151 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

Wait a second...

"the plot was not implemented correctly..."
"plot hole..."
"lackluster writing..."

When did this forum turn into IMDB?

I guess we'll get some shippers and "Anders Can Pet Our Kitten Anytime #165" threads soon. Goddamnit.

[Nozybidaj]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

David is the Lead Writer...NOT the Lead designer.

If anyone is to blame, that would be Lidlaw and whoever decided it should be finished in such a shot amount of time.

David killed my dog in 1995.  He is also responsible for the War of 1812 and the coming 2012 apocalypse.  Coincidence?  I think not.

[Slayer299]

rolson00 wrote...
erm thats what we're discussing here peolple blaming the writers for all the flaws

if there is a problem with the story who else would you blame, the janitor? The story idea was interesting enough, but it had more than a few flaws in its execution.

1. - No sense of direction or purpose - No bigbad or overarching evil is necessary, but a goal does help focus the player on something beyond being the 'bad ass of Kirkwall'.
2 - NPC's overall were not that interesting. Over a 7 yr period did you really learn much of anything about the NPC's? Does Isabella have a favorite color, ship, a dagger she sleeps with and has named "Fred"...something?? We do learn something of her history and her intimacy issues, but not much more than that.
3 - A moral ambiguous situation setup in Act's II and III and culminating in the end of the game. I liked the idea of it, a lot, but it winded up being to bi-polar. In Act II you had Side A coming off as reasonable and nice and side B as sadistic and cruel and then in Act III you have the reverse with Side A being psychotic fruitloops who go nuts at the drop of a hat and/or betray you after helping them in Act II and Side B winds up being reasonable. It could not make up its mind what direction it wanted to push you in, when it shouldn't have tried pushing you in *any* direction at all and instead making it a morally ambiguous choice so your decision in the end had more meaning for your char.

Those are some of the flaws in writing that DG is rightfully being blamed for, his staff don't count as they don't have the title "Lead Writer". 

[AlexXIV]

Well if you credit him for DA:O you can as well blame him for DA2 ... just kidding.

I blame EA.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Weak characters as well as a weak plot. This isn't merely the opinion of a bunch of knuckleheads as some forumites here like to assume, but the primary complaint of mostly every negative review (also included in many positive ones).

Great example of weak writing: Aveline's entire motivation for becoming a follower. What is it? Because her husband died? I don't see any reason why she'd even bother fooling with Hawke, especially if she was an active city guard member. Especially if the Hawke she is following is borderline evil and disrespectful of the law. Now if you had the opportunity to "officially recruit her" later in act 1 for a more convincing reason, it'd be a different (and better) story.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 29 mars 2011 - 01:17 .

[Pink Leaf]

If I never ever hear of abominations and blood magic again, then it will be to soon.

[Kohaku]

I really have no idea. I would not have played this game a second (maybe even third time) if it wasn't for the characters. Some people don't like them but I found them pretty interesting. Unlike in Origins where I was always with Alistair, Zevran and Shale (Maybe Morrigan but that was rare. I didn't like her much anyway). I didn't like anyone past them. I was always excited to talk DA2 characters and I wish I could have talked to them more than we currently could.

The writing team had to do something right to get me to play a game more than once. I have so many games that if they even seen one playthrough it's a miracle. Their writing got me past the issues I really had with the game.  I'm not saying the story doesn't have issues but they were the least of my problems.

However, I will say, the final chapter of the game was to me the silliest part. The way things take shape just was out to lunch including the final battle. That seemed like just a MMO raid and I play MMOs alot.

Edit: I have to add that the "Everyone is a blood mage! Hide children! Hide!" story parts were insane. For something so forbidden everyone shouldn't be taking part in it. I can understand a few people but everyone? The First Enchanter too? Come on.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 29 mars 2011 - 01:41 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

v_ware wrote...

Some writing was awesome, all characters were fantastic.



But the overall plot was really...
MEH.

This really hits the nail on the head. I enjoy the game because of some awesome moments of writing and the very interesting (Although very limited) characters; but then the plot has to come and remind how absolutely mediocre it is.

[Darth Death]

People are always out for blood, its our nature. I blame the person who thought making DA2 like ME was a good idea.

