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Why I do not feel bad for Grand Cleric Elthina [SPOILERS]


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#176
Asdara

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Asdara wrote...

All of which I addressed in the rest of my post I think. 

I don't, but we could argue in circles forever about this. You see her getting a position of weakness as proof of failure. I do not.

Also, being able to do something (even if only in theory in a perfect world) doesn't automatically make it a "good" option.  She has no good options - she's the last support in a house of cards and if she moves a little it is all coming down no matter what she does after that.  She's as stuck as we are and it's comforting to heap blame on her, but realistically her options were bad and worse.

This we agree on. (I think.)


I may have miscommunicated something then, because I don't think her as a failure, but as a successful as the limitations of her situation allow her to be - which isn't much, but not failure.  

Anyway, we do agree on her lack of viable "good" options as being the cause of her actions as they play out I think.  

#177
Dean_the_Young

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Camenae wrote...

Whether the Grand Cleric was right or wrong in what she did about the situation, I can't say without using hindsight. However it's clear she didn't do her job: The knight-commander was SUPPOSED to obey the grand cleric, so if you as grand cleric let it get to the point where the knight-commander for sure doesn't listen to you, then somebody did their job wrong.

Not necessarily. The right choices can lead to the bad consequences, just as bad decisions can lead to good outcomes.

There's far more at work than a simple subordinate-superior relationship at work. The Chantry is by and large a politically uninvolved institution in a city, but in this context Meredith had moved the Templars to political power. That's a boundary there with unclear implications. For another, how involved Grand Clerics normally are in the affairs and conduct of the Templars is far clear: there's a very real political-military divide between the two institutions (religious and military). For a third, Meredith was never outright insubordinate before, or even after she got more power than the Grand Cleric.


Taking the whole mage/templar thing out of the picture, she still didn't do her job: If your underling has been going nuts for years and everyone and their family pets knew about this descent into madness, and you do nothing about it...that's either ratification or gross negligence.

Or a matter of historic happenings beyond the control of any one person.

Meredith's insanity wasn't clear until the very end, and didn't even start until she was already beyond control due to the Qunari uprising granting her even more power. Meredith had always been hard, but that was not insane and that was not too much. It wasn't until after she got the idol that she became intolerable and deserved to be replaced... but that was also the time at which Meredith stepped into the political void of the Viscount's death, and wouldn't.

Before the Viscount's death, Meredith was neither insane, intolerable, or out of control. After the Viscount's death,  Meredith was too strong. Neither is an absolute mark towards negligence or ratification.

#178
Dean_the_Young

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Asdara wrote...

I may have miscommunicated something then, because I don't think her as a failure, but as a successful as the limitations of her situation allow her to be - which isn't much, but not failure.  

Anyway, we do agree on her lack of viable "good" options as being the cause of her actions as they play out I think.  

Ah, I believe we must have miscommunicated indeed. Glad to clear that up.

Yes, she had a bad hand. She might not have been the best player even so, but many of the things working against her were not the sort of thing 'any competent person' would have prevented.

#179
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your notion that Meredith doesn't have to answer to Elthina


Strawman argument.


Because I don't find your theory about Meredith compelling?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seem to be conflating the issue of Elthina's pacifism with some supposed lack of authority.


That is not what is conflating.


It seems to be that way, because I don't see anything to indicate that Knight-Commander Meredith doesn't have to answer to the highest ranking member of the Chantry.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never said Meredith couldn't try or even that she couldn't, I addressed that the reprecussions of such an act could cost her the position of power that she held over Kirkwall in light of Elthina's neutrality. Had it not been an issue, an apostate Hawke would have been imprisoned in the Kirkwall Circle. Since he saved the nobility of Kirkwall from the Arishok by Hawke specifically, it demonstrates that Hawke isn't being forcibly imprisoned (along with the apostates Anders and Merrill) for a reason.


In regards to your differentiation between couldn't versus wouldn't, you are correct and I was mistaken as to your position. This I freely concede.

However, even 'could' is not implied or necessitated. There are a whole host of other reasons that remain to explain why, so asserting one in particular is unsupported. Hawke doesn't need to be a risk of overthrowing Meredith, Hawke only needs to be too much trouble. The nature of trouble is not restricted to Meredith losing her position.


Apostates aren't necessarily risks to Meredith's position as Knight-Commander, but they still get imprisoned in the Gallows. Considering Hawke is a well-known apostate living in the city-state that stands as the seat of the Chantry's power over eastern Thedas, I think it's telling that Hawke isn't imprisoned in the Circle of Magi, and neither are his apostate companions.

