151 réponses à ce sujet

[rolson00]

Mecher3k wrote...

Last person I would blame is Gaider, the core story shows promise of being epic, and there are some bits of epicness in the game.

I blame whoever decided to rush and make Dragon Age into Mass Effect Medieval. And I know that wasn't Gaider.

that was  mike laidlaw he said in a number of interviews there were certain things he wanted to do in da2

[Avissel]

shaneho78 wrote...

A mod allows you to play as an elf if you play your games on the PC.

and if you dont mind ignoreing that it causes lots of the game to make zero sense.

[rolson00]

Avissel wrote...

shaneho78 wrote...

A mod allows you to play as an elf if you play your games on the PC.

and if you dont mind ignoreing that it causes lots of the game to make zero sense.

hmmm i'm hoping that you can play different races in da3 if they do one

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Gaider isn't at fault, although he really needs to work on his condescension problem.

Laidlaw is at fault.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

I have to agree I think Gaider is a great writer, I've enjoyed his pervious work. My problem is that DA2 as its released is a terrible story not because of plot but because of pacing and lack of depth. The story is to piecemeal because of the time gaps and it hits it high point during the Arishok duel leaving a big force feeding or a written in stone ending and an unnecessary cliff hanger. This could have been fixed some what with a prologue of some kind where Hawke, or even the Warden rescues Varric and tells him the time is coming to gather Hawkes allies and meet him to change the world. Now if the Warden was in the end of the game do you really think so many people would be complaining, it would be all OMG! the Warden He looks so much cooler and he has a voice (and faint). It is a bad story because of cheap implementation, especially the time gaps, and the holding back of plot to sell DLC in the future.

[SexBomb]

I'm not quite sure what the relation is between Gaider and Laidlaw, but to me it seems like a combination of the two.

The thing I disliked most in DAII was the story and the characters (I found them to be flat and unimaginative), so that's where I feel David Gaider really comes into the complaint.

What really gets to me, however, is not the poor execution of story or the multiple holes, but the way Mr. Gaider (and Mr. Laidlaw, though I haven't seen as much from him) seems to have been treating the fan's reaction. From the interviews and posts on these very forums, all I've really seen from Gaider is his immediate defense of the game. It makes me feel as though he doesn't like to acknowledge the blaring flaws in the story, instead simply covering for it by saying that people are often unaware of what "plot hole" really means, and giving other (what I would regard as) frustrating praise to the story. I would not feel nearly as pained by the situation if he would come out and acknowledge such, instead of only defying the numerous cries of disappointment. Maybe saying that he's aware that the writing has many flaws, but with EA's new (and ridiculously short) timeline the writing team did the best they could. That's really all it would take, for me.

The most heartbreaking part of the story (in my opinion, at least) is that I'm in school for animation and writing, and once dreamed of being on the bioware creative team either for writing or character design. I used to praise Gaider for his work on DAO, and wondered if I might some day work under him. But now all I can think about his disregard for fans showing righteous problems in the execution of story.

I understand that being an employee he might not want to say anything bad about BioWare or EA games, but it seems to me that he is just all too ready to jump into the forums and defend the game with his life. If this had been my story; if I had been the lead writer, I would be curled up in a ball of shame, wondering what I did wrong and staying far away from the forums. Vice-Admiral von Titsling (as seen above) is right. He has an amazing condescension complex.

I still respect Gaider as a writer, and hope that if he's still on the team for DA3, he can bring some of the heart that was lost in DAII back to the franchise. I like to think the game was just an unfortunate accident, and that the writing team will learn from its mistakes and the fan's cry. Here's hoping.

[Monica83]

Im not one of the people that not attack david gaider but i must admit DA2 have not a strong narrative only that

//Edited: Sorry david dear i always write Gaider with y so sorry..my mistake//

Modifié par Monica83, 13 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[Jitter]

Schurge wrote...

There are many things that I don't like about Dragon Age II, but the writing isn't one of them, and I still don't really understand why a significant percentage of Dragon Age players hate the writing.

I thought the presentation of the game's story was unique and interesting. While I do not think that having the story told after the fact through the eyes of Varric is necessarily the most appropriate way for this style of game, it did an excellent job of keeping you interested and building up anticipation for chapter three since the game's story as a whole didn't have a central focus.

