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[loudent3]

Noatz wrote...
That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And this is the key. The realization that this authority could be abused, that one crazed person could kill everyone in the circle and that most of the templars, even realizing the person giving the order was off her rocker, would follow the order.

The fact that the annullment was called for an act that they had nothing to do with probably sent a chill down their backs. It's well known that there is a part of the chantry that would just as well see them all tranquil or dead and all it would take is an order from someone high up enough to make it happen, regardless of cause.

Not sure why the templars broke away though.

[thesuperdarkone]

loudent3 wrote...

Noatz wrote...
That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And this is the key. The realization that this authority could be abused, that one crazed person could kill everyone in the circle and that most of the templars, even realizing the person giving the order was off her rocker, would follow the order.

The fact that the annullment was called for an act that they had nothing to do with probably sent a chill down their backs. It's well known that there is a part of the chantry that would just as well see them all tranquil or dead and all it would take is an order from someone high up enough to make it happen, regardless of cause.

Not sure why the templars broke away though.

 

The templars broke away to fight the mages. I think some of the more zealous Templars didn't like this rebellion and decided to gather the rest of the Order to stop the Rebellion, Chantry help or no.

[Asdara]

I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

[Parrk]

The problem with the Ferelden issue was that they never even tried to see if they could find survivors. There were young children there.

Even cullen was still in there and they barred the doors and cowered in the entryway.

I have a problem with a group of cowards being given such "authority".

[PyroJack]

Asdara wrote...

I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

Seems Tevinter has convinced you that free mages means only one thing tyranny and is it really any better for every mage to be subjected to tyranny under the templars? or is this one those needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few situations?

[Noatz]

The Angry One wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I will just mention that the Rite of Anullment has been invoked in the past several times along the Circles. What makes this occassion special is the coordination of the rebellion, not the rebellion per se.

That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And yet the Right was going to be formed in Ferelden with far less of an abomination to mage ratio..

That was because the blood mages and abominations were in full control of the tower. Meredith called annulment on an entire Circle for the actions of an apostate not even affiliated with it (and she knew it).

[Noatz]

PyroJack wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

Seems Tevinter has convinced you that free mages means only one thing tyranny and is it really any better for every mage to be subjected to tyranny under the templars? or is this one those needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few situations?

The problem is that a mage in this world has by default greater power than a normal person and thus it is easier for them to abuse it. Not to mention one can generally carry out more horrible acts with magic than otherwise and become unstable/possessed - we all saw the state of the Circle tower in Origins, no-one wants that. I'm no fan of any dogmatic religion but in this case and setting it has a good point.

[Dark-sider77]

The Angry One wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I will just mention that the Rite of Anullment has been invoked in the past several times along the Circles. What makes this occassion special is the coordination of the rebellion, not the rebellion per se.

That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And yet the Right was going to be formed in Ferelden with far less of an abomination to mage ratio..

If you side with the Templars, Cullen will say that the situation in Ferelden was far worse than it was in Kirkwall. He also says that the Right was justified in Ferelden, but he is a little concerned that the Right of Annullment is being misused in the Kirkwall Circle.

[Statulos]

Aedan Lives wrote...

It took over a thousand years from the founding of the catholic church, until Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis on the door of his cathedral for the Protestant reformation to start. There's a lot involved in between that time, but biowares is depicting the breaking moment between the chantry and the mages. I don't find the length of time to be implausible.

Bingo. Or ideas such as considering that laws should be the same for everyone needed more than 1000 years to actually be implemented.

[PyroJack]

Noatz wrote...

PyroJack wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

Seems Tevinter has convinced you that free mages means only one thing tyranny and is it really any better for every mage to be subjected to tyranny under the templars? or is this one those needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few situations?

The problem is that a mage in this world has by default greater power than a normal person and thus it is easier for them to abuse it. Not to mention one can generally carry out more horrible acts with magic than otherwise and become unstable/possessed - we all saw the state of the Circle tower in Origins, no-one wants that. I'm no fan of any dogmatic religion but in this case and setting it has a good point.

Oh i know but you can be free and monitored there are better options than the templars and i don't have a problem with the templars themselves just some their methods after all there are kids in the circles i don't know about everyone else but i couldn't kill a kid just because they MIGHT be possessed or any innocent for that matter

[atheelogos]

Beerfish wrote...

The mages got fed up? You mean a small number of radicals got fed up in one city. The majority of the mages are not fed up by how they are treated. When they talk about the Circle near lake calenhad they list the various mage factions and the real radicals seem to be in the minority.

Well the mages are fed up enough that ever single Circle has rebelled so I'd call that a majority.<_<

[Noatz]

PyroJack wrote...

