204 réponses à ce sujet

[BigEvil]

Estelindis wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

Anders might not have blown up the Chantry if mages were inside. I could see that, although I suppose it could also be debated that given the mage girl in his dissent quest he might see mages taking sanctuary there as part of the problem. But what about innocent civilians that didn't have much to do with either side who could have been in the Chantry?

I got the impression that Anders thought neutrality was a lie - that there should be no one who has little to do with either side, that everyone should/must pick a side.  I thought that was what he was forcing them to do.  Seeing as this means annihilating neutrality as such, I don't see him having a huge problem with annihilating neutral people.  Even though he would have helped people like those all the time in his clinic.  :-(  I guess the interaction of Anders and Justice led to such a crescendo of despair in him that he became willing to cause all that death regardless of his healing nature.

Interesting, that makes a lot of sense for his characterisation. Although it's also where he loses me in terms of any support for his cause. Anders: "Hey, random orphan child in the street. Templars or Mages, pick a side or DIE!":lol:

[InvaderErl]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...
No king or queen defied God's chosen (until the Church of England was formed).

Just for the sake of accuracy, many parts of Europe, nobles and rulers included, were already turning their back on the Roman Catholic Church prior to the Church of England's formation during the Protestant reformation.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 29 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[Camenae]

I don't think she deserved to die, and certainly not in the way that she did. She was clearly a kind and gentle woman albeit an ineffectual one. However, I just cannot see any person who claims to represent a religion just standing aside when she is aware of the suffering. And again, helping someone does not necessarily mean taking sides. I apologize for bringing up real-world religion, but when Jesus stopped a mob from stoning an adulterous woman, it's not like he's saying "I'm pro-adultery lol!"

[Dasha Dreyson]

I don't feel sorry for Elthina, especially after doing Seb's quests. I think she was more concerned about her own image than the reality of the situation. She says she wants to mediate, but do we really have proof that she does anything of the kind? How many times does the Chantry building get used for subversive activities at night? She also came quick with the whole "Andraste didn't volunteer for the flame." How long had she been contemplating that? Was she wanting to become a martyr to have her reward in this life and the next? That one theme seems stronger in the Kirkwall Chantry than it did in Ferelden.

I know I'm probably reading too much into this, but she found out why the Qunari situation got so bad and she allowed it to be repeated with the mages. She had seen the violence in the street and seen some of her congregation slaughtered. Karl's body was in the Chantry; proof that someone was turning harrowed mages into tranquil. She saw a religious mob turn to senseless violence when the Viscount's son was killed. All those deaths happened right there in her house.

I don't think she was blind to what was going on and I don't think she was stupid.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

errant_knight wrote...

Gadarr wrote...

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

Agreed. She risks a schism within the church or pushing the templars into the kind of revolt that the mages take on. And in Kirkwall, the templars have as much power as she does, and an army to back it up, which she doesn't have. Does anyone really think that Meridith would listen if she took a hard stand?

Then if Meredith wouldn't listen, that's time for an appeal to the Grand Divine.  Go over Meredith's head.  To use the police example other have used... If the Police Commissioner knows that the Captain of a particular precinct is corrupt and the precinct will back him no matter what, you think he'd just sit on his hands not wanting to create an incident? He'd go to someone higher in authority than himself to step in (the Governor maybe? Not sure on police heirarchy above the Commissioner).  Sure, it might be messy, but it's better than letting the corrupt cops run free.

[Addai]

Sabriana wrote...
And that's Cullen. The same Cullen who wanted to kill all mages in the Ferelden circle just because of the off chance that they harbor a demon.

Well, he's not really Cullen anymore- he's Cullen rebooted to be the voice of reason (whatever!).

How exactly is Elthina supposed to settle the crisis?  Even when Hawke picks a side, the war still happens.  Sometimes a situation is too inevitable for anyone to do anything about it.  She's acting prudently because once the Chantry starts appointing rulers and deposing them, she can never go back to being a shepherd of her flock.  The only reason she has any voice at all is because she hasn't been corrupted by trying to play power broker.