#180
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet we have the in-game scene of Orsino going to Elthina to put a stop to Meredith, and Meredith trying to stop him. I don't see why we should adhere to your theory on the matter if we don't have anything conclusive to support it.


Orsino going to Elthina does not prove that Elthina has more power than Meredith.


You're arguing that Elthina doesn't have authority over Meredith, but Orsino clearly thinks otherwise in that scene. If Elthina didn't have such authority, why would Orsino believe she did, especially given his years in Kirkwall and his time as the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

All Meredith's objection to Orsino proves is that she doesn't want him to go to Orsino. It doesn't necessitate that this is because Meredith will lose a conflict with Elthina, only that she doesn't want a conflict with Elthina.

When, however, we have multiple characters, including our narrotor Varric, identifying Meredith as the top power, and nothing disproves that...


Yet the reason behind Orsino's venture to the Chantry is that he clearly believes Elthina does have the power to put a stop to Meredith, and I don't see anything that contradicts that in the storyline. Meredith has power as the Knight-Commander, and she is essentially ruling over Kirkwall, but Elthina is also doing relatively nothing as the Grand Cleric. Elthina does nothing in the name of neutrality. There's a difference between having authority, and not acting on the authority you have.

#181
DamnThoseDisplayNames

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Elthina is (well, was) a woman of high principle and devotion, and ultimately she was right. If Anders did not interfere, perhaps Champion actually could sort things out when debate got out of control. Elthina could intervere after all, like she did before, and investigation with help of Cullen could be conducted about the Idol and Meredith's sword, etc., or maybe she could be put down if rejected Elthina's orders.
Instead, Anders intervened and ruined everything. He is to blame. Maybe in time Elthina could see the necessity to intervene, but she did't have that time.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 30 mars 2011 - 03:23 .


#182
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your notion that Meredith doesn't have to answer to Elthina


Strawman argument.


Because I don't find your theory about Meredith compelling?

No, because that isn't my argument.

Hence why it was called a strawman. I know you've had the concept pointed out to you before.

It seems to be that way, because I don't see anything to indicate that Knight-Commander Meredith doesn't have to answer to the highest ranking member of the Chantry.

De jure, she does. De facto, she doesn't. That's why the game repeatedly establishes her and the Templars, and not the Grand Cleric and the Chantry, as the dominant political force in Kirkwall.

Apostates aren't necessarily risks to Meredith's position as Knight-Commander, but they still get imprisoned in the Gallows. Considering Hawke is a well-known apostate living in the city-state that stands as the seat of the Chantry's power over eastern Thedas, I think it's telling that Hawke isn't imprisoned in the Circle of Magi, and neither are his apostate companions.

Other apostates aren't more trouble than they're worth.

That's all it tells. Nothing more, nothing less.

#183
Ulquiorra_4_Esparda

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PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Cell1e wrote...

I agree with OP. I felt a little sorry for Elthina the first time it happened but on reflection it seems to me that she and the whole 'chantry/church' has totally/mostly ignored the plight of the mages and elves for years and years. I have absolutely no sympathy anymore. She was told to leave, warned and in her arrogance decided she was untouchable. I am also sure she had a good idea of the evilness of Petrice, she seemed not one bit surprised by the Petrices actions...how much more did she suspect was going on in her corrupt organisation that she did nothing about?

She could have saved many lives and she didnt. I think it was 'the makers will' for her to go that way. (Hehe)


I'll ask again did you romance anders? If so I'd say that's the reason why you don't feel sorry for the grand cleric.


I did not, on my Female Hawke I romanced Fenris, and I still didn't feel bad for her. It's not just whether or not she could or couldn't stop the fighting that bugged me the most about her, but the fact that she was the glue keeping the systemic oppression going.

#184
ginzaen

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just because i didn't agree with her methods/ the chantries doesn't mean she deserved to die. What anders done was wrong- even if he was right to a degree it was going to end like that anyhow, so he just made the outcome quicker.

#185
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

De jure, she does. De facto, she doesn't. That's why the game repeatedly establishes her and the Templars, and not the Grand Cleric and the Chantry, as the dominant political force in Kirkwall.


That's precisely because the Grand Cleric takes no action. How can she be a political force if she remains neutral the entire time?

#186
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

You're arguing that Elthina doesn't have authority over Meredith, but Orsino clearly thinks otherwise in that scene. If Elthina didn't have such authority, why would Orsino believe she did, especially given his years in Kirkwall and his time as the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle?