Because of Varric hinting at the future in Chapter II, I could barely stand to do the other quests in Chapter III because I wanted to see what was going to happen. And while Chapter I and most of Chapter II were kind of slow going, and you didn't feel the push to complete the main quests when the Companion quests were far more interesting, Chapter III felt like a race.

I also don't understand the hate for the characters, of whom I thought were well written and for the most part strongly developed over the course of the story (especially Merril and Aveline). Of course I miss Morrigan, Leliana, and the rest - I definently felt more connected to most of the companions in Origins more than those in DAII (I did not romance Leliana, but while playing I definently felt like she was my best friend because of our interactions). That doesn't mean however, that the DAII companions stunk, I think Aveline rivals several of the Origins companions. I loved that instead of being able to romance her, you could help her start a relationship with an NPC, it would be cool if in the future you could have the option to help cultivate a romance between two companions.

I think to many people are assuming that just because they liked Origins' story and companions better that that means the story and companions in DAII have to stink. That, and they are loathe to give DAII any credit for fear that it will reinforce Bioware's misguided belief that we didn't want another Origins' style game. I myself hesitate to compliment the story and characters in DAII because I like Origins' a helluva alot more - but just because I do, it doesn't mean I can't like parts of DAII or that DAII is 100% terrible.

Read your own post slowly and you will understand ... 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Schurge wrote...
I thought the presentation of the game's story was unique and interesting. While I do not think that having the story told after the fact through the eyes of Varric is necessarily the most appropriate way for this style of game, it did an excellent job of keeping you interested and building up anticipation for chapter three since the game's story as a whole didn't have a central focus.

It should be interesting. But it isn't. And you are right about "I do not think having the story told after the fact through the eyes of Varric is necessarily the most appropriate way for this style of game." 

Schurge wrote...
Because of Varric hinting at the future in Chapter II, I could barely stand to do the other quests in Chapter III because I wanted to see what was going to happen. And while Chapter I and most of Chapter II were kind of slow going, and you didn't feel the push to complete the main quests when the Companion quests were far more interesting, Chapter III felt like a race.

What role do you play? An audience to a storyteller or Hawke? If you are just an audience, then you are right about wanting to know what happen next. But If you are Hawke, think carefully. Is that how Hawke perceive things are? Hawke already did all those things. What reasoning for Hawke to find out what next in the past? And where is he now? Where are you now?  If you can't answer your own existence in current reality, then what make sense to you to continue further?

Schurge wrote...
I also don't understand the hate for the characters, of whom I thought were well written and for the most part strongly developed over the course of the story (especially Merril and Aveline). Of course I miss Morrigan, Leliana, and the rest - I definently felt more connected to most of the companions in Origins more than those in DAII (I did not romance Leliana, but while playing I definently felt like she was my best friend because of our interactions). That doesn't mean however, that the DAII companions stunk, I think Aveline rivals several of the Origins companions. I loved that instead of being able to romance her, you could help her start a relationship with an NPC, it would be cool if in the future you could have the option to help cultivate a romance between two companions.

DA 2 companions stunk because the way the narrative is been handled. It tries so hard to show relationship development realism in term of mannerism. Yet it fail to acknowledge that time changes and players are left out/disconnected during each ACT transitions. You acknowledge that it's realistic to show the companions have their own live. Yet you fail to address that time has changed and years has passed. You failed to acknowledge that having 3 to 4 conversations per years is extremely a lame way to force feed relationship development. It's no longer realistic and deep despite what you claim it is. 

Schurge wrote...
I think to many people are assuming that just because they liked Origins' story and companions better that that means the story and companions in DAII have to stink. That, and they are loathe to give DAII any credit for fear that it will reinforce Bioware's misguided belief that we didn't want another Origins' style game. I myself hesitate to compliment the story and characters in DAII because I like Origins' a helluva alot more - but just because I do, it doesn't mean I can't like parts of DAII or that DAII is 100% terrible.

DA 2 companions stink. Press a heart button is all you need. You don't have to think much about picking your dialogue. You don't have to keep pushing more for more options and worried if you aren't picking the right ones. A heart button is all you need. You really thinks that's how you flirt with someone? Morrigan cause me a lot of thinking, observing and understanding. But both Merrill and Isabella are cheap chicks that anyone can just pick from street and go for one night stand. 

You are right DA II isn't 100% terrible. It's 79% stinks.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 14 avril 2011 - 01:29 .

