93 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

kohlmannj wrote...

The basis for my conjecture on the soundtrack debacle is what Jack Wall has publicly stated on this forum

Ha! He said "complicated"... Must be a conspiracy!!!

But let's drop it really.

kohlmannj wrote...

Also, for the record, the audio suggestion of yours makes plenty of sense, good one.

This is not a ME2-only problem. I met it across many games, that featured in-world music, "heard by the player character". Best guess is that it's simply more convenient for the devs to keep it that way, and back in the day, when the sound effects and music files were in different formats, that was pretty much unavoidable. But these days I don't see why this problem cannot be easily solved. Maybe have a separate scroll bar for it, if it still can't be allowed to mix with the sound effects?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 avril 2011 - 09:36 .

[Rob Blake]

Lets try to keep things civil shall we? Flame wars are what keeps devs like me from responding... and I want to interact with you guys

It's a fair point about the music sliders, however, it's a certification requirement to have the music slider control the music and sound slider control the sound. What could be a possibility is we make a fourth slider for 'in world music'. I did suggest this during development but I think we opted against it as it seemed unnecessary and the demand didn't seem to be there. If people would appreciate the ability to turn score off/down but keep nightclub/bar music up then we could do this... I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

[Kane-Corr]

Rob Blake wrote...

Lets try to keep things civil shall we? Flame wars are what keeps devs like me from responding... and I want to interact with you guys

It's a fair point about the music sliders, however, it's a certification requirement to have the music slider control the music and sound slider control the sound. What could be a possibility is we make a fourth slider for 'in world music'. I did suggest this during development but I think we opted against it as it seemed unnecessary and the demand didn't seem to be there. If people would appreciate the ability to turn score off/down but keep nightclub/bar music up then we could do this... I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

Cool. Basically for me, with a game series like Mass Effect, I ALWAYS keep the music on at all times. SOOO...I pretty much like the way the system is now. I guess a slider for the nightclub music, and one for the game's score would be cool too though. Either way...I will totally be listening to the Mass Effect Music and NOT any of my music while I play the game.

Modifié par Kane-Corr, 02 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Sable Phoenix]

I hope that this means we get the ambient Normandy theme back while onboard the ship. This was a huge part of why the SR2 feels so cold and sterile compared to the SR1 (the lighting being to bright and harsh is the other part of it, but that's not something the sound designers have control over). Putting that ambient music back in would go a long, long way towards making it feel more welcoming.  It still won't be as good as the SR1, but it'll be better than it is now.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[Dominus]

I never really took issue with the club being turned off by the music slider, but I can certainly see why there might be demand for it. Wouldn't be too difficult to add in - it would give more options for players, just in case.

I hope that this means we get the ambient Normandy theme back while onboard the ship. This was a huge part of why the SR2 feels so cold and sterile compared to the SR1

Very good point, I hadn't even thought of that until now... now I'm starting to miss that again. 

And yeah, please no flame wars, don't spoil a good thing :-(

Modifié par DominusVita, 02 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Rob Blake wrote...

I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

I don't think I ever heard people playing their own music over the one in the game (unless we are talking about games such as WOW).

But anyway. I hope you will add slightly  more background music in ME3, the lack of it in ME2 made several areas feel more lonely or dull than they should.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 02 avril 2011 - 09:43 .

[Rob Blake]

On the subject of VO and other sounds pausing during the power/weapon/mission-computer screen, the problem from an audio perspective is that time has effectively stopped. Many of our sounds are synced to visuals (VO to lipsync, sounds to animations, etc) and if we continue to play them over these sceens then when you get back to the action we'd get all sorts of sync and gameplay flow bugs... some things would just completely break. Basically, the concept of 'time' in the gameplay world has to accurately impact the audio or bad things happen.

Does that answer your point or have I misunderstood?

[kohlmannj]

You've got at least two of the three listening scenarios correct, I think. The third possibility is that the player doesn't want any soundtrack music so that the experience is as close to what the "real" Shepard would be hearing at any given moment (unless there are neural implants in 2185 that score a soundtrack for you…in that case, sign me up!).

Thank you again Rob, this has been a really nice, constructive thread to participate in.

Rob Blake wrote...

Lets try to keep things civil shall we? Flame wars are what keeps devs like me from responding... and I want to interact with you guys

It's a fair point about the music sliders, however, it's a certification requirement to have the music slider control the music and sound slider control the sound. What could be a possibility is we make a fourth slider for 'in world music'. I did suggest this during development but I think we opted against it as it seemed unnecessary and the demand didn't seem to be there. If people would appreciate the ability to turn score off/down but keep nightclub/bar music up then we could do this... I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

[Kane-Corr]

Oh, actually...the Normandy! I was replaying Mass 1 a while ago, just to hear the difference in the atmoshpere in regards to the music. Basically, I understand the changes that were made and fully accept them....BUT....

