151 réponses à ce sujet

[1000questions]

Some people are just taking it to extremes, DA2 is a bad product ... fair enough.
The forums like I hate X, Y , Z or Fire X,Y,Z person doesnt make sense.

We are witnessing two extreme currents flowing on these forums. On one side we have extreme haters on other side we have biodrones,sycophants praising endlessly.

[Cadaveth]

Isn't he the lead writer? Story is lame and the writing and quest design as a whole is seriously lacking.

[spell trigger]

I have no intention of buying this game, but I don't think that the writing team (including David Gaider) is responsible for this mess.

I have no doubt that a lot of the stuff was cut out from the DA2, because the game was rushed and most of the resources were spent elsewhere (for example, ridiculous fighting animations, ugly re-design of elf and darkspawn models, and other "awesome" "improvements").

Even in DAO, some of the written content was removed from the game and DA2 obviously suffers from the very short development time.

I'll always support David Gaider's work (including his books), and I can only hope that his writing team will get more artistic freedom in DA3 (or some other game).

[Zhijn]

I think the story had great potential, and i quite liked it for what it was.

Problem i found with the story was that it never got worked into the game untill act 3 near its ending, which made it pretty much obsolete to care for, and its characters. It needed something per act to push you forward but instead you got all these small "city stories" that went no where.

I had a very similar feeling when i was playing ME2 (babysitting the crew).

I dont know why BioWare keep doing this to their sequels. Boogles my mind.

Modifié par Zhijn, 29 mars 2011 - 05:38 .

[ginzaen]

rolson00 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Attacking David Gaider has been a fan tradition since at least Neverwinter Nights. Not just for the writing, mind you. That would be too logical. I've seen people attack David for the marketing, the DRM, the areas, the various bugs people encounter, and other sundry things.

I've seen people convinced that David is responsible for the lack of a friendly fire toggle.

Then again, Jennifer is apparently responsible for the lack of proper isometric camera and the 'hack and slash' gameplay. I think it's a bit rude of those two to hog all the problems with the game. What about Mary, Sheryl, and Luke? I'm sure we could blame them for something.

heh yea its davids fault that i broke my arm in 1997 why the hell didnt he fly to the uk and save me

rofl always blame david!

[the_one_54321]

rolson00 wrote...
what i don't get is if you hate da2 why blame david gaider? i mean he didnt make the entire game on his todd

Darth Gaider is a writier, and a pretty darn good writer. While I don't agree with absolutely everything he claims about this game, I cannot say that he is bad at what he does or that he should not continue to do it.

[CRISIS1717]

You make it seem like there is only one lead writer that could competently do the job. I believe Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider should be replaced with Leads that can steer development back on course.

[the_one_54321]

CRISIS1717 wrote...
I believe Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider should be replaced with Leads that can steer development back on course.

I don't see why Darth Gaider should be replaced. There wasn't anything particularly broken about the narrative. I think the implimentation of the romances was weak, but that's my opinion and it's hardly game breaking.

As for Mike, I'd be happier if he was more contrite. My main problem with his steering is that he made a specific promise that he then failed to keep, then he has acted as if that was our fault.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

You make it seem like there is only one lead writer that could competently do the job. I believe Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider should be replaced with Leads that can steer development back on course.

I believe that they should keep their jobs. there is always room for improvement and refining of a person's craft.

[Steppenwolf]

Since when is it not acceptable to hold people accountable for their work? Stop trying to be internet-white-knights just because he posts here. He's the head writer and it's one of the most common complaints that the story lacks focus and the characters have less depth than their Origins' counterparts. That's the fault of the writing staff and he's the head writer.

[DarthSliver]

Well I dont find the concept bad or anything, but you can see that it was rushed. I mean everything they wanted to do to it needed more than 2 years. I mean they wanted to redo almost everything from art to gameplay mechanics. They simpling didnt have enough time and you can directly see that as the result of the final product. They mightve been better off having the Qunari as the main threat with the same Mage to Templar hate side quest going on. But where there shouldve been more in one area it turned out to lack where you expected to see more on that particular detail.

But in the end with the final product it felt more like a bridge to the actual sequel of Dragon Age: Origin than the sequel it was suppose to be. Its by far not the worst game we are going to see released this year like some of the haters would like you to think, its at least worth one play to at least experience it.

But people blame David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw are reasonable, those 2 people shouldve told whoever is incharge of them, that they needed more time on DA2.

[the_one_54321]

BasilKarlo wrote...
That's the fault of the writing staff and he's the head writer.