[Parrk]

I tend to think that Elthina was quite important to the story in that she staved off warfare for a long time almost single-handedly. She was sandwiched between underlings who tried at every turn to create unrest, and a Divine who seemed nothing short of trigger-happy.

She kept balance for a long time. I can see where you might take issue with her methods. She was a pretty uninventive pacifist who (along with the help of the Viscount, maintained a volatile peace by fighting to maintain the status quo, which was pretty unfair to certain groups depending on where your allegiances lie.

I tend to think that Kirkwall was far better off for having had her, than it would have been without.

Modifié par Parrk, 29 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[Camenae]

Again, taking sides is not the only way she can be doing something. We can assume any number of things, but if we only go by what we see in the game, she has done nothing to try to help anyone when, whether you agree with her religion or not, her kind of religion would dictate that she does charity.

[Mnemnosyne]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, he's not really Cullen anymore- he's Cullen rebooted to be the voice of reason (whatever!).

How exactly is Elthina supposed to settle the crisis?  Even when Hawke picks a side, the war still happens.  Sometimes a situation is too inevitable for anyone to do anything about it.  She's acting prudently because once the Chantry starts appointing rulers and deposing them, she can never go back to being a shepherd of her flock.  The only reason she has any voice at all is because she hasn't been corrupted by trying to play power broker.

I actually thought Cullen was really well written in the whole transition from DAO to DA2.  Especially if the Warden was a mage.  He's known some of the best mages - Irving and the Warden - and some of the worst - Uldred - and was convinced of an extreme viewpoint.  He winds up serving under someone even more extreme, and gets to see some of the worst that the Templars have to offer, which causes him to realize what he was becoming and back off from that path.

As for how Elthina should have settled the crisis, she should never have allowed it to come to that point in the first place.  Meredith had been breaking Chantry rules for years (the most obvious abuse being allowing harrowed mages to be made tranquil).  Having 'strong influence' over the city before the Viscount died was one thing, but openly ruling the city after his death was something Elthina could have disallowed even before it began.  If nothing else, Karl's death in the chantry before the deep roads expedition should have been enough for Elthina to do something about Meredith.

[Gadarr]

Dasha Dreyson wrote...

I don't feel sorry for Elthina, especially after doing Seb's quests. I think she was more concerned about her own image than the reality of the situation. She says she wants to mediate, but do we really have proof that she does anything of the kind? How many times does the Chantry building get used for subversive activities at night? She also came quick with the whole "Andraste didn't volunteer for the flame." How long had she been contemplating that? Was she wanting to become a martyr to have her reward in this life and the next? That one theme seems stronger in the Kirkwall Chantry than it did in Ferelden.

I know I'm probably reading too much into this, but she found out why the Qunari situation got so bad and she allowed it to be repeated with the mages. She had seen the violence in the street and seen some of her congregation slaughtered. Karl's body was in the Chantry; proof that someone was turning harrowed mages into tranquil. She saw a religious mob turn to senseless violence when the Viscount's son was killed. All those deaths happened right there in her house.

I don't think she was blind to what was going on and I don't think she was stupid.

Well... it depends on your point of view, I guess.

In the end, everything seemingly falls apart. Elthinas efforts to uphold peace aren't going to be enough forever - and she knows this. So, she has two options:

- Side with Meredith, annul the Circle so that the downward spiral of repression and despair resulting in even more repression has an end. Then rebuild from scratch. Obviously, choosing this option also means that many innocent mages will die.

- Side with the Circle, wage war against Meredith. Maybe a few mages are going to be saved, but the potential cost would be enormous. People will also die, and most likely even more innocents who get caught up between the two sides.

Note that the first alternative is probably the 'better' of the two, because the number of victims is more or less forseeable.

Faced with this choice, she chooses instead the one alternative she's always been following: Peace. If others want to butcher themselves despite her intervention and negotiation, so be it. But she isn't going to have any part in it, she isn't going to be responsible for the deaths of innocents. This is her choice, not being a martyr. She upholds her beliefs, and I'd say, this is probably the most noble thing she could do in this situation. Even if it makes her appear 'weak' in the eyes of those who actually DO pick a side.

