204 réponses à ce sujet

[Invalidcode]

She claims she got all the good intentions but it doesn't really matter. My Hawke(s) always see her as pathetic & useless, no matter Hawke's personality. She didn't do anything from start to finish and never tried to solve anything, only come up with excuses after excuses to do nothing.

[Camenae]

I just wanted to express my views, and sure I'd be as happy as anybody if someone agreed with me, but I'd never think that they have to.

I don't think Elthina is a bad person, just not good at her job. She did the best she could for a person like her, but that doesn't mean she did the best that could be done, period.

Again that's just my opinion. We disagree. You don't have to attack me over it. Of course I don't have experience being a chantry official, who does in the real world?

[Dean_the_Young]

Who's attacking you?

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I liked her as a character in a grandmotherly sort of way.  I found her sorely lacking as an administrator.  I view Leliana being sent as a messager from the Divine that  Grand Cleric Elthina lost control of the situation, but for her years of service to the Chantry she was to retire to Val Royeaux, giving the Divine the excuse to send somebody else.  Maybe making Leliana the new Grand Cleric.  Which the Warden and King Alistair would have been happy with.  Who were the mages that escaped to Ferelden?  Was one of the mages Wynne?   

Elthina should have turned Mother Petrice over to the Viscount and the city guard or removed her from her post.  Thus avoiding problems with Qunari in the first place.  I agree, she didn't seem one bit surprised at Pertrice's actions.

She should have retired Meredith to Val Royeaux when it was obvious Meredith was out of control.  Elthina apparently still had some control over Meredith.  Meredith stops Orsino in going to the Grand Cleric before the final battle breaks out. 

I think in the end the Grand Cleric sided with the Templars by not leaving.    My question... did Elthina know that Orsino was a blood mage who would know of the other mages research and how to turn into a harvester.?

I think Anders knew that the Grand Cleric would side with the Templars and thus his reason for taking her out.  If she would have removed Meredith and made her retire then maybe Anders wouldn't have blown her up.   Did Anders have inside information from the Warden on what actually went on in Amgarrack? 

What was actually going on with the mages in Starkhaven?  That was never made fully known.  So something else was going on at the Cirlce in Starkhaven and I think the real reason why mages were in revolt.  Was Meredith behind whatever was happening at the Circle in Starkhaven and the reason for Ander's actions. 

I feel that the Grand Cleric caused her own death by in her passitivity.

[LobselVith8]

Considering how many people loved the Grand Cleric and how even the nobles wanted to oust Meredith as Knight-Commander, I don't think simply claiming that she's going to ignore the ruling of a direct superior would help Meredith's cause. The Grand Cleric has influence with the people and a position of higher authority than Meredith in the hierarchy.

Choosing to ignore or challenge her authority would bring Meredith a great deal of trouble, especially when she lacks the political clout to imprison Hawke as an apostate because he's the Champion. I doubt she will have had any more success in removing the mich beloved Grand Cleric Elthina from power. While I don't deny that Meredith can challenge Elthina, I simply don't think it would have met with long term success for a templar to defy a superior in the Chantry hierarchy.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how many people loved the Grand Cleric and how even the nobles wanted to oust Meredith as Knight-Commander, I don't think simply claiming that she's going to ignore the ruling of a direct superior would help Meredith's cause.

It doesn't need to help Meredith politically.

The Grand Cleric has influence with the people and a position of higher authority than Meredith in the hierarchy.

In the Chantry Hierarchy.

In the far more relevant hierarchy that matters in Kirkwall, the Templars who hold military, political, and even civil power, Meredith is functionally on top.

Choosing to ignore or challenge her authority would bring Meredith a great deal of trouble,

And so Meredith has trouble.

Meredith also had trouble actually fighting the Champion. That didn't mean she wasn't willing to do it. The woman isn't lazy, to only do the easy thing.

especially when she lacks the political clout to imprison Hawke as an apostate because he's the Champion.

She does not. Nothing says she can not.

Choosing not to accept a cost does not mean you could not.

I doubt she will have had any more success in removing the mich beloved Grand Cleric Elthina from power.

She had the men willing to arrest the Champion even if Hawke sided with her. If she cries blood magic, and works with like-minded Templars...

Fait accompli. Just like with the last Viscount. Whether it ultimately stands is irrelevant: people act on the prospects of the future, not some 20-20 hindsight. Failure is always possible regardless, and some things are worth fighting the odds for.