Would it be at all possible if maybe, perchance, some light type of music could be playing on The Normandy? This is something that I feel would have made Mass 2 THAT much better in atmosphere alone. I mean, when I think of Mass Effect 1...I think of the Normandy music....alot!

Thanks for reading this!

[Dominus]

 if we continue to play them over these sceens then when you get back to the action we'd get all sorts of sync and gameplay flow bugs... some things would just completely break. 

That makes sense - as nice as it would be to have it in, there's way too many technical issues to handle it. Oh well :-/

some light type of music could be playing on The Normandy?

As long as you don't mean elevator music! *rimshot* 

And yes, thanks for giving us some insight into the sonic side of ME.

Modifié par DominusVita, 02 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Rob Blake wrote...

Lets try to keep things civil shall we? Flame wars are what keeps devs like me from responding... and I want to interact with you guys

It's a fair point about the music sliders, however, it's a certification requirement to have the music slider control the music and sound slider control the sound. What could be a possibility is we make a fourth slider for 'in world music'. I did suggest this during development but I think we opted against it as it seemed unnecessary and the demand didn't seem to be there. If people would appreciate the ability to turn score off/down but keep nightclub/bar music up then we could do this... I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

Certification requirement?  Certification by whom and what gives them the right to dictate this anyway?

I think this is definitely something we need.  There's no reason that the in-game "music" that the characters would hear shouldn't be treated as a sound effect, separate and apart from the score that only the players can hear.  One is for ambience, the other is for evoking a specific cinematic mood or emotional response.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 02 avril 2011 - 09:52 .

[Kane-Corr]

(Regarding the music on the Normandy)

Also too, I feel that since this is the epic conclusion to Shepard's Story....a nice little "remix" of that Normandy Theme would help bring the experience full circle. It would kind of add that whole...reflective and reminiscent feeling into the game...which I know would add immensely to the whole atmosphere to the game. This way...there could be that whole driving force of our experiences from the past, and  the impending doom of the Reaper onslaught that we have to face.

[Dominus]

It's a fair point, sable - both are technically music, but for 2 distinctly different purposes.

[Hathur]

I was wondering if there will be any way around the issue of Adrenaline Rush & VO in ME3 (assuming the skill returns or something similar).

I had to completely stop using Adrenaline rush as a skill because the slow-mo effect makes voice over audio a complete garbled mess.. somestimesI would have a squad member comment on something during battle or EDI would send me a situation report etc.. but I completely missed it because of the slow-mo effect of Adrenaline Rush (or even sprinting as a soldier since it causes the slow-mo audio too).

Obviously this can be tricky to work around since time is being slowed down in game and you have to keep things synchronized etc... but is there any chance that voice over work like that can be fixed for ME3? I can't count the vast number of times that playing as a soldier ruined the immersion because of the cursed slow-mo effects (it was horrendous in LoTSB... when Liara & Shep are on the ship fighting and the two begin a discussion on the old days during the fire fight.... nearly 1/2 of that was spent for me as a garbled mumbled mess due to adrenaline rush and sprinting to cover).

[kohlmannj]

Rob Blake wrote...

On the subject of VO and other sounds pausing during the power/weapon/mission-computer screen, the problem from an audio perspective is that time has effectively stopped. Many of our sounds are synced to visuals (VO to lipsync, sounds to animations, etc) and if we continue to play them over these sceens then when you get back to the action we'd get all sorts of sync and gameplay flow bugs... some things would just completely break. Basically, the concept of 'time' in the gameplay world has to accurately impact the audio or bad things happen.

Does that answer your point or have I misunderstood?

I think Foxhound2020 was referring to a scenario like this—please correct me if I'm wrong:
1. Engage enemies in combat.
2. Enter a situation that causes one of your squad members to speak dialog, i.e. "Deploying Overload", "One Less", etc.
3. Activate the Combat HUD/Power Wheel (i.e. hold Shift) in the middle of the character speaking their lines.
4. Exit the Combat HUD/Power Wheel.

Expected Results: Character finishes their line.
Possible Actual Results: Character is now mute, having been cut off by the player pausing the game.

I'll see if I can reproduce this soon (may not be today).

Foxhound2020 wrote...
Audio conversations in the middle of battle are cut off when you display the HUD as well. This agitated me to no end in Mass effect 2. I don't think that happen in ME1. Conversations should continue even after opening and leaving the HUD or pausing the game.