Not necessarily. There could be other reasons.

A million monkeys with a million type writers writing for a million years will eventually reproduce Shakespeare.

A genius with a pencil and a day can only produce so much.

I wouldn't be so quick to lay all the blame on their shoulders. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to lump up "the common complaints" as so conclusive. They are common, yes, and that matters. But they certainly aren't the end-all-be-all of the game. Players are divided on this stuff to some degree.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 29 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[CRISIS1717]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CRISIS1717 wrote...
I believe Mike Laidlaw and David Gaider should be replaced with Leads that can steer development back on course.

I don't see why Darth Gaider should be replaced. There wasn't anything particularly broken about the narrative. I think the implimentation of the romances was weak, but that's my opinion and it's hardly game breaking.

As for Mike, I'd be happier if he was more contrite. My main problem with his steering is that he made a specific promise that he then failed to keep, then he has acted as if that was our fault.

Sorry I have to disagree I thought the narrative was weak, the story structure was disjointed, the characterisation was thin and the script writing was abysmal, I've seen better dialogue in fanfics. 

Every dog has his day which for David Gaider was back with Origins.There's no reason why another experienced lead writer couldn't step up and bring back some depth to the writing on DA3.

Modifié par CRISIS1717, 29 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Steppenwolf]

DarthSliver wrote...

But people blame David Gaider and Mike Laidlaw are reasonable, those 2 people shouldve told whoever is incharge of them, that they needed more time on DA2.

Exactly. Origins had a very lengthy development cycle because they needed more time to implement thier vision. There's no reason they couldn't have gotten another year, or at the very least 6 months. Bioware is not some dinky little company that will cower to EA's every whim. Bioware obviously got lazy with this title and it shows.

[Statulos]

In Spain we say that guilt is a widow. I will not praise Gaider this time for I think he did a better job in Origins than in DA2.

When I bash academic writing (on a daily basis, I make a living out of that) I try to understand the context under what something was written. Like I said, DA2 felt less inspired than DA:O but considering that both games come from pretty much the same authors, I am led to think what changed in the "production environment" of both works.

Rushed? I think so. Simplified some times? Maybe because the other elements of the chain could not implement certain things.

My point is, yes, I think DA2 is worse written than DA:O but I simply don't have the elements to address why.

[the_one_54321]

Well, I can't comment on that because I haven't experienced enough of the dialog. I wonder if the "disjointed narrative" isn't just a personal preference thing, though. I remember really enjoying the general directionlessness of FFXII.

[Junri]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Since when is it not acceptable to hold people accountable for their work? Stop trying to be internet-white-knights just because he posts here. He's the head writer and it's one of the most common complaints that the story lacks focus and the characters have less depth than their Origins' counterparts. That's the fault of the writing staff and he's the head writer.

He was the lead writer in Origins and wrote most of Origin's characters. You do realize he passed on the baton to other writers in DA2 especially in terms of writing the lines for characters. If you want something like Origins again, only David Gaider can bring it because you need to realize he is the head writer for the entire team who wrote the ENTIRE Dragon Age series.

Also, I think people have a misconception that the Head Writer has that much control over what content he can put in. Its the design team and executives who set what they want for the game and the writers have to follow their decisions. Writing is still a job and writers still have bosses even if you are a head of the writing team you still have to follow the orders of whoever is above you. I don't blame David Gaider because we've all seen what he can put out (Origins as well as his novels) and it was good. I blame whoever set such crappy guidelines for DA2 and I think its safe to point fingers at the design team.

[Steppenwolf]

the_one_54321 wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...
That's the fault of the writing staff and he's the head writer.

Not necessarily. There could be other reasons.

A million monkeys with a million type writers writing for a million years will eventually reproduce Shakespeare.

A genius with a pencil and a day can only produce so much.

So you're saying the writing staff was too rushed to make a good story? Since when can't a lead writer of a project ask for more time?
And as far as I'm concerned the story at it's most basic is flawed and no amount of extra time could have helped it. It was basically 3 disconnected stories. The writing staff did that. Plain and simple.

I wouldn't be so quick to lay all the blame on their shoulders. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to lump up "the common complaints" as so conclusive. They are common, yes, and that matters. But they certainly aren't the end-all-be-all of the game. Players are divided on this stuff to some degree.

So Bioware should ignore that critique because only most reviews criticize the writing?