While I don't deny that Meredith can challenge Elthina, I simply don't think it would have met with long term success for a templar to defy a superior in the Chantry hierarchy.

It doesn't need to ultimately and actually meet with long term success. All it requires is that Meredith thinks it's worth it for whatever timespan she can achieve. And that comes down to Meredith's evaluations, willingness, and ruthlessness, not Elthina.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 mars 2011 - 06:28 .

[Mnemnosyne]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I think Anders knew that the Grand Cleric would side with the Templars and thus his reason for taking her out.  If she would have removed Meredith and made her retire then maybe Anders wouldn't have blown her up.

At the point in the story where Anders enacts this plan, he doesn't want her to side with the mages OR the templars.  He wants a throwdown in order to spark the mage revolt.  If she sided with the mages, all that would happen is Meredith would be out, but the mages would still be under Templar control and whoever replaced her would continue the same systematic oppression of mages that has been going on for a thousand years.  Only because Meredith was making the situation so intolerable that the mages had to revolt was he able to accomplish his goal, and if Elthina had sided with the mages that wouldn't have happened.

Indeed, I'd say Anders was more afraid that Elthina would side with the mages - at least in replacing Knight-Commander Meredith - than that she would side with the templars.  Because if Meredith was replaced, then most of the cause for revolt among the more passive mages would go away.  They'd find the situation tolerable again.

[LobselVith8]

The templars serve the Chantry, Dean, not the other way around. Meredith has as much power as she does because Elthina seldom challenges her authority. The fact she can order Templars to escort the First Enchanter to his cell illustrates she does have command over templars, as the codex explicitly refences. You seem to think the templars are independent of the Chantry in Kirkwall, and there's nothing to support that theory. Simply because Elthina doesn't stop Meredith doesn't mean she doesn't have jurisdiction over the Order of Templars.

I never said Meredith was physically or mentally incapable of arresting the Champion, but she does lack the political clout to imprison him without repercussions that could cost her the control she wields over Kirkwall since Elthina doesn't challenge her role. She's only willing to try to kill him when he sided with the mages or did all her dirty work, when the Chantry is already destroyed and Elthina dead. The templars hold on the city isn't absolute, after all.

[Huntress]

She wasn't happy with what was happening, thats why she didn't want to get involve, she knew that all that was gonna end in a bad way, for her and everyone also.

She knew of the mother patrice* (*sp) plan and yet she didn't do anything about to stop it. She saw who killed the Mother and she didn't move a finger agaisn't the qunari.

Even if she had asked both sides to spet down, the templars would have asked for annulment, and mages to be free from templars, neither of them was acceptable.

She was neutral, no idea why maybe her age? Maybe she was tired of how extreme both sides were? she probably saw that the only way to end it all was, war, and thats exactly what have happened.

[Addai]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I liked her as a character in a grandmotherly sort of way.  I found her sorely lacking as an administrator.  I view Leliana being sent as a messager from the Divine that  Grand Cleric Elthina lost control of the situation, but for her years of service to the Chantry she was to retire to Val Royeaux, giving the Divine the excuse to send somebody else.  Maybe making Leliana the new Grand Cleric. 

*chokes*  Uh, I think the suggestion for a replacement highlights that even if Elthina stepped down, there's no guarantee you'd get anyone better to fill her shoes.  People seem to think a politician would suit better, but that has disaster written all over it.  Elthina sees her role as that of mother in a more literal sense- there for guidance, not to dictate.

Elthina should have turned Mother Petrice over to the Viscount and the city guard or removed her from her post.  Thus avoiding problems with Qunari in the first place.  I agree, she didn't seem one bit surprised at Pertrice's actions.

That's what she was going to do.  Five minutes later the Qunari took her out.  Unless you're suggesting she knew about Ketojan and the viscount's son?  There's nothing that suggests that.  She didn't looked shocked, but that's just her manner.

[Statulos]

Absence of war does not mean peace, this is what Elthina does not understand. When two sides are becoming more militant, violent and brainless, letting it go is simply not enough.

Elthina had the power to get Orsino and Meredith removed from their positions, she had the power to prevent people from Kirkwall to support fanatics of any side, she had the power to call for reinforcements if the situation got out of hand. She did nothing and paid the price of inaction.

[Dean_the_Young]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The templars serve the Chantry, Dean, not the other way around.

At the end of the game, it's rather clear they don't. The break started somewhere beforehand: attitudes, views, de facto practices.

You cling to what should be, not what is said to actually be.