[Addai]

Camenae wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

I agree. In a lot of ways, the Chantry mirrors the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times. Sure, the King might be lord of his land, but the church was all powerful. No king or queen defied God's chosen (until the Church of England was formed). So, the Grand Cleric would be akin to maybe a Cardinal. Not the Pope himself, but the Pope can't be everywhere, the Cardinals governed the areas, referring to the Pope as necessary.

So, her neutrality when she has that much power in Thedas government, she sure as killed people as if she "pulled the trigger" herself.

Agree.  That's just how things WERE back then, separation of church and state philosophy came later.  People would have to be in serious denial to not see that the Chantry is at least in part mirroring the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times.

You could carry it back further to many ancient empires where the divine was thought to work through or be figured in rulers.  It's not accurate to say no one recognized a separation between the divine and the law before the Church of England, either.  That's another idea that is much, much older.  These debates were all present in different forms in the ancient world.

Also, the parallels between the Chantry and medieval Catholicism are all too loose to offer a lot to the discussion IMO.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[BigEvil]

Dasha Dreyson wrote...
Karl's body was in the Chantry; proof that someone was turning harrowed mages into tranquil.

I don't think that's a particularly good example. What Elthina might find are the dead bodies of several Templars and a dead tranquil mage, killed by persons unknown. I doubt she can readily identify every mage in the circle (especially since Kirkwall's circle seems to be much bigger than the Ferelden one). It's a bit of a reach that she'd see his body and jump to the conclusion that he passed his harrowing and was turned tranquil illegally. Sure she could get Orsino to identify Karl and find that out, but she could just as easily get Meredith or one of her subordinates to do the same thing, and they're likely to cover up the part about him being turned tranquil illegally.

[Addai]

Koyasha wrote...
I actually thought Cullen was really well written in the whole transition from DAO to DA2.  Especially if the Warden was a mage.  He's known some of the best mages - Irving and the Warden - and some of the worst - Uldred - and was convinced of an extreme viewpoint.  He winds up serving under someone even more extreme, and gets to see some of the worst that the Templars have to offer, which causes him to realize what he was becoming and back off from that path.

I didn't get any sense from Cullen or his epilogues that he was headed for a moderate future but rather that he was a Meredith prototype.  Meredith being a separate character shoehorned him into the role of stable voice.  Maybe with a little fanservice added.

As for how Elthina should have settled the crisis, she should never have allowed it to come to that point in the first place.  Meredith had been breaking Chantry rules for years (the most obvious abuse being allowing harrowed mages to be made tranquil).  Having 'strong influence' over the city before the Viscount died was one thing, but openly ruling the city after his death was something Elthina could have disallowed even before it began.  If nothing else, Karl's death in the chantry before the deep roads expedition should have been enough for Elthina to do something about Meredith.

And then war might have broken out sooner than it did.  Hindsight and backseat drivers are always smarter than those who are actually in the thick of things.  Look what happened during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.  The revered mothers picked sides and got political, and almost got thrown out on their cans along with the Orlesians, but for the common people's piety.

[Mnemnosyne]

BigEvil wrote...

I don't think that's a particularly good
example. What Elthina might find are the dead bodies of several Templars
and a dead tranquil mage, killed by persons unknown. I doubt she can
readily identify every mage in the circle (especially since Kirkwall's
circle seems to be much bigger than the Ferelden one). It's a bit of a
reach that she'd see his body and jump to the conclusion that he passed
his harrowing and was turned tranquil illegally. Sure she could get
Orsino to identify Karl and find that out, but she could just as easily
get Meredith or one of her subordinates to do the same thing, and
they're likely to cover up the part about him being turned tranquil
illegally.

She didn't seem like a stupid woman, or one who was easily fooled. Why would she not investigate further, press the issue? Beyond which it seemed to be common knowledge that mages were being made tranquil left and right. Given that she doesn't isolate herself and clearly speaks with the people coming to the chantry quite openly, there is no possible way she could not have known that mages were illegally being made tranquil.

Addai67 wrote...

And then war might have broken out sooner
than it did.  Hindsight and backseat drivers are always smarter than
those who are actually in the thick of things.  Look what happened
during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden.  The revered mothers picked
sides and got political, and almost got thrown out on their cans along
with the Orlesians, but for the common people's piety.