[Mantaal]

I think the problem with the Charakters is (in my opinion)

They have no depth. They never chance thier minds. They are just Fanatics.Even Baldurs Gate make deeper Charakters. You have some influence on your Companions in BG2 so they might change thier minds.

But the DA2 Companions are simple:
Fenris is a Fanatic Anti-Mage
Anders is a Fanatic Anti-Templer
Merril is a Fanatic "I want to restore the Mirrow and if the whole world dies"
Isabella is a Fanatic "I want my Ship"
Sebastian is a Fanatic "I love the Church"

The only Persons who have a bit depth in the game and connot be described with just one sentence are Aveline and Varric.

After Merril "reached the goal" in some way on the last Quest. She dont even says a word about it. You could killed them all and what did Merril Respond after that? Nothing.
Thats a really sad storytelling. I have no idea how Players could defend that kind of shallow Charakters.

I dont know if i should blame Gaider for that. So i did not. But someone did a really lazy job.

Modifié par Mantaal, 14 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[Everwarden]

Honestly, I don't think the writing in DA2 was "bad", I just think it felt a bit like some jackass took a knife and hacked out the last third of the book, and every other chapter before that. 

Okay, I take it back, that makes it pretty bad. Not really Gaider's fault, though. Fire Laidlaw, his vision of Dragon Age just didn't work and everyone knows it. 

[rolson00]

Everwarden wrote...

Honestly, I don't think the writing in DA2 was "bad", I just think it felt a bit like some jackass took a knife and hacked out the last third of the book, and every other chapter before that. 

Okay, I take it back, that makes it pretty bad. Not really Gaider's fault, though. Fire Laidlaw, his vision of Dragon Age just didn't work and everyone knows it. 

yea when i read about his "new direction" i did rise an eyebrow.
 firing him isn't the answer tho he just wanted to change things too much to quickly while still being in touch with the first.
  a big mistake in my view. what he should have done, was cut lose every thing that was realated to DA:O. add the old party members like they did, but all things about origins should not have been in da2 that just made people compair it to DA:O.
  isabella shouldn't have been used either because of her connection to the warden they should have called her something else & changed her background slightly.
   but again thats just what i think i'm not pretending to be an expert in video game marketing.

came across this guy this is just the start of his post but it is a very good read, if you want to read all of it follow the link(please note this was in the da2 game owners section if you don't own the game you won't be able to comment)

http://social.biowar...5/index/7037390

jds1bio wrote...
The only assumption I'm going to make about you before starting is that, if you like to play RPGs, you like to play roles that are more meaningful than just participating in a game's combat. For you, an RPG experience is more than just winning combat and watching the next story scene, or losing and being brought to a re-load screen.

Modifié par rolson00, 14 avril 2011 - 05:17 .

[rolson00]

a guy call dracotamer has an interesting thread as well
again this is just the start follow the link below to view it all

http://social.biowar...index/6562832/1

dracotamer wrote...
Let me start off my saying I was one of those people flocked to the forums to express my hatred for this game. My original rating for DA2 was a 5. I'd now say it is a 7.5 due to the dumbed down features and recycled resources.

Modifié par rolson00, 14 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[randName]

Not all do, or while I found the end game pretty horrible story wise (at least for a cRPG, perhaps its decent for an action game, or straight adventure romp), I had little issues with the story up to that point.

The problem was more how the story was told through use of the environment, and gameplay - as in the city never changing, nothing really changing, or aside from Aveline, Bethany/Carver (and Merrill, but only if you romance her) everyone is dressed the same, after 7 years! The merchants are the same, everyone is more or less the same, the narrative of time falls flat when there is no actual change at all.

Nor does it feel like a living breathing world due to how people behave, or guards just stand there as you get attacked by bandits/robbers, civilians just stand there, right in the fire, no reactions.

The world is dead, and thus the story dwindles as there is no believability to the characters, to the world they want to bring alive.

And is this David Gaider at work? probably not, and I've so far mostly written well about him, due to his stance on the bisexuality in the game, and since one of the things I do like is the dialogue.

He was condescending, writing up the 5 stages of grief ~ but that is fair, but also worth some flak.


Either way that's just me, and since I really haven't been apart of the hate against Gaider this post is pretty moot.

Modifié par randName, 14 avril 2011 - 06:24 .

