204 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Gadarr wrote...

She didn't really have much choice. Chances are, Meredith would have just told Elthina to bugger off. And then... what? Putting your bets on the majority of templars *not* supporting their direct commander is risky at best. And if you lose that particular bet, you can't even try to establish dialog between the two factions anymore.

Considering the only person of higher rank than the Grand Cleric is the Divine, I highly doubt Meredith could tell Elthina to simply "bugger off." If that was the case, Meredith never would have tried to stop Orsino from seeing her.

[flakmeister_mcg]

Same old BS, even in the wondrous world of Thedas. Religious institutions making a virtue out of protecting the status quo. As long as their interests are not threatened or they have nothing to gain by interceding, why should they bother?

It seems obvious to me that the Grand Cleric had no intention of mediating the conflict as long as it was obvious the Templars had the Mages solidly under their thumb. Meredith would be the object of hatred and Elthina could play the neutral card and give people the illusion she was an impartial spectactor.

I can't help but think of all the poor civilians who must have taken refuge in the Chantry during the Mage riots, though. Not to mention that the debris that went flying everywhere must have levelled more than a few homes.

[Camenae]

She wasn't trying to establish dialogue between the two factions anyway. She wasn't doing anything. I have a hard time believing that someone who can tell Meredith to go away "like a good girl" is that helpless.

Plus Leliana "the Left Hand of the Divine" was right there in Kirkwall. If that's not a chance for Elthina to go up the chain of command to say, hey btw we need another Knight-Commander here in Kirkwall, I don't know what is. Seems like she just went, eh, I could tell MY boss about this whole situation but naaaaah I'll just wait and see how it plays out. If a regional manager did that, you don't think the CEO would be pissed?

[Danjaru]

I hated her and felt nothing when she died.

She kept using the Maker as a reason why she wouldn¨t act, kept trying to be completely passive when she obviously had power over both Orsino and Meredith.

She's just as guilty as the teacher that stands on the side doing nothing while her students beat eachother up. But to a grander scale.


Then the whole "THe maker isn't responsible for the bad things that happen.. But when good things happen like the Warden defeating the blight, it's all credited to the Maker".. Hypocritical ****..

Modifié par Danjaru, 29 mars 2011 - 02:23 .

[Beerfish]

Herr Uhl wrote...

What I don't get about these threads (Viscount and Cleric) is what they were supposed to do. They are both allowed to rule due to the illusion of power, while having very little to back it up.

This is further seen by the fact that templars rebel against the chantry, as do the mages. If she pushed either side too far the result would have been the same. Her only other option was calling an exalted march, which I guess few would have liked.

Agreed, she essentially was in a no win situation.  She faced the same decision Hawke does at the end.  The Chantry in general has a history of stepping back in conflicts and then stepping forward to buddy up with the winner of the conflict after the fact.  We really don't know what her next move was going to be because Psycho boy stepped in and really started the final confrontation.

[Beerfish]

Camenae wrote...

She wasn't trying to establish dialogue between the two factions anyway. She wasn't doing anything. I have a hard time believing that someone who can tell Meredith to go away "like a good girl" is that helpless.

Plus Leliana "the Left Hand of the Divine" was right there in Kirkwall. If that's not a chance for Elthina to go up the chain of command to say, hey btw we need another Knight-Commander here in Kirkwall, I don't know what is. Seems like she just went, eh, I could tell MY boss about this whole situation but naaaaah I'll just wait and see how it plays out. If a regional manager did that, you don't think the CEO would be pissed?

You are assuming that the present Knight Commander was not doing a good job before she went crazy?  You are saying she should have sided with the mages I take it?  You can't just say she should have punted Meredith and told the templars to stand down with every man and his dog in the city being a blood mage.

[LobselVith8]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Grand Cleric could have resolved anything at any time, the Grand Cleric would have been the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

She is the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Here's a quote from the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region."

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Grand Cleric is not the most powerful person in Kirkwall. That's Meredith, which right from the start should point out how not-secure the Grand Cleric's powerbase is when her own nominal powerbase is more powerful than she. When the nominal subordinate is recognized as more powerful than the nominal leader, the recorses the nominal leader has are already incredibly limited.