So, revered mothers getting political is a bad thing, but the templars, who are also an arm of the Chantry, openly ruling the city, is not?  Sounds like a contradiction to me.  If anything, that's an even stronger argument for preventing Meredith from overstepping her authority.

If it had been an issue between two nobles or something of that nature, I would fully agree that she shouldn't be taking sides.  But it was her own direct subordinate vastly overstepping her authority and doing something that is very likely to create public resentment - taking over the city rather than allowing the nobles to handle establishing the new ruler.

Modifié par Koyasha, 29 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[flakmeister_mcg]

I think some of you are reading noble traits into the Grand Clerics's character that aren't really there. The way she lets her protegé Petrice get cold bloodedly murdered in her very own cathedral should be an indicator of what sort of a person she is.

It's the unattractive combination of arrogance and the sense of certainty you find in the higher echelons of the clergy. She knew exactly what the situation was and was only too pleased that the recent death of the Viscount had in effect created a vacuum that allowed a de facto theocracy be imposed. The Grand Cleric was too arrogant and delusional, however, to grasp that Meredith was a loose cannon by the end and out of her control. Foolishly she played the part of the disinterested observer because she thought her proxy had things under control.

[Estelindis]

Flakmeister, I think you're reading ignoble traits into the Grand Cleric's character. When or where did she ever seem to take pleasure from the events you mention?

[flakmeister_mcg]

Well, we have no indicators of her true intentions aside from words. The consequences are clear, however: the military arm of the Chantry seizing complete power in Kirkwall, even trying to disband the city guard.

[BigEvil]

Koyasha wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

I don't think that's a particularly good
example. What Elthina might find are the dead bodies of several Templars
and a dead tranquil mage, killed by persons unknown. I doubt she can
readily identify every mage in the circle (especially since Kirkwall's
circle seems to be much bigger than the Ferelden one). It's a bit of a
reach that she'd see his body and jump to the conclusion that he passed
his harrowing and was turned tranquil illegally. Sure she could get
Orsino to identify Karl and find that out, but she could just as easily
get Meredith or one of her subordinates to do the same thing, and
they're likely to cover up the part about him being turned tranquil
illegally.

She didn't seem like a stupid woman, or one who was easily fooled. Why would she not investigate further, press the issue? Beyond which it seemed to be common knowledge that mages were being made tranquil left and right. Given that she doesn't isolate herself and clearly speaks with the people coming to the chantry quite openly, there is no possible way she could not have known that mages were illegally being made tranquil.

Why would she investigate further? If she's trying to avoid taking sides and keep the peace as best as possible her options are to accept what Meredith would likely tell her in that situation, let the matter drop, or go to Orsino and find out. Once she goes to Orsino and has proof, she either has to ignore the proof to keep a facade of being neutral or take sides. And common knowledge is pushing it. There are rumours about it, which are only really confirmed for us due to Anders and his quest. We all forgot to include Elthina in the party on that quest. Karl himself (had he not been made tranquil and used as bait) would have had to sneak out of the Gallows to get to the Chantry, how many mages would be going there and telling this to Elthina? Are regular people going to give her proof of the mages being made tranquil illegally? Given she mentions in one piece of dialogue that gossip is a sin, I doubt she'd entertain rumours (no matter if they turn out to be true) without proof. Maybe the player should have had the option to bring such proof to her, to convince her to pick a side, but we didn't.

[dgcatanisiri]

I liked Elthina, I really did. But her neutrality, her desire to not use her Maker-given voice to speak out, to reign in the templars, to do something that would help to genuinely keep the peace, not just keep the pot boiling, makes it so that... I wouldn't call her death justified but it definitely wasn't the death of a complete innocent.

The Chantry is a power, it wields influence. Not using that influence to keep the zealots in check or force what is supposed to be its hand to follow its laws makes her complicit in every event that is done in the Chantry's name, from Petrice's actions to Meredith's abuses of power. I like Elthina, but I find it hard to respect her. She can't see that her neutrality is actually making things worse - if she would just take a stand, these things could be aired and dealt with. Instead, she let things simmer for so long, I really think Anders was right about there being no chance for compromise (not that the bombing was a better alternative, but the sentiment was right...)