Orsino clearly thinks appealing to Elthina is something that Meredith doesn't want. That does not mean he thinks Meredith will not overcome Elthina, or even that Elthina will agree with him.

When maneuvering from a position of weakness, making the stronger person's life troublesome is the the goal. Outright overthrowing is not inherent.

Orsino's years in Kirkwall, and his delay in appealing to Elthina, is actually an indication against the Grand Cleric having complete power over Meredith, as opposed to Elthina being a potential problem for Meredith. If Elthina could have outright overruled Meredith at any time, Elthina could have been appealed to at any time. As it was, raising the Grand Cleric was not a tool to overrule Meredith and have Meredith, but a threat to impede her and make her position harder to maintain. Meredith doesn't want that either.

Yet the reason behind Orsino's venture to the Chantry is that he clearly believes Elthina does have the power to put a stop to Meredith,

No, it isn't clear he believes Elthina can force Meredith back. All that is clear is that he thinks Meredith doesn't want the trouble.

Which is why going to Elthina comes now, and not years earlier.

and I don't see anything that contradicts that in the storyline. Meredith has power as the Knight-Commander, and she is essentially ruling over Kirkwall, but Elthina is also doing relatively nothing as the Grand Cleric. Elthina does nothing in the name of neutrality. There's a difference between having authority, and not acting on the authority you have.

And there's having the authority but not the means, because the means has run off and is effectively running itself. Which, in the storyline, is Elthina's predicament: the Templars, not the Chantry, are running Kirkwall. The subordinate has gained too much power, and will not submit itself to being restrained.

#187
Derrick1011

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It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes war is necessary.

Innocent people die in war. I, however, would not argue that the grand cleric was innocent. She was allowing the oppression to occur.

#188
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

De jure, she does. De facto, she doesn't. That's why the game repeatedly establishes her and the Templars, and not the Grand Cleric and the Chantry, as the dominant political force in Kirkwall.


That's precisely because the Grand Cleric takes no action. How can she be a political force if she remains neutral the entire time?

No, Lobel, the Templars gained more power in Kirkwall because, due to historic circumstance, they seized it in conditions that the Chantry had no reason to oppose, and every reason to support, until it got to a point that the Templars had, through no unacceptable action, gotten too powerful in Kirkwall. Primarily on account of one Viscount trying to eject the Templars, and in another a Qunari coup. Neither of which the Chantry had any real basis for supporting the opposition to the Templars and their own standing, and every reason to support the Templars gain of power.

The Templars didn't gain too much power to be controlled because the Grand Cleric didn't take any position. The Templars gained too much power because the civil authority in Kirkwall was demolished and the Templars filled the void in the process of carrying out their Chantry-approved duties, without behaving too badly in the interim.

Until Meredith went mad, there was no real grounds for conflict between Templars and Chantry. There was no apparent risk from leaving Meredith (because she was not mad), and no obvious recognition of the Templars being too powerful to control (if they were beyond  control: again, Meredith was not mad yet, and may have abided the Grand Cleric at that time). There was no basis for the Chantry enforcing authority until there was a need, but by the time there was a need (Meredith's madness) the Templars had since gained power (the Qunari intervention).

#189
Dean_the_Young

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Derrick1011 wrote...

It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes war is necessary.

Innocent people die in war. I, however, would not argue that the grand cleric was innocent. She was allowing the oppression to occur.

Innocent people die in war primarily because they're too close to the fighting. Not because people go out of the way to target them. One is a tragedy, the other is a war crime.

#190
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're arguing that Elthina doesn't have authority over Meredith, but Orsino clearly thinks otherwise in that scene. If Elthina didn't have such authority, why would Orsino believe she did, especially given his years in Kirkwall and his time as the First Enchanter of the Kirkwall Circle?

Orsino clearly thinks appealing to Elthina is something that Meredith doesn't want. That does not mean he thinks Meredith will not overcome Elthina, or even that Elthina will agree with him.

When maneuvering from a position of weakness, making the stronger person's life troublesome is the the goal. Outright overthrowing is not inherent.

Orsino's years in Kirkwall, and his delay in appealing to Elthina, is actually an indication against the Grand Cleric having complete power over Meredith, as opposed to Elthina being a potential problem for Meredith. If Elthina could have outright overruled Meredith at any time, Elthina could have been appealed to at any time. As it was, raising the Grand Cleric was not a tool to overrule Meredith and have Meredith, but a threat to impede her and make her position harder to maintain. Meredith doesn't want that either.


