up any offerings for the mages or ANYTHING.

[MKDAWUSS]

I found Elthina to be a wee bit on the arrogant side in Act III when it came to her safety - "I'm a Grand Cleric, no one would dare attack me!"

Try examining the list of people who couldn't care less about the Chantry.

[Gadarr]

Camenae wrote...

I can't see why some actually think that Elthina was right to remain neutral. The Templars are a branch of the Chantry. Who do you think is the boss here, the department head or the CEO?

She. Is. Meredith's. Boss.

Respondeat superior is an old doctrine. In what job is your boss not responsible for your actions ON THE JOB, especially if your boss knew about them? If the army and the navy were threatening to nuke each other, how well do you think it would go over if the President or the Secretary of Defense said, NO I MUST REMAIN NEUTRAL.

Plus, she heads a church. A religious organization, neutral? Please. I thought it would be your DUTY as a Christian/Andrastian to show some charity to those who are in need. Not only does she not offer the mages sanctuary in the Chantry or send her initiates over there to peacefully protest the Templars' actions, I don't even see her taking up any offerings for the mages or ANYTHING.

She didn't really have much choice. Chances are, Meredith would have just told Elthina to bugger off. And then... what? Putting your bets on the majority of templars *not* supporting their direct commander is risky at best. And if you lose that particular bet, you can't even try to establish dialog between the two factions anymore.

Also, your example doesn't really fit. It's more like, say, a king in a constitutional monarchy who is nominally the head of state but lacks any real power trying to issue orders to the armed forces. Or even the elected president. If the army doesn't obey, power is wholly theoretical. It's called military coup. And from what we can see in Kirkwall, the only thing preventing Meredith from openly challenging the Grand Cleric is that she mostly keeps a low profile and works behind the scenes, being the voice of reason even if it's not appreciated.

I don't really see what Elthina could have done, except maybe call on other templars from somewhere else or the seekers. Which is not without risks itself and could well have made things even worse.

[Herr Uhl]

What I don't get about these threads (Viscount and Cleric) is what they were supposed to do. They are both allowed to rule due to the illusion of power, while having very little to back it up.

This is further seen by the fact that templars rebel against the chantry, as do the mages. If she pushed either side too far the result would have been the same. Her only other option was calling an exalted march, which I guess few would have liked.