But the templars are part of the Chantry. According to the templar codex:

"Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry."

Also, the Chantry is the body responsible for "regulating" lyrium use. In fact, when the Knight-Commander wants to initiate a Rite of Annulment, the authority figure he has to get permission from is the Grand Cleric, as the Rite of Annulment codex attests to:

"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable."

[Lithuasil]

When every mage and their cats turn to bloodmagic out of desperation, that's usually a helpful indicator *someone* isn't doing their job right.

[Beerfish]

People keep saying she had power of all other sides but I have yet to see a credible plan of action for her to take that would not maintain the currently strained status quo, totally alienate the templars at a time when they are most needed. (A blood mage on every block) or totally alienate all mages if not okay the rite of annulment. Anders had all but decided to blow things under just about any circumstance short of the templars being tossed out and the mages be able to do what the heck they wanted.

[Gadarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the only person of higher rank than the Grand Cleric is the Divine, I highly doubt Meredith could tell Elthina to simply "bugger off." If that was the case, Meredith never would have tried to stop Orsino from seeing her.

In my eyes it's more likely that Meredith simply didn't want to be forced to openly challenge Elthinas authority. As long as it's just about protocol, everything is fine by her book. And that's also why she accepts being "sent away like a good girl". Because it doesn't matter for the actual cause she supports.

Which, of course, doesn't hold true if the Grand Cleric starts taking sides in the issue. She doesn't want to challenge the Grand Cleric, but I've really no doubts that she would if she believed it to be necessary.
Who's to stop Meredith? The Divine? She's in Orlais. She may call an Exalted March, but Meredith would probably take the risk. Because she's fanatical about her views, she honestly believes the Circle to be corrupted and she isn't the type of person to embrace reasonable discussion.

[Beerfish]

Lithuasil wrote...

When every mage and their cats turn to bloodmagic out of desperation, that's usually a helpful indicator *someone* isn't doing their job right.

Yup, the head of their mage circle I'd say as the #1 person not doing their job.

You also skewed your post by adding in 'out of desperation'.  Last time I looked ordinary mages are plenty powerful without resorting to demonology. 

[Danjaru]

Beerfish wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

When every mage and their cats turn to bloodmagic out of desperation, that's usually a helpful indicator *someone* isn't doing their job right.

Yup, the head of their mage circle I'd say as the #1 person not doing their job.

You also skewed your post by adding in 'out of desperation'.  Last time I looked ordinary mages are plenty powerful without resorting to demonology. 

Not against Templars.. So they use Blood Magic or contract with Demons cause that's what the Templars fear. They want to use the weapons the Templars fear to fight them.

Many times they turn to Abominations cause they shout for someone to help them, perfect opportunity for demons.

[Camenae]

Beerfish wrote...

You are assuming that the present Knight Commander was not doing a good job before she went crazy?  You are saying she should have sided with the mages I take it?  You can't just say she should have punted Meredith and told the templars to stand down with every man and his dog in the city being a blood mage.

Purely for the sake of what Elthina should have done, it doesn't matter if objectively the Knight-Commander was doing a good job or not, it only matters whether Elthina THOUGHT the Knight-Commander was doing a good job.  Although there's certainly evidence that the Knight-Commander is not doing everything right...but that's another discussion entirely.  when I talk to Elthina, it's CLEAR that she does not at all approve of what Meredith is doing.  So...at the very least, Elthina herself thought that Meredith wasn't doing the job as she should.

A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

And I might get flamed for saying this but, as a Christian I believe in charity.  I'm not saying that Elthina should side with the mages or the templars, but she should have done something.  If plan A is not something in her power, then do plan B or something that IS in her power.   If there were ongoing riots going outside, my church would not shut its doors and do nothing.  The pastor would be allowing those who are being beaten, on EITHER SIDE, to come into the church and be safe.  I know that in this game coming into the church turned out to not be safe, but if there were mages taking sanctuary inside the Chantry, then Janders might have been less inclined to bomb it.

[Gadarr]

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

Modifié par Gadarr, 29 mars 2011 - 02:49 .

[Estelindis]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the only person of higher rank than the Grand Cleric is the Divine, I highly doubt Meredith could tell Elthina to simply "bugger off."