Meredith has as much power as she does because Elthina seldom challenges her authority. The fact she can order Templars to escort the First Enchanter to his cell illustrates she does have command over templars, as the codex explicitly refences. You seem to think the templars are independent of the Chantry in Kirkwall, and there's nothing to support that theory. Simply because Elthina doesn't stop Meredith doesn't mean she doesn't have jurisdiction over the Order of Templars.

Jurisdiction is like any other authority: it only matters so long as someone is willing to obey. Elthina gives an order that is not in opposition to Meredith: if Meredith were to counter-order, however, the question of who truly wields power would be far more obvious. So long as neither contrasts the other, neither stands to lose.

There is a euphism: I promise to do whatever you ask, so long as you don't ask anything I don't want to do.

It's reflective of the nature of ambiguous control. For a soldier, for example, the Secretary of Defense is high up on the Chain of Command, second only to the Commander in Chief: however, the Secretary of Defense is not the one who gives tactical orders, and in many cases soldiers would (rightly) obey tactical orders from subordinate officers over the protests of the SecDef in a warzone. The nature of divides, whether in the span of control down a chain of command or between military and civilian, challenge the actuality of command and control.

I never said Meredith was physically or mentally incapable of arresting the Champion, but she does lack the political clout to imprison him without repercussions that could cost her the control she wields over Kirkwall since Elthina doesn't challenge her role.

We don't know what sort of repercussions she faced, so we can not assert that doing so would have made her lose control.

She's only willing to try to kill him when he sided with the mages or did all her dirty work, when the Chantry is already destroyed and Elthina dead. The templars hold on the city isn't absolute, after all.

Something that sounds nice, but in effect means nothing. No autocrat, no matter how much power they hold, can avoid political cost-benefits. The standard you hold negates the entire concept of 'absolute control' as it usually stands.

The Meredith wouldn't move against the Champion before doesn't prove that she couldn't,

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Addai67 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I liked her as a character in a grandmotherly sort of way.  I found her sorely lacking as an administrator.  I view Leliana being sent as a messager from the Divine that  Grand Cleric Elthina lost control of the situation, but for her years of service to the Chantry she was to retire to Val Royeaux, giving the Divine the excuse to send somebody else.  Maybe making Leliana the new Grand Cleric. 

*chokes*  Uh, I think the suggestion for a replacement highlights that even if Elthina stepped down, there's no guarantee you'd get anyone better to fill her shoes.  People seem to think a politician would suit better, but that has disaster written all over it.  Elthina sees her role as that of mother in a more literal sense- there for guidance, not to dictate.

Elthina should have turned Mother Petrice over to the Viscount and the city guard or removed her from her post.  Thus avoiding problems with Qunari in the first place.  I agree, she didn't seem one bit surprised at Pertrice's actions.

That's what she was going to do.  Five minutes later the Qunari took her out.  Unless you're suggesting she knew about Ketojan and the viscount's son?  There's nothing that suggests that.  She didn't looked shocked, but that's just her manner.

I think Leliana was sent to give the Grand Cleric the message to flee and then Leliana was to take her place.  I think Leliana would make a fine Grand Cleric especially given her background as a rogue and bard.  The Grand Cleric made it clear she wouldn't step down or flee from her flock as she said.  She choose death instead of retiring to Orlai.  Leliana as it has been revealed is now the right the hand of the Divine in Orlai.  Leliana was sent as more than a messenger. 

As for the Grand Cleric not knowing what was going on in her chantry at night shows she had lost control.  As if the Grand Cleric didn't awaken to dead bodies in her chantry the next  morning.   How many battles did we fight in the Chantry of Kirkwall at night?  The viscount and Senechashal were worried enough to ask for Hawke's help.  

Yes, I believe the Grand Cleric did know, she also knew that Anders was going to do something when she told him his soul was deeply troubled.  In Act I someone was using the Grand Cleric's seal to comment murder so the Grand Cleric knew that something was going on.  She choose not to do anything about it or order her own investigation.  She is in charge of the Meredith, Orsino, and the Chantry of Kirkwall.  She has the end say on everything.  She choose not to act and it resulted in her death.  Why didn't the Grand Cleric meet with Leliana herself at night?    Even Sebastian gets what Leliana is trying to say...that the Grand Cleric was in danger due to her inaction.  Sebastian even tries to get her to pick a side and agrees when the Champion tells what the discussion was about with Leliana.   The Grand Cleric sent Hawke instead so it wouldn't appear she was picking sides.   This is just my opinion on the situation.  As far as My Hawke is concerned she could have averted the whole mess, especially with the Qunari.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 29 mars 2011 - 08:34 .