If Grand Cleric Elthina has been maintaining neutrality, it doesn't act as a argument against the Grand Cleric having no authority over the Knight-Commander or the Order of Templars, it illustrates that Elthina has been avoiding taking sides in the conflict.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet the reason behind Orsino's venture to the Chantry is that he clearly believes Elthina does have the power to put a stop to Meredith,


No, it isn't clear he believes Elthina can force Meredith back. All that is clear is that he thinks Meredith doesn't want the trouble.

Which is why going to Elthina comes now, and not years earlier.


I don't see why you're assuming that Orsino thinks she doesn't want the trouble when the dialogue indicates that he believes Elthina can actually do something about the matter.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

and I don't see anything that contradicts that in the storyline. Meredith has power as the Knight-Commander, and she is essentially ruling over Kirkwall, but Elthina is also doing relatively nothing as the Grand Cleric. Elthina does nothing in the name of neutrality. There's a difference between having authority, and not acting on the authority you have.


And there's having the authority but not the means, because the means has run off and is effectively running itself. Which, in the storyline, is Elthina's predicament: the Templars, not the Chantry, are running Kirkwall. The subordinate has gained too much power, and will not submit itself to being restrained.


Which is speculation on your part, because Elthina never explicitly or implicitly says anything of the kind.

#191
Derrick1011

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Derrick1011 wrote...

It's an unfortunate fact that sometimes war is necessary.

Innocent people die in war. I, however, would not argue that the grand cleric was innocent. She was allowing the oppression to occur.

Innocent people die in war primarily because they're too close to the fighting. Not because people go out of the way to target them. One is a tragedy, the other is a war crime.


The Chantry is the overseeing government of the Templars, the military wing.  Everything the Templars have done, the Chantry is ultimately responsible for these atrocities.  The destruction of that office of enslavement, rape, murder, and worse is a noble act of war. 

#192
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's precisely because the Grand Cleric takes no action. How can she be a political force if she remains neutral the entire time?


No, Lobel, the Templars gained more power in Kirkwall because, due to historic circumstance, they seized it in conditions that the Chantry had no reason to oppose, and every reason to support, until it got to a point that the Templars had, through no unacceptable action, gotten too powerful in Kirkwall.


No, Dean, your speculation on the issue doesn't compel me to accept your theory. There's nothing to indicate the templars alone have power in Kirkwall or that they'd refuse to accept the chain of command from the Chantry.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Primarily on account of one Viscount trying to eject the Templars, and in another a Qunari coup. Neither of which the Chantry had any real basis for supporting the opposition to the Templars and their own standing, and every reason to support the Templars gain of power.


Neither event has anything to do with the Grand Cleric and her authority as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, either.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Templars didn't gain too much power to be controlled because the Grand Cleric didn't take any position. The Templars gained too much power because the civil authority in Kirkwall was demolished and the Templars filled the void in the process of carrying out their Chantry-approved duties, without behaving too badly in the interim.

Until Meredith went mad, there was no real grounds for conflict between Templars and Chantry. There was no apparent risk from leaving Meredith (because she was not mad), and no obvious recognition of the Templars being too powerful to control (if they were beyond  control: again, Meredith was not mad yet, and may have abided the Grand Cleric at that time). There was no basis for the Chantry enforcing authority until there was a need, but by the time there was a need (Meredith's madness) the Templars had since gained power (the Qunari intervention).


I still don't see anything to support the idea of the templars having more power than the Chantry in Kirkwall in the actual storyline. Most of what you're putting forth is your own speculation on the issue, and I don't see anything in Hawke's seven year story to indicate that there's an imbalance of power between the Chantry and the templars, only that the Grand Cleric is purposefully doing nothing.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 30 mars 2011 - 04:00 .


#193
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

If Grand Cleric Elthina has been maintaining neutrality, it doesn't act as a argument against the Grand Cleric having no authority over the Knight-Commander or the Order of Templars, it illustrates that Elthina has been avoiding taking sides in the conflict.

Since this more or less completely ignores my argument, there's nothing else to say.

I don't see why you're assuming that Orsino thinks she doesn't want the trouble when the dialogue indicates that he believes Elthina can actually do something about the matter.

Orsino's words must be taken into the context the rest of the game provides. Which is: Orsino is attempting to force a conflict in the contradiction between the de jure (the principal that the Templars will faithfully obey the Grand Cleric) and the de fact (the city's recognition of Meredith as the true power in Kirkwall).