[Almostfaceman]

Rob Blake wrote...

Lets try to keep things civil shall we? Flame wars are what keeps devs like me from responding... and I want to interact with you guys

It's a fair point about the music sliders, however, it's a certification requirement to have the music slider control the music and sound slider control the sound. What could be a possibility is we make a fourth slider for 'in world music'. I did suggest this during development but I think we opted against it as it seemed unnecessary and the demand didn't seem to be there. If people would appreciate the ability to turn score off/down but keep nightclub/bar music up then we could do this... I just feel that if you want to listen to your own music while playing then hearing nightclub music on top of your music would sound messy anyway; usually people want to listen to their own music or the game music.

What are people's thoughts?

Thanks!

I actually do think this extra feature to turn down the "score"  vs. night club music is a good idea, so here's my vote for that.

[kohlmannj]

Could this be resolved if the game stretched the dialog audio temporally but didn't adjust its pitch [as much]? That way, "speaking" becomes "ssppeeaakkiinngg" instead of "mmppooookkoonngg", to exaggerate.

Hathur wrote...

I was wondering if there will be any way around the issue of Adrenaline Rush & VO in ME3 (assuming the skill returns or something similar).

I had to completely stop using Adrenaline rush as a skill because the slow-mo effect makes voice over audio a complete garbled mess.. somestimesI would have a squad member comment on something during battle or EDI would send me a situation report etc.. but I completely missed it because of the slow-mo effect of Adrenaline Rush (or even sprinting as a soldier since it causes the slow-mo audio too).

Obviously this can be tricky to work around since time is being slowed down in game and you have to keep things synchronized etc... but is there any chance that voice over work like that can be fixed for ME3? I can't count the vast number of times that playing as a soldier ruined the immersion because of the cursed slow-mo effects (it was horrendous in LoTSB... when Liara & Shep are on the ship fighting and the two begin a discussion on the old days during the fire fight.... nearly 1/2 of that was spent for me as a garbled mumbled mess due to adrenaline rush and sprinting to cover).

Modifié par kohlmannj, 02 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[Rob Blake]

That's actually a valid point about the VO pitching. Like I said, we have this problem about audio/visual sync and currently time is tied directly to audio time/pitch so it will cause issues. However, I'll try uncoupling the effect and having it pitch the audio less to see how far I can push it before it starts breaking stuff. Also, I can move it on to separate audio outputs and have different pitch curves for sound and VO, but that will take more work and will cost extra memory and CPU... but if it's getting in the way of critical VO that's super important.

I'll have a fiddle with it when I get back from holiday. Yes, I'm on a well deserved holiday

Modifié par Rob Blake, 02 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Kane-Corr]

Hathur wrote...

I was wondering if there will be any way around the issue of Adrenaline Rush & VO in ME3 (assuming the skill returns or something similar).

I had to completely stop using Adrenaline rush as a skill because the slow-mo effect makes voice over audio a complete garbled mess.. somestimesI would have a squad member comment on something during battle or EDI would send me a situation report etc.. but I completely missed it because of the slow-mo effect of Adrenaline Rush (or even sprinting as a soldier since it causes the slow-mo audio too).

Obviously this can be tricky to work around since time is being slowed down in game and you have to keep things synchronized etc... but is there any chance that voice over work like that can be fixed for ME3? I can't count the vast number of times that playing as a soldier ruined the immersion because of the cursed slow-mo effects (it was horrendous in LoTSB... when Liara & Shep are on the ship fighting and the two begin a discussion on the old days during the fire fight.... nearly 1/2 of that was spent for me as a garbled mumbled mess due to adrenaline rush and sprinting to cover).

I understand where your coming from...BUT, it does make sense to let this feature to continue as it was in ME2. By changing around the voices...you'd be changing the whole aspect of the Adrenaline Rush in general. It would be ideal, but it also would make things very different.

[Foxhound2020]

Rob Blake wrote...

On the subject of VO and other sounds pausing during the power/weapon/mission-computer screen, the problem from an audio perspective is that time has effectively stopped. Many of our sounds are synced to visuals (VO to lipsync, sounds to animations, etc) and if we continue to play them over these sceens then when you get back to the action we'd get all sorts of sync and gameplay flow bugs... some things would just completely break. Basically, the concept of 'time' in the gameplay world has to accurately impact the audio or bad things happen.

Does that answer your point or have I misunderstood?

Situations where time has stopped but yet time is not erased in audio. That is effectively what happens in ME2 audio when entering and leaving the hud. I understand that audio conversations that take place in the middle of combat stop when entering the hud and cannot/should not continue inside the hud, but time is also erased when entering the hud.