Meredith was crazy - dangerous, unstable - unhinged, if you will.  Even those who owed her their loyalty commented on it.  Any authority Elthina had over her needed to be exercised with care, lest Meredith decide that the Grand Cleric had been corrupted by weak-hearted mercy for mages.

What I don't understand about these threads personally is the need to make Character X 100% right or Character Y 100% wrong.  Personally, I disagree strongly with Anders's decision to blow up the chantry - but even I can see and acknowledge that he was wronged in many ways, which led him into deeper and deeper extremes.  I don't think that justifies his actions, but it explains them.  I think explanation rather than justification should be our aim when it comes to *any* character in this series.  We don't necessarily have to endorse them, but we can try to understand them and see where they were coming from.  We can see what they were trying to do or the people they were trying to be.  I think it's fairly clear that Elthina was trying to be a voice of peace and that she made a decision to stay with her flock in a difficult time in spite of any personal danger she might be in because she knew that not everyone had the power or the resources to leave Kirkwall at the drop of the hat and she wanted to be a shepherd for that flock.  Not everyone would agree with her view of things, but surely more people could agree that those were her intentions (for better or for worse).

[jmbrosendo]

She was between a rock and a hard place. Can anyone say they would have found a better solution that would appease everyone?

[Ryenke]

I'm SO glad to see this thread. I have a hard time understanding the Elthina supporters all over the board. The woman had responsibility for the Chantry (which includes the Templars and their local Knight Commander) and did nothing - even when the Knight Commander interfered to the point the the locals could not appoint a new chancellor. Sometimes she talks pretty - but her actions (and inactions) speak louder.

I also missed that you can have a conversation with Elthina every Act in the Chantry until my second playthrough - and after seeing what she has to say, I was horrified that this woman was "in charge" after talking to her. Bring her Ser Alrick's Tranquil Solution documents and see what she says, talk to her about the happenings in her city and see what she says.

To me, she's a Pontius Pilate character. She washed her hands of the situation knowing full well the consequences of her inaction.

[Camenae]

Gadarr wrote...

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

If your point is that she doesn't have actual authority, then what authority is she risking?  And she says she's not afraid of personal danger.

I'm saying she doesn't have to discharge Meredith, she doesn't have to come out and say, "I support X."  I'm thinking more in terms of offering sanctuary like churches were able to do during the War of the Roses, even to enemies of the state.  That is still remaining neutral because the church is not siding against the state, but against needless deaths.  Remaining neutral doesn't require sitting on your ass.

[BigEvil]

Two quick points I wanted to raise to see if anyone has thoughts on them.

1. People have mentioned Elthina going to Leliana for help with the whole situation. I know Elthina sends you (Sebastian's Faith quest) to prevent ideas of an Exalted March being put into any kind of action, but shouldn't Leliana herself have looked at what was going on and done something? I've kind of got to wonder why someone who used to hang out with The Warden (who got stuff done) pretty much did nothing beyond killing two enemies and a short conversation.

2. Anders might not have blown up the Chantry if mages were inside. I could see that, although I suppose it could also be debated that given the mage girl in his dissent quest he might see mages taking sanctuary there as part of the problem. But what about innocent civilians that didn't have much to do with either side who could have been in the Chantry? It seems like when bad stuff starts happening in Thedas the Chantry is the one place regular people go to try and be safe. From the start of DAO we have refugees in the Lothering Chantry, non-combatants in Redcliffe barricaded in the Chantry, a bunch of bodies outside the Chantry in Denerim during the final battle although these could be passed off as the Chantry sisters, etc, who were there normally (potentially with other people inside), and when Amaranthine is attacked the people flock to the Chantry. Now I don't know for sure how recent the fighting was if it was minutes or hours, but there is burning debris littered about the area you're in during the scenes leading up to Ander's explosion. Maybe it was too recent for people to have fled to the Chantry before it blew up, but it's possible there were at least some people sheltering there already.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I agree. In a lot of ways, the Chantry mirrors the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times. Sure, the King might be lord of his land, but the church was all powerful. No king or queen defied God's chosen (until the Church of England was formed). So, the Grand Cleric would be akin to maybe a Cardinal. Not the Pope himself, but the Pope can't be everywhere, the Cardinals governed the areas, referring to the Pope as necessary.