[Icy Magebane]

The Qunari would have attacked Kirkwall regardless. The Qun is too inflexible, and they weren't leaving without the relic. The more time the Arishok spent in the city, and the more citizens that converted to the Qun, the less likely it was that he'd just leave without trying to take control. Elthina had nothing to do with that, and the Chantry's stance would not have changed the results of the Arishok's continued presence. If anything, Elthina publicly condemning the Qunari would have added heat to the fire...

That said, I do blame her for not leaving the Chantry even after Hawke warns her of Anders' plan, and for not siding with the Templars. She could have simply had Meredith replaced if she thought she was so bad, but .... then Hawke wouldn't have a role to play.

[Virginian]

I don't feel sorry for her because she was told to get out of dodge by the Exile Prince (can't be bothered to remember that pansy's name) and Hawke.

She didn't listen, she got what she asked for.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I don't believe enough people would have joined the Qunari. The history of the Qunari invading Thedas before had to be on everyone's mind, I'd opt for this reason. I do believe the Arishok was in a no win situation and found him to be one of the most interesting characters out of the whole game. I got the impression he wanted to leave the corrupt city as he put it. He couldn't because of the relic. I do believe he was picking a fight to end his life or have the possibility of taking over the city. Who is the real ruler of the Qunari - just the Qun itself and how they live or don't they have a ruler? I still don't understand this. I thought from Sten the Arishok was their ruler.

[Icy Magebane]

@Elvalia: I'm not saying that a lot of people would convert. I'm saying that even a few conversions would draw the Arishok's attention to Kirkwall's "problems" (like free will). He would have attacked anyway, because he couldn't leave and the city was going to irritate him until he decided it needed to be converted to the Qun.

Also, there are 3 Qunari leaders... the Arishok (military), the religious leader, and somebody else... when the Arishok dies, there is a new warrior in line to replace him. The wiki has the details... I don't remember all the specifics of the Qun. To me they're just the enemies of freedom and need to be stopped.

[Wulfram]

Leliana is an agent, not a priest. She's certainly rather too heretical to be a grand cleric.
Also, my Warden would be upset if Leliana swore a vow of celibacy.

[Asdara]

The Grand Cleric should have had all the influence needed to quell the troubles both with the Patrice situation (the Qunari provocation) and the Meredith situation (which is what the Mage/Templar thing boils down to if you take out crazy freedom Anders for a minute, just to simplify). Both these people were her inferiors in a religious order that is THE religious order of Thedas city dwellers - both human and elves - of a wide region. Even Varric, a dwarf, considers what the Chantry does for its dead when he kills his brother. We're talking the dominant culture, a social structure designed to interweave nations in service to the Maker.

Yes, she had the power to have those persons dismissed, but what is that? Does anyone believe that a fanatic like Patrice or Meredith is going to simply accept their chastisement and return to the Divine's sight in shame? Or, would they stay on and work through the undercurrents of the city to accomplish their ultimate goals and prove they were, in fact, righteous in the eyes of the Maker, if not his other disciples? I am going to venture the guess that they would, and it would be far worse for everyone then while they went about their tasks completely unfettered by her attention to their action or act courteous to the Champion for good show - remember, you might be an apostate yourself, surely some of your well protected "friends" are. She actually threatens you with this if you are an mage and pick all the refusal options to her quest in the 3rd Act - and then she snaps back to "nice" because there's still a leash on her, which is the mere presence of the Grand Cleric.

Meanwhile, Orsino is "aware" of the horrific bloodmage that chopped up dear mother, and he too is forced to keep a low profile while there isn't open war. Look what he became! That was being kept in check by Meredith not being able to supersede the Grand Cleric and declare the Rite of Annulment. Meredith, as the Knight Commander, does not have that power - the Knight Commander in Ferelden didn't have it, he had to wait on orders from the Grand Cleric of Denerim.

Elthina choosing not to take a side is an illusion she must maintain to everyone, because that's the only way she can function in this situation, she IS the status quo embodied - killing her removed the avoidance of conflict that "compromise" of which she was the only living agent remaining after the Viscount's death.

Her greatest mistake was not trusting Hawke, or trusting Hawke too much - I can't tell. She cannot be seen to move to either side, and so she cannot even "send" Hawke to do anything. It's left up to us, we become her agency. She says as much when she sends you to Liliana and tells you to use your own arguments and come to your own conclusion, she's already said all she can say. She couldn't direct us, but I wish she had, because the weight of the decision didn't belong to Hawke, and that's what we ended up with - I think its brilliant, but I understand why people say that Act 3 seems forced; it is forced, on everyone in the story, including the player, and that's part of the tragedy of it.