[Miss Greyjoy]

I get the feeling that more stuff was written for the game, but cut out. For example, the plot about the attacks on Amaranthine ships that went nowhere, or the Gray Warden documents quests, or Fenris's empty treasure chest, etc. There were a few times that I felt that a plot hook was introduced then discarded. I wonder if the story ultimately suffered (through no fault of the writers) because of cuts to the content.

[aftohsix]

 I often wonder this myself.  I see a ton of hatred directed towards both Mr. Gaider and Mr. Laidlaw.

Yes people.  Mike Laidlaw.  Acting alone.  Created Dragon Age 2.

If one man were able to do that in a year and a half EA should give him his own development company.

[AlexXIV]

Well neither David nor Mike decide the budget or development time. People just like to vent frustration on the first best person that they can get a hand on.

[Cowboy_christo]

because he like twilight and the story has more ackward moment than my teenage years(and that's a lot). Hoh and somehow he doesnt understand that making wheel choice be the complete opposite of what they say, ****** ppl off.

[rwilli80]

To be honest there was a lot of lackluster dialog, there were a lot of spots that I thought the character contradicted itself, just one example, when the poison seller (in the hanged man) he wants you to go get his poison or whatever and hawke says poison kills people, instead of saying something stupid like I don't use it, the merchant should have said "Well so do you." That would have been clever and kinda funny at the time. And as its been stated before the dialog actually being different from what want your character to say. I can't remember the actual dialog but I wanted to basically tell one of the companions to suck it up and stop whining, but I pretty much did a weird mean flirty thing, I was like what the *beep*.

[Ostagar2011]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

David is the Lead Writer...NOT the Lead designer.

If anyone is to blame, that would be Lidlaw and whoever decided it should be finished in such a shot amount of time.

No, not even Laidlaw. Mark Derrah is the project director. He commanded Laidlaw to make a dumb slasher. Maybe EA commanded Derrah?

The other point is - blame for what? DA2 not being a red-blooded RPG? then Mark Derrah.

Not being successful in sales? I would say the person who insisted DA2 be called "Dragon Age". That was ****** poor brand management. A stoned, first year marketing student would have done a better job at energizing the Call of Duty audience (and might perhaps have managed not to upset the RPG audience as much either).

[Slayer299]

aftohsix wrote...

 I often wonder this myself.  I see a ton of hatred directed towards both Mr. Gaider and Mr. Laidlaw.

Yes people.  Mike Laidlaw.  Acting alone.  Created Dragon Age 2.

If one man were able to do that in a year and a half EA should give him his own development company.

ML did not make DA2 all by himself, he was the head of the entire team. If the writing is lackluster (and to me it is, along with the 2 dimensional char's) then who else can you point the finger at other than the lead writer? ML does not write dialogue or story, that was done by DG's team. 

Oh, wait...was that sarcasm??

[rolson00]

Ostagar2011 wrote...

Not being successful in sales? I would say the person who insisted DA2 be called "Dragon Age". That was ****** poor brand management.

yes im with you there should have been called somthing like Dragon Age kirkwall

Modifié par rolson00, 29 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[mr_afk]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Great example of weak writing: Aveline's entire motivation for becoming a follower. What is it? Because her husband died? I don't see any reason why she'd even bother fooling with Hawke, especially if she was an active city guard member. Especially if the Hawke she is following is borderline evil and disrespectful of the law. Now if you had the opportunity to "officially recruit her" later in act 1 for a more convincing reason, it'd be a different (and better) story.

Well in theory i suppose the whole escaping Lothering/Ferelden together as well as the whole hawke helping her get into Kirkwall thing could have caused her to consider hawke and family as friends? I recall some dialogue when you first talk to her after she becomes a city guard, and she says something along the lines of her liking to 'look out for Hawke'. And her husband dying could mean that she doesn't have anywhere/anyone to go to, hence hanging out  in Kirkwall. Not so sure what's the deal in a rival relationship; Maybe she likes getting the opportunity to give disapproving looks and rival points? haha

rwilli80 wrote...

instead of saying something stupid like I don't use it, the merchant should have said "Well so do you." 

Haha I can totally imagine that fitting perfectly in there. But there are several amusing lines of dialogue that worked quite well. I found most of isabela's comments as well as some of sarcastic hawke ones to be hilarious. I guess you just have to take the good with the bad.


But yes, I also wonder why people blame gaider for not making DA2 the game they wanted. From my understanding he pretty much invented/created the dragonage setting, so in addition to the amazing storyline in Origins, he is the reason why 'dragonage' exists in the first place?