So, her neutrality when she has that much power in Thedas government, she sure as killed people as if she "pulled the trigger" herself.

As for other innocents in the chantry, that however is the lynch pin in Anders gallows.  There would have been MANY innocents in the Chantry, refugees or not, homless and orphans or just those there praying.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 29 mars 2011 - 03:09 .

[Estelindis]

BigEvil wrote...

Anders might not have blown up the Chantry if mages were inside. I could see that, although I suppose it could also be debated that given the mage girl in his dissent quest he might see mages taking sanctuary there as part of the problem. But what about innocent civilians that didn't have much to do with either side who could have been in the Chantry?

I got the impression that Anders thought neutrality was a lie - that there should be no one who has little to do with either side, that everyone should/must pick a side.  I thought that was what he was forcing them to do.  Seeing as this means annihilating neutrality as such, I don't see him having a huge problem with annihilating neutral people.  Even though he would have helped people like those all the time in his clinic.  :-(  I guess the interaction of Anders and Justice led to such a crescendo of despair in him that he became willing to cause all that death regardless of his healing nature.

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

I agree. In a lot of ways, the Chantry mirrors the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times. Sure, the King might be lord of his land, but the church was all powerful. No king or queen defied God's chosen (until the Church of England was formed).

Absolute statements (taking no account of local personalities or different cultural circumstances over many hundreds of years) certainly make for tidier, less complicated history, but also for false history.  At most times, and in most places, those who were interested in power were those who squabbled over and held it, regardless of their sacred or secular background.  These things are rarely black and white.

Modifié par Estelindis, 29 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[Camenae]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

I agree. In a lot of ways, the Chantry mirrors the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times. Sure, the King might be lord of his land, but the church was all powerful. No king or queen defied God's chosen (until the Church of England was formed). So, the Grand Cleric would be akin to maybe a Cardinal. Not the Pope himself, but the Pope can't be everywhere, the Cardinals governed the areas, referring to the Pope as necessary.

So, her neutrality when she has that much power in Thedas government, she sure as killed people as if she "pulled the trigger" herself.

Agree.  That's just how things WERE back then, separation of church and state philosophy came later.  People would have to be in serious denial to not see that the Chantry is at least in part mirroring the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times.

[Maria Caliban]

"The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

The Viscount and the Cleric are very similar. One seeks to keep the peace by appeasing everyone while the other wants to remain a neutral, uninvolved party.

They both die at the hand of fanatics who might be wrong but are willing to act.

[Gadarr]

Camenae wrote...
If your point is that she doesn't have actual authority, then what authority is she risking?  And she says she's not afraid of personal danger.

I'm saying she doesn't have to discharge Meredith, she doesn't have to come out and say, "I support X."  I'm thinking more in terms of offering sanctuary like churches were able to do during the War of the Roses, even to enemies of the state.  That is still remaining neutral because the church is not siding against the state, but against needless deaths.  Remaining neutral doesn't require sitting on your ass.

She has moral authority. And she's using it by negotiating, and as long as she doesn't force Meredith into a dilemma where disregarding the authority of the Grand Cleric would be the lesser of two evils in her eyes, it's better than nothing.

Elthina believes that peace and stability is more important than the suffering of the Circle mages, even if she is sympathetic to them. Of course, in the end her efforts are in vain and it might have been better to indeed call an Exalted March (it might have prevented the Thedas' equivalent of a world war), but we're always wiser in hindsight. And there's no guarantee things would have worked out that way.

What I'm basically trying to say is this: Yes, maybe she didn't take the right decision. Yes, maybe she should have taken sides. But she wasn't passive, and what she did was actually reasonable (in that she had reasons for what she did - or didn't. Good reasons, too) because the alternatives weren't any more appealing. We also don't know what she would have done in the end because she was blown to pieces.

To flat out call her 'wrong' though doesn't do her justice.

[errant_knight]

Gadarr wrote...

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

Agreed. She risks a schism within the church or pushing the templars into the kind of revolt that the mages take on. And in Kirkwall, the templars have as much power as she does, and an army to back it up, which she doesn't have. Does anyone really think that Meridith would listen if she took a hard stand?