Orsino, in desperation, is resorting to a similar argument as you. The fact that Meredith doesn't want it to go forward proves that it's a conflict she does not want: the fact that he has waited so long to envoke it demonstrates that it isn't as clear or solid as to be reliable.


Which is speculation on your part, because Elthina never explicitly or implicitly says anything of the kind.

Elthina does not need to say, or even concede, such a thing for it to be true.

#194
Dean_the_Young

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Derrick1011 wrote...


The Chantry is the overseeing government of the Templars, the military wing.

The Chantry is not a government, to start off with. The Templars are also not an organically integrated organization either: the Templars are functionally an associate organization.

Everything the Templars have done, the Chantry is ultimately responsible for these atrocities.

Fallacy of composition.

  The destruction of that office of enslavement, rape, murder, and worse is a noble act of war. 

Since the Circle system really can't qualify as a recognized system of slavery (the mages and even Tranquil are not regarded as property, are not bought and sold, are not forced to work against their will), and have laws outlawing their own abuse of rape, murder, and worse...

It's erie how many echoes from the good OBL are coming across.

#195
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Dean, your speculation on the issue doesn't compel me to accept your theory. There's nothing to indicate the templars alone have power in Kirkwall or that they'd refuse to accept the chain of command from the Chantry.

Lobsel, how is Varric's own narration now speculation?

Also, strawman bolded. You need to stop that bad habit of yours.

Neither event has anything to do with the Grand Cleric and her authority as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, either.

Both events had everything to do with the Chantry as a whole, and everything to enbling the Templars rise to power.


I still don't see anything to support the idea of the templars having more power than the Chantry in Kirkwall in the actual storyline.

Besides, you know, the story line? The narration? People in Kirkwall?

Most of what you're putting forth is your own speculation on the issue, and I don't see anything in Hawke's seven year story to indicate that there's an imbalance of power between the Chantry and the templars, only that the Grand Cleric is purposefully doing nothing.

So... you never finished the game or something?

#196
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Grand Cleric Elthina has been maintaining neutrality, it doesn't act as a argument against the Grand Cleric having no authority over the Knight-Commander or the Order of Templars, it illustrates that Elthina has been avoiding taking sides in the conflict.


Since this more or less completely ignores my argument, there's nothing else to say.


I don't think the storyline of DA2 contends what you think it does. During the confrontation between the Knight-Commander and the First Enchanter, Orsino says, "Grand Cleric Elthina will put a stop to this." Based on his dialogue, he thinks the Grand Cleric can stop Meredith. The issue is that  Grand Cleric Elthina has been maintaining a stand of neutrality throughout the entire storyline.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see why you're assuming that Orsino thinks she doesn't want the trouble when the dialogue indicates that he believes Elthina can actually do something about the matter.


Orsino's words must be taken into the context the rest of the game provides. Which is: Orsino is attempting to force a conflict in the contradiction between the de jure (the principal that the Templars will faithfully obey the Grand Cleric) and the de fact (the city's recognition of Meredith as the true power in Kirkwall).


When templars obey Elthina's command to escort Orsino to the Gallows, the templars don't wait for confirmation from Meredith - they obey. You seem to be arguing that the storyline is saying something that isn't explicitly said. You're welcome to your interpretation, but I don't think that's what the writers intended.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Orsino, in desperation, is resorting to a similar argument as you. The fact that Meredith doesn't want it to go forward proves that it's a conflict she does not want: the fact that he has waited so long to envoke it demonstrates that it isn't as clear or solid as to be reliable.


He didn't wait to invoke it - she did something he contested, and he decided to go to the Grand Cleric.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is speculation on your part, because Elthina never explicitly or implicitly says anything of the kind.


Elthina does not need to say, or even concede, such a thing for it to be true.


And no one else says or implies such a thing, either. Meredith has power and authority, but Elthina isn't taking sides in the arguments between Meredith and Orsino on purpose, so the idea she has no power to overrule Meredith rings false to me.

#197
Asdara

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 I'm going to break one of my own forum posting rules and repeat myself in full below.  The summary is: Elthina's function was restricted by circumstances beyond anyone's control and she was forced into a position of neutrality as a point of practical application of what power remained in her status to maintain a balance that would have spun out of control far more quickly and violently if she hadn't taken the course of action she does, namely remaining neutral and deferring to an unfettered outside party (Hawke) due to lack of other options.