[CRISIS1717]

lol you think her acting like some kind of holy crusader would be better for Kirkwall?

I don't think so.

[steelfire_dragon]

Invalidcode wrote...

She claims she got all the good intentions but it doesn't really matter. My Hawke(s) always see her as pathetic & useless, no matter Hawke's personality. She didn't do anything from start to finish and never tried to solve anything, only come up with excuses after excuses to do nothing.

nobody desrves to be murdered.
Elthina however did ask for it by failing to act and hoping that it would not get out of hand.

it got aout of hand, has merwhathername went bad and the ammount of criminal templars that abused the mages,


I feel more sorry for Anders as each time I killed him for it.


she failed for not acting, she was a blind useless old bat.



that and the years of abuse by both the templars and chantry on the mages namely:
taken from families and no known contact with them.
treated as living weapons( really now, the templars are no different)
various other acts against them...

all of it does is the following
it feels the bottle with: Anger, hatred....

sooner or later, the bottle fills over and trouble brews..

come to think of it, most of the mages problems came from the circles, remember Uldrin, he was no apostate, he was a circle mage... so were the goons that followed him.

Nancy or whatever her name was that followed whats his name in da2( forget his name, but hawke kils him) circle mages all of them.

the mages in Gaider's dragon age:novels...
the villians that came out of that group were all circle mage.

The circle clearly does not work......

and killing them off does not work either..

Andraste was a prostitute

[Wulphe]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Wulphe wrote...

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Did you romance anders? If you did that is the reason why.

Yes, I did romance Anders both playthroughs. The first time I couldn't bring myself to forgive him but I took Merrill's advise and brought him along to help clean up his mess, but sent him away in the end. (I believed killing him would only make him a martyr to the mage cause; leaving him alive ensured he could survive to further blacken his name and eventually someone would bring justice to him). The more I consider the whole situation though, the more I side with him, especially after that talk with Elthina.

My decisions have nothing to do with actually romancing him though. I'm more swayed by either my sister being in the Circle in my first run, or myself being a mage now. To assume that romancing a terrorist automatically cancles out your higher thinking processes and makes you blindly agree with him is a little ridiculous.

Foolsfolly wrote...

I don't know, elearon1. Her job was to keep the Knight-Commander in check. She had a responsibility not only to the Templar but to the mages under their care. Her inaction allowed this whole thing to spiral.

Like someone once said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Kudos to you on that quote!

Modifié par Wulphe, 30 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[PlumPaul93]

Wulphe wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Wulphe wrote...

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Did you romance anders? If you did that is the reason why.

Yes, I did romance Anders both playthroughs. The first time I couldn't bring myself to forgive him but I took Merrill's advise and brought him along to help clean up his mess, but sent him away in the end. (I believed killing him would only make him a martyr to the mage cause; leaving him alive ensured he could survive to further blacken his name and eventually someone would bring justice to him). The more I consider the whole situation though, the more I side with him, especially after that talk with Elthina.

My decisions have nothing to do with actually romancing him though. I'm more swayed by either my sister being in the Circle in my first run, or myself being a mage now. To assume that romancing a terrorist automatically cancles out your higher thinking processes and makes you blindly agree with him is a little ridiculous.

Ooh wow I asked that a while ago , well anyway the reason I ask is it seems people are trying to justify what anders did by hating on the grand cleric because they romanced anders, I know not everyone is doing it because of that but thats what it seems like to me JMO.

Modifié par PlumPaul82393, 30 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Wulphe]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Wulphe wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Wulphe wrote...

I just wanted to throw this out here for discussion and see what other people thought. Not sure if there's a post about this, and if there is I'm sorry.

I'm on Act II of my second playthrough and I realized that last game I never talked directly to Elthina after the Dissent quest. So, I go bug her. One question I can ask her is something like "When are you gonna do something about the Qunari and mages?" Her response is that "The Chantry is like a gentle mother. Sometimes for her children to learn best they must learn themselves." (not exact quote but 90% accurate)

I'm just like... wtf, seriously?! People are killing each other. *Innocent* people are dying, and she has the power to end it simply by raising her voice... I may not be a parent, but if my children were out mudering people and deceptively ochestrating racial riots, I would not take the soft approach with them and hope they figure it out on their own.