[the_one_54321]

BasilKarlo wrote...
So you're saying the writing staff was too rushed to make a good story? Since when can't a lead writer of a project ask for more time?
And as far as I'm concerned the story at it's most basic is flawed and no amount of extra time could have helped it. It was basically 3 disconnected stories. The writing staff did that. Plain and simple.

So Bioware should ignore that critique because only most reviews criticize the writing?

No, no, and no.
I'm saying that you don't actually know the things you are claiming to know. That's pretty much it.

[AkiKishi]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well, I can't comment on that because I haven't experienced enough of the dialog. I wonder if the "disjointed narrative" isn't just a personal preference thing, though. I remember really enjoying the general directionlessness of FFXII.

A lot of it is down to the timeskips and lack of freedom over directing the story to a particular outcome.

It's not so much the writing is bad as the plot does not hang together in a cohesive way.

[Steppenwolf]

Junri wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...

Since when is it not acceptable to hold people accountable for their work? Stop trying to be internet-white-knights just because he posts here. He's the head writer and it's one of the most common complaints that the story lacks focus and the characters have less depth than their Origins' counterparts. That's the fault of the writing staff and he's the head writer.

He was the lead writer in Origins and wrote most of Origin's characters. You do realize he passed on the baton to other writers in DA2 especially in terms of writing the lines for characters. If you want something like Origins again, only David Gaider can bring it because you need to realize he is the head writer for the entire team who wrote the ENTIRE Dragon Age series.

Also, I think people have a misconception that the Head Writer has that much control over what content he can put in. Its the design team and executives who set what they want for the game and the writers have to follow their decisions. Writing is still a job and writers still have bosses even if you are a head of the writing team you still have to follow the orders of whoever is above you. I don't blame David Gaider because we've all seen what he can put out (Origins as well as his novels) and it was good. I blame whoever set such crappy guidelines for DA2 and I think its safe to point fingers at the design team.

Where does personal integrity come into play then? I seem to recall a former Bioware employee turning down the big job on DA2 because he had some.
Seriously, people. Stop making excuses.

[Steppenwolf]

the_one_54321 wrote...

BasilKarlo wrote...
So you're saying the writing staff was too rushed to make a good story? Since when can't a lead writer of a project ask for more time?
And as far as I'm concerned the story at it's most basic is flawed and no amount of extra time could have helped it. It was basically 3 disconnected stories. The writing staff did that. Plain and simple.

So Bioware should ignore that critique because only most reviews criticize the writing?

No, no, and no.
I'm saying that you don't actually know the things you are claiming to know. That's pretty much it.

What is it that you're claiming I declare knowledge of? Origins did have a longer development cycle. It is a common complaint of DA2 that the story is disjointed. So what is it?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Weak characters as well as a weak plot. This isn't merely the opinion of a bunch of knuckleheads as some forumites here like to assume, but the primary complaint of mostly every negative review (also included in many positive ones).

Great example of weak writing: Aveline's entire motivation for becoming a follower. What is it? Because her husband died? I don't see any reason why she'd even bother fooling with Hawke, especially if she was an active city guard member. Especially if the Hawke she is following is borderline evil and disrespectful of the law. Now if you had the opportunity to "officially recruit her" later in act 1 for a more convincing reason, it'd be a different (and better) story.

Aveline? Didn't she fight trough darkaspawn with you to escape Loithering?
Weren't you with her on the ship for weeks?
Then for a year, serving the mercs/smugglers together to gain entry to Kirkwall?

[MrTijger]

BasilKarlo wrote...

Where does personal integrity come into play then? I seem to recall a former Bioware employee turning down the big job on DA2 because he had some.
Seriously, people. Stop making excuses.

He also said he was burned out and couldnt stand the pressure and thats after having 4.5 years to accomplish something...so, how do you imagine he'd handle a 1.5 year production, hmm?

[Finnigan McBonk]

Zhijn wrote...

I think the story had great potential, and i quite liked it for what it was.

Problem i found with the story was that it never got worked into the game untill act 3 near its ending, which made it pretty much obsolete to care for, and its characters. It needed something per act to push you forward but instead you got all these small "city stories" that went no where.

I had a very similar feeling when i was playing ME2 (babysitting the crew).

I dont know why BioWare keep doing this to their sequels. Boogles my mind.

Very fairminded post. David Gaider is not the one pulling the strings here. In fact, I think he and his crew did quite well given the constraints/design they were told to work within.

I also love your depiction of ME2: babysitting. That's exactly what that game was... babysitting. The so-called "epic suicide mission" never really materialized, did it?