Repeated portion with emphasis added:

The Grand Cleric should have had all the influence needed to quell the troubles both with the Patrice situation (the Qunari provocation) and the Meredith situation (which is what the Mage/Templar thing boils down to if you take out crazy freedom Anders for a minute, just to simplify). Both these people were her inferiors in a religious order that is THE religious order of Thedas city dwellers - both human and elves - of a wide region. Even Varric, a dwarf, considers what the Chantry does for its dead when he kills his brother. We're talking the dominant culture, a social structure designed to interweave nations in service to the Maker. 

Yes, she had the power to have those persons dismissed, but what is that? Does anyone believe that a fanatic like Patrice or Meredith is going to simply accept their chastisement and return to the Divine's sight in shame? Or, would they stay on and work through the undercurrents of the city to accomplish their ultimate goals and prove they were, in fact, righteous in the eyes of the Maker, if not his other disciples? I am going to venture the guess that they would, and it would be far worse for everyone then while they went about their tasks completely unfettered by her attention to their action or act courteous to the Champion for good show - remember, you might be an apostate yourself, surely some of your well protected "friends" are. She (Meredith) actually threatens you with this if you are an mage and pick all the refusal options to her quest in the 3rd Act - and then she snaps back to "nice" because there's still a leash on her, which is the mere presence of the Grand Cleric.
Meanwhile, Orsino is "aware" of the horrific bloodmage that chopped up dear mother, and he too is forced to keep a low profile while there isn't open war. Look what he became! That was being kept in check by Meredith not being able to supersede the Grand Cleric and declare the Rite of Annulment. Meredith, as the Knight Commander, does not have that power - the Knight Commander in Ferelden didn't have it, he had to wait on orders from the Grand Cleric of Denerim. 

Elthina choosing not to take a side is an illusion she must maintain to everyone, because that's the only way she can function in this situation, she IS the status quo embodied - killing her removed the avoidance of conflict that "compromise" of which she was the only living agent remaining after the Viscount's death. 


Her greatest mistake was not trusting Hawke, or trusting Hawke too much - I can't tell. She cannot be seen to move to either side, and so she cannot even "send" Hawke to do anything. It's left up to us, we become her agency. She says as much when she sends you to Liliana and tells you to use your own arguments and come to your own conclusion, she's already said all she can say. She couldn't direct us, but I wish she had, because the weight of the decision didn't belong to Hawke, and that's what we ended up with - I think its brilliant, but I understand why people say that Act 3 seems forced; it is forced, on everyone in the story, including the player, and that's part of the tragedy of it.
_____

And that's I guess my whole stance on the issue, for better or worse, the situation doesn't allow anyone to work to their greatest possible potential because it has become SO unusual and complicated by the issues that need to be balanced but refused to remain in stasis.


Modifié par Asdara, 30 mars 2011 - 04:20 .


#198
LobselVith8

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Dean, your speculation on the issue doesn't compel me to accept your theory. There's nothing to indicate the templars alone have power in Kirkwall or that they'd refuse to accept the chain of command from the Chantry.


Lobsel, how is Varric's own narration now speculation?


Since when does Varric ever say Grand Cleric Elthina can't overrule Meredith? Are you fan fic'ing your ideas as canon now?

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Neither event has anything to do with the Grand Cleric and her authority as the highest ranking member of the Chantry in Kirkwall, either.


Both events had everything to do with the Chantry as a whole, and everything to enbling the Templars rise to power.


No, it doesn't. Hawke's defeat of the Qunari leads to him being Champion, and Anders attack on the Chantry leads to the mage insurrection. We have no idea what the status is on the templars at the conclusion of the storyline.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I still don't see anything to support the idea of the templars having more power than the Chantry in Kirkwall in the actual storyline.


Besides, you know, the story line? The narration? People in Kirkwall?


Conjecture and speculation on your part =/= the storyline of DA2.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Most of what you're putting forth is your own speculation on the issue, and I don't see anything in Hawke's seven year story to indicate that there's an imbalance of power between the Chantry and the templars, only that the Grand Cleric is purposefully doing nothing.


So... you never finished the game or something?


How does the fact that templars have stopped taking orders after the Circle of Magi rebelled from Chantry control support your argument?

#199
Dean_the_Young

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you fan fic'ing your ideas as canon now?


You know what? I quit.

If you can't even address my arguments seriously, let alone maintain the integrity your own, there no point. I won't convince you, which I never really considered likely, but more importantly it's not even fun to argue against you.

#200
88mphSlayer

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the chantry is the fallability of always being neutral on everything

which is why Anders blew them up, end all pretenses and everything