Honestly, after that line I feel a lot less upset over her death. She may not have physically killed anyone, but there is certainly blood on her hands.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Did you romance anders? If you did that is the reason why.

Yes, I did romance Anders both playthroughs. The first time I couldn't bring myself to forgive him but I took Merrill's advise and brought him along to help clean up his mess, but sent him away in the end. (I believed killing him would only make him a martyr to the mage cause; leaving him alive ensured he could survive to further blacken his name and eventually someone would bring justice to him). The more I consider the whole situation though, the more I side with him, especially after that talk with Elthina.

My decisions have nothing to do with actually romancing him though. I'm more swayed by either my sister being in the Circle in my first run, or myself being a mage now. To assume that romancing a terrorist automatically cancles out your higher thinking processes and makes you blindly agree with him is a little ridiculous.

Ooh wow I asked that a while ago , well anyway the reason I ask is it seems people are trying to justify what anders did by hating on the grand cleric because they romanced anders, I know not everyone is doing it because of that but thats what it seems like to me JMO.

I know, I would've replied sooner but I had life get in the way, lol.  I don't think I'm trying to justify his actions, and though I don't feel bad for Elthina, I still don't think he did the right thing. If I were him I'd go more for an assassination attempt on Meredith and a b****-slap for Elthina and Orsino. Then again.. that probably would have been something too easy to keep quiet and wouldn't have lead to a world-wide revolution.

The only defense I can really give Anders is that he was obsessed with a (I believe) noble cause that the majority of common folk could simply ignore, and did. After years of peaceful pushing, subversively aiding those he could,  and writting a menifesto attempting to inspite something more than apethy (which didn't even seem to affect his closest friends), he finally snapped, thinking there was no other way to move the people to action than to do something drastic. He made it so the problem could no longer be ignored. I sympathize with him for that, I just wish there was a better way.

*sigh* I guess I'm not even sure if Elthina really deserved death; more like a severe finger-wagging and a demotion to a lower position in the Chantry where her ideals could do some good. I would consider her criminally neglegent, but she is a good person. I'm kinda cold though in that I don't believe being a good person makes you innocent. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". When you have a responsibility to protect the people you lead, you can not sit there and do nothing while they die. Even making a bad choice is better than making no choice. I don't think she could have made everyone happy, but I do think she could have prevented war. (/end Justice rant)

Then again.. (going off on so many tangents) I think the Chantry's power in Thedas, alone, is an evil system. I never think religion should hold power outside of *just* religion. The Chantry has it's dirty fingers dipped into way too many military and political powers. So, I guess I'm also not *as* upset with Anders being his actions undermined Chantry authority as well as the Templars... but this is starting to sound like an argument for another time. Sorry, I'm babbling. I'm going to shut up now. (/Merrill)

[Wulphe]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Gadarr wrote...

Camenae wrote...
A police commissioner discharging an officer when the officer has been convicted of police brutality is not saying "the police force is wrong and it needs to go," it's just basic disciplining.

If, however, the officer in question is backed by the whole (or significant parts anyway) police force, things get more difficult. And as Elthina doesn't have any military power by herself, she can't enforce discharging Meredith. Not without risking an internal Chantry war anyway.

Also, she isn't doing "nothing". It's pretty clear that she tries to mediate. However, trying to talk sense into fanatics isn't really all that promising. Which, of course, she knows perfectly well and therefore cannot support the mages directly if she doesn't want to risk her authority openly challenged and making things even worse.

Agreed. She risks a schism within the church or pushing the templars into the kind of revolt that the mages take on. And in Kirkwall, the templars have as much power as she does, and an army to back it up, which she doesn't have. Does anyone really think that Meridith would listen if she took a hard stand?

Then if Meredith wouldn't listen, that's time for an appeal to the Grand Divine.  Go over Meredith's head.  To use the police example other have used... If the Police Commissioner knows that the Captain of a particular precinct is corrupt and the precinct will back him no matter what, you think he'd just sit on his hands not wanting to create an incident? He'd go to someone higher in authority than himself to step in (the Governor maybe? Not sure on police heirarchy above the Commissioner).  Sure, it might be messy, but it's better than letting the corrupt cops run free.

Ooh, ooh! Interesting point. I'd like to add that, in Meredith's case, not even all of her templars would have backed her up. Pleanty of them thought she was crazy. I think if Meredith had been discharged from her position, even if she revolted, Cullen would have stepped in and the templars would be more likely to follow him.