[Camenae]

She doesn't have to take sides. I don't think she could have waved a wand and magicked away the whole situation. My gripe with her is that there are other things she could have done. Going only by what one can see in the game, SHE DIDN'T EVEN TRY.

She just gave up and accepted that she had no power to solve the problem. Well...you don't HAVE to solve it. Just help. Do you think we shouldn't donate to help Japan just because we can't stop tsunamis from forming?

[Urazz]

Gadarr wrote...

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

Yeah, but Meredith didn't have the support of the entire 'police force' so to speak. There were several templars like Thrask that went against her and joined the mages in taking her down in Act 3.  Hell, Cullen was starting to have doubts about Meredith in Act 3 as well.  If Elthina attempted to have her removed I doubt Cullen and the other templars would've really try to stop it.  Sure Meredith has some diehard followers that are more loyal to her than their duties but I don't see her having all that many.

Elthina didn't have to support the mages but she could've stripped Meredith of her rank when she decided to rule Kirkwall after the Viscount died on top of the other things that she has done.  She was more than justified in doing so by Act 3.

Elthina would be  a good Grand Cleric I think if it was a chantry without so much power in Kirkwall society but that's not the case.  If anything, it makes her a weak Grand Cleric since the Chantry did have so much power before the end of Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par Urazz, 29 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If the Grand Cleric could have resolved anything at any time, the Grand Cleric would have been the most powerful person in Kirkwall.

She is the most powerful person in Kirkwall. Here's a quote from the Hierarchy of the Chantry codex:

"Beneath the rank of Divine is the grand cleric. Each grand cleric presides over numerous chantries and represents the highest religious authority for their region."

And how does that prove what is the case in Kirkwall, as opposed to what ideally should be?

Lobsel, at multiple times in the game, including outright stated by Varric our narrator, Meredith's status as the most powerful person in Kirkwall is established. Even before the conclusion of Act 2, at which she grabbed even more power.

A codex on the nominal relations between Chantry and Templars doesn't overrule such exceptional circumstances, such as present in Kirkwall, in which the norm isn't applicable.

But the templars are part of the Chantry. According to the templar codex:

"Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry."

Also, the Chantry is the body responsible for "regulating" lyrium use. In fact, when the Knight-Commander wants to initiate a Rite of Annulment, the authority figure he has to get permission from is the Grand Cleric, as the Rite of Annulment codex attests to:

"Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable."

And so what? The Templar codex is how things should be in general. Not how they actually are established to be in the relevant context that matters, ie Kirkwall.

It's hardly historical rarity that nominally subordinate organizations can grow too powerful to control by the people who created them.

[Gadarr]

Camenae wrote...

She doesn't have to take sides. I don't think she could have waved a wand and magicked away the whole situation. My gripe with her is that there are other things she could have done. Going only by what one can see in the game, SHE DIDN'T EVEN TRY.

Going by what we see in the game there was very little first-hand evidence of templars repressing and abusing mages. In fact, we didn't witness the latter at all. Does this mean all those people in the game are lying? That's up to you to believe, I suppose, but seriously, accusing Elthina of doing nothing just because we aren't first-hand eyewitnesses (actually, doesn't she resolve the situation in the beginning of act 3? I'm pretty certain she does, although memory might trick me) is a bit unfair.

It's safe to assume that she in fact does try.

[Estelindis]

flakmeister_mcg wrote...

Well, we have no indicators of her true intentions aside from words. The consequences are clear, however: the military arm of the Chantry seizing complete power in Kirkwall, even trying to disband the city guard.

She didn't order (or seem to want) any of that.  She wasn't responsible for the power vacuum in Kirkwall, and it's not as though she could have appointed a new viscount (or, rather, it's not as if the chantry becoming so political wouldn't have had negative consequences all by itself).  As for Meredith, taking severe action against the Templars might have resulted in an Exalted March against Kirkwall, which she felt would lead to many deaths.  As previously stated, she was stuck between a rock and a hard place.