Audio becomes completely removed from a combat scene that is vital and helps the player enjoy the scene. I dont think ME1 had this problem. Then again, ME1 didnt have as much in combat dialog, so I can't think of an exact example.

Is there someway you can prevent from time being eased in audio? It became increasingly disheartening to have a voice audio que become completely erased because I entered the hud. For example, the mission when you retrieve grunt and the commander of the mercenaries is yelling over a loud speaker: if you enter the hud during the sounds scene they are removed completely and don't continue where they left off after leaving the hud.

Modifié par Foxhound2020, 02 avril 2011 - 10:09 .

[AlbertoAquilani]

Hi Rob,

I like the idea of a music slider myself. I'm usually one to keep it on, since audio and soundtrack immerse me more than anything, but for those who aren't willing it'd be a great option.

Just a question... probably going way off-topic here, if you can't answer it then by all means you don't need to, just thought I'd throw in one of my concerns. Specifically about the soundtrack...

Obviously it's very difficult to appeal as wide as audience as possible and to get that balance is very hard. But one of my concerns is the possibility that synths and electronic elements will be dropped in favour of a more orchestral soundtrack. That's one of the reasons I love Arrival's OST and Jack Wall's work so much (especially ME 1), because it appealed to me much more than say LOTSB or Overlord (they're still good mind). Will the soundtrack retain those elements?

[Almostfaceman]

Rob Blake wrote...

That's actually a valid point about the VO pitching. Like I said, we have this problem about audio/visual sync and currently time is tied directly to audio time/pitch so it will cause issues. However, I'll try uncoupling the effect and having it pitch the audio less to see how far I can push it before it starts breaking stuff. Also, I can move it on to separate audio outputs and have different pitch curves for sound and VO, but that will take more work and will cost extra memory and CPU... but if it's getting in the way of critical VO that's super important.

I'll have a fiddle with it when I get back from holiday. Yes, I'm on a well deserved holiday

Enjoy your holiday!  Thanks for chatting with us a bit while you're on holiday, we appreciate it very much.

[Dominus]

Also, I can move it on to separate audio outputs and have different pitch curves for sound and VO, but that will take more work and will cost extra memory and CPU... but if it's getting in the way of critical VO that's super important.

I'd say it really depends on how "garbled" the VO is coming out - it may be worth the memory and CPU usage if the audio is unintelligible. I never had any issue with that in adrenaline rush to be honest - It doesn't hurt to have subtitles either if you're really interested in the lines mid battle

Modifié par DominusVita, 02 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Kane-Corr]

DominusVita wrote...

Also, I can move it on to separate audio outputs and have different pitch curves for sound and VO, but that will take more work and will cost extra memory and CPU... but if it's getting in the way of critical VO that's super important.

I'd say it really depends on how "garbled" the VO is coming out - it may be worth the memory and CPU usage if the audio is unintelligible. I never had any issue with that in adrenaline rush to be honest - It doesn't hurt to have subtitles either if you're really interested in the talkin

I  honestly thought it was fine. I never had any issue with the adrenaline rush either. It was a totally understandable temporary atmospheric change.

[mattahraw]

Rob Blake wrote...

This thread is turning into quite the 'love-in' isn't it Thanks again for all the kind comments and feedback, you guys are great!

Regarding the ambient music in ME2, I was a little concerned about oversaturating the player with non-stop music throughout the entire game, so we decided to take 'score' music out of the hubs and instead focus on the main misions... which is where the narrative is really developing. Of course, you guys are right and this meant that we lost a little of the 'feel' that the ME1 hub music brought... I think it's all about finding balance between capturing the right atmosphere and the posibility of desensitising the audience from non-stop music.

The music plan for ME3 is going to be a lot more carefully planned out, Casey and I have spent a lot of time wrapping it into the main story and devising a musical narrative... it's going to be pretty amazing and much more cinematic, VERY exciting stuff! But that's all I can say about the music at this stage, sorry! As has been said, I'm having to bite my tongue for now!

Thanks everyone and enjoy your weekends!

R

Rob,

Perhaps you could do the same thing as the hub music in Jade Empire. Rather than constantly looping, it would play once, fade out, and then gently come back after a while. That way it's not looping endlessly but we still get some atmosphere.

Some of the most memorable songs from ME1 were the normandy song and the presidium music. It'd be a shame to cut it completely.

Edit: Just remembered that Red Dead Redemption is also an excellent example of this technique working amazingly

Modifié par mattahraw, 02 avril 2011 - 10:24 .