And the characters/companions in DA2 didn't seem that weak to me, they all had distinct personalities, backstories and quirks. Given, i found most of them to be quite annoying (especially fenris), but even still, there was a decent level of depth to them. The main problem probably was that there weren't enough opportunities for Hawke to interact with them which meant there was too much reliance on party banter for character development (and huge amounts of banter isn't heard due to the party selection etc)

In terms of storyline, DA2 seems to be one giant build up to DA3, which to be fair, doesn't predispose it to be the most epic and exciting of plot lines. While the emphasis on mages/templars was a little unsubtle and several of the sidequests were pretty terrible, if you look at the focus of the story as setting the scene for a truly epic questline/storyline in DA3 it isn't so bad, managing to tell a pretty decent tale about how/why Hawke is important at the same time. Even the method of story telling was good as it allowed foreshadowing and a sense of something ominous impending in the near future/present day.. 

And anyway, if anyone deserves to get raged at, it would be the person who decided that recycling all those maps so blatantly was a good idea!! I mean, the minimap - if a part isn't accessible, it shouldn't be on the minimap!!! Compared to that, any flaws in the storyline are minimal/forgivable. And because EA/time constraints are probably to blame for that/everything, I suppose nothing there's nothing to be done but the usual EA is evil rants. haha


edit: somewhat related thread I just came across, http://social.biowar...29424/1#6829606

Modifié par mr_afk, 29 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[Imryll]

I think part of it, at least, is his many posts during the course of development stating that what mattered was not what game we wanted, but the game they wanted to make. It's interesting to see how this thesis continues to play out in the marketplace and on the forums.

Bioware seems to have been testing both just how many corners they could cut and still have folks willing to pay full price and a genre adjustment at the same time, so the waters are muddy. If more care had been given to encounter design, would there have been less pushback on the over-the-top combat animations? If the text accompanying the tone icons had been more carefully crafted to avoid surprises, would a substantial number of folks have minded the new dialogue system less? Hard to say.

[Nameless2345]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Great example of weak writing: Aveline's entire motivation for becoming a follower. What is it? Because her husband died? I don't see any reason why she'd even bother fooling with Hawke, especially if she was an active city guard member. Especially if the Hawke she is following is borderline evil and disrespectful of the law. Now if you had the opportunity to "officially recruit her" later in act 1 for a more convincing reason, it'd be a different (and better) story.

That's not  funny. 
1]H.s intervention in the first hour of the game saved Aveline's live. Wounded husband, hordes of darkspawns, ogre, rngs any bell? Common hardships bond people...especially those who have lost everything, including their home.
2]H.s uncle and H. got her in the city, hence, in the guard.
3]H.s aids her greatly with the career in the first act. No one else would.
For such dutiful character that's a lot. Keep in mind that Aveline is not likely to have many friends or even good aquaintances.
Have you even played this game? And can you name  a RPG where all companions have better reasons to follow?

[Artemis_Entrari]

rolson00 wrote...

what i don't get is if you hate da2 why blame david gaider? i mean he didnt make the entire game on his todd

Um ... who is Todd, and why would Mr. Gaider make a game on him?

[Ostagar2011]

rolson00 wrote...

Ostagar2011 wrote...

Not being successful in sales? I would say the person who insisted DA2 be called "Dragon Age". That was ****** poor brand management.

yes im with you there should have been called somthing like Dragon Age kirkwall

And some mutterings about a 'possible' Origins 2 in circa 2015 and suddenly we'd have had a forum full of happy bunnies. Or maybe just a little ME2-style mini backlash that would have fizzled out after a week. They are just completely out of touch.

[rolson00]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

rolson00 wrote...

what i don't get is if you hate da2 why blame david gaider? i mean he didnt make the entire game on his todd

Um ... who is Todd, and why would Mr. Gaider make a game on him?

it means "on his own" its uk slang

[iTIMMEH]

Because he was the lead writer and the writing is... not going to win any awards.

[bEVEsthda]

Everything in DA2 that Gaider is responsible for is well done, often excellent even. As for Laidlow, much the same can be said for him. He got a task, make this kind of linear game for consoles, a shedule, and a budget, and "by the way, improve graphics". And I think he must be considered as of having pulled it off.
Remember, all decision were already taken, before. Those were the reasons Knowles didn't want any part of it. So just quit trying to find scapegoats to lynch.