[Fhaileas]

Thats-Your-Funeral wrote...

What really gets to me, however, is not the poor execution of story or the multiple holes, but the way Mr. Gaider (and Mr. Laidlaw, though I haven't seen as much from him) seems to have been treating the fan's reaction. From the interviews and posts on these very forums, all I've really seen from Gaider is his immediate defense of the game. It makes me feel as though he doesn't like to acknowledge the blaring flaws in the story, instead simply covering for it by saying that people are often unaware of what "plot hole" really means, and giving other (what I would regard as) frustrating praise to the story. I would not feel nearly as pained by the situation if he would come out and acknowledge such, instead of only defying the numerous cries of disappointment. Maybe saying that he's aware that the writing has many flaws, but with EA's new (and ridiculously short) timeline the writing team did the best they could. That's really all it would take, for me.
.

Exactly! He comes across as extremely defensive when his work is critiqued, he uses ad-hoc reasoning to explain away glaring flaws and belittles individuals who have the temerity to defend their contention. Of course, when pushed into a corner he excuses continuity errors, lore ret-cons etc. by arrogantly asserting his position as the "creator and lead writer" who can change the world of Dragon Age as he sees fit, hence any arguments to the contrary are rendered moot. Overall, he appears to have a  very fragile ego and an over-inflated notion of himself.

Modifié par Fhaileas, 15 avril 2011 - 03:15 .

[rolson00]

i was browsing the other forums and i came across this on the game spot forums
if you want to have a read heres the link http://uk.gamespot.c...sg_id=330160368

mkaliaz wrote...
name of thread Dragon Age 2 is the most "rushed to release" game ever created!!! 
My feelings on Bioware have really started to change in the last year in particular. I still believe they make quality games (for the most part), but they are turning into the biggest one of the biggest greedy and cash-grab companies that I can think of. From pre-order DLC, large amounts of short and uninspired DLC, and disapointing cash-grabs (i'm looking at you Awakening and DA2), they have been all about the "extras" lately. I really dont know if its EA causing this or if its Bioware themselves, but they are really disapointing me.

well a lot of people can relate to this guy from what i've read in these forums, although i personally only partly argee to bits of the title it was a "rush to release" game but it is far from being the worst, no one can argue that fable 3 is the most rushed to release game ever created i'm not sure that i'll get dragon age 3 either if mike laidlaw is still lead

Modifié par rolson00, 19 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[Seph696]

^Sad really but honest and true enough.
Point is when we as Rpg fans (or better i to avoid mistakes) go out and give our money to buy such a game we ( i ) do it because we want to escape in a fantasy world full of things to see and do and be one with the character and the story.

It the same when you watch a great movie and be able to "feel" joy sorrow anger etc by what is happening to the screen.

It may seems strange but i or we or w/e play Role-Playing-Game for that reason.If i want to blow things to smitherins i go and play Dead Space 2 or something.

Yeah there i got out already...im a little better now ty

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Aye the cash-grabbing is really disgusting, but it seems to be a different team behind mass effect 2, I mean they had several quality DLCs for FREE. So I wouldn't doom Bioware in it's entirety. But yea even in dao there were signs of laziness everywhere, as great as it may be.

[Seph696]

Truth is Bioware has teams and division.
DA team is one and ME team is other.
I have faith that ME3 will deliver.
At least i hope.....

[LyndseyCousland]

Regarding the quote by Chris Priestly in the OP: He's won my heart! I'm glad to see that someone is reminding people that both positive and negative feedback is important.
The thing that irritates me is when people get all stupidly aggressive over it or come across like they've been lobotomised.

Modifié par LyndseyCousland, 19 avril 2011 - 08:38 .

[Warheadz]

Well... it's kind of like this why people are attacking Laidlaw.




Anyways, he's not solely to blame, and it isn't the customers place to start begging Bioware to fire him.

[rolson00]

Warheadz wrote...

Well... it's kind of like this why people are attacking Laidlaw.




Anyways, he's not solely to blame, and it isn't the customers place to start begging Bioware to fire him.

lolz your post just made my day and that quote"Playing Dragon Age 2 is a lot like anal sex. I felt obligated to try it, but it was too painful to continue."
-Velour Velvet 

[rolson00]

3000 views

[Zal Air]

sheesh people...just pick a name.  We need to have a good old fashion lynching.

Wear is my torch?