Noatz wrote...

PyroJack wrote...

Asdara wrote...

I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

Seems Tevinter has convinced you that free mages means only one thing tyranny and is it really any better for every mage to be subjected to tyranny under the templars? or is this one those needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few situations?

The problem is that a mage in this world has by default greater power than a normal person and thus it is easier for them to abuse it. Not to mention one can generally carry out more horrible acts with magic than otherwise and become unstable/possessed - we all saw the state of the Circle tower in Origins, no-one wants that. I'm no fan of any dogmatic religion but in this case and setting it has a good point.

Oh i know but you can be free and monitored there are better options than the templars and i don't have a problem with the templars themselves just some their methods after all there are kids in the circles i don't know about everyone else but i couldn't kill a kid just because they MIGHT be possessed or any innocent for that matter

Well, the templars in Kirkwall were doing things against Chantry law which shouldn't have been allowed, such as making Harrowed mages Tranquil. I don't think Templars everywhere practise the same kind of brutality you describe. Ultimately mages have to be controlled somehow or yes, you probably will get a situation like Tevinter emerging just as if you gave 10 people in a primitive tribe guns sooner or later some or all of them would be de-facto in command.

Modifié par Noatz, 29 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[Deztyn]

Parrk wrote...

The problem with the Ferelden issue was that they never even tried to see if they could find survivors. There were young children there.

Even cullen was still in there and they barred the doors and cowered in the entryway.

I have a problem with a group of cowards being given such "authority".

Lorewise the reason the rite exists is because in a similar situation attempting to isolate and control only the guilty resulted in an escaped abomination and mass slaughter. It was decided that if a circle is considered beyond helping sacrificing the innocents would be worth it to protect the masses.

Nice? No.

Cowardly? No.

Justified? Perhaps.

The rite has been performed 17 times in 700 years as of Origins and there are 14 circles according to DA2. The Chantry doesn't annul entire circles whenever a mage acts up. Going by what we see in the game, Kirkwall's circle is arguably already past the point of no return when Meredith invokes it. Blood mages and abominations are everywhere. More probably died in Kirkwall than Nevarra when the Rite was created.

And Anders blew up the only person who could legally authorize it's use, so Meredith could be forgiven for not going through the proper channels to get permission. Walking by the mad bomber is a separate issue.

[Corwyn]

The Angry One wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I will just mention that the Rite of Anullment has been invoked in the past several times along the Circles. What makes this occassion special is the coordination of the rebellion, not the rebellion per se.

That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And yet the Right was going to be formed in Ferelden with far less of an abomination to mage ratio..

Bioware has said that the number of abominations to regular mages was more gameplay than canon.  Think of all the times you found one blood mage on a side quest and he summoned like 4 abominations if not more.  One abomination isn't that much of a fight.

[Deztyn]

Macgarnickle wrote...
One abomination isn't that much of a fight.

That's more gameplay than canon too.

Canon is one abomination is Connor.

[AlexXIV]

Deztyn wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...
One abomination isn't that much of a fight.

That's more gameplay than canon too.

Canon is one abomination is Connor.

And even Connor could be saved without killing him. Just sayin. I don't think it is wise to use the example of the Circle of Ferelden or anything the Warden did as an excuse for drastic measures. Because the Warden always found a perfectly sensible and civilized way to deal with things.

[eye basher]

sacrifice the few for the needs of the many i would rather be a safe tyrant than a bleeding heart living on top a pile of corpses and demons

[Aurelet]

Chantry History shows 17 Circles annulled since they founded. We don't really know how many of those were Blood mages and how many were rebellions since the Chantry won and wrote the history books.

[elearon1]

Statulos wrote...Think for a second: how long did the Roman Empire lasted till slavery was banned? And think for a second, how long did it take to get slavery completely removed and globally considered as something loathsome?

This comparison doesn't really work; slavery wasn't banned because of a slave revolt, it was the result of political philosophies and support of powerful institutions. (including the Catholic church)  Slave rebellions themselves were not unknown in Rome ... in fact Massive slave rebellions were not unknown, (Sparticus being probably the most popular, but not even the largest) and in the end they simply resulting in being thrown down by the military (sometimes with more effort than others) and slavery continued as it always had. 

(another place where this example falls down is, while the Chantry is responsible for keeping the Circles, slavery did not originate with Rome)

[elearon1]

eye basher wrote...
sacrifice the few for the needs of the many i would rather be a safe tyrant than a bleeding heart living on top a pile of corpses and demons

Very true.  Hawke in my second playthrough supported the Templars, not because she believed every mage was using blood magic, but because she had seen it was enough of a real problem in Kirkwall that the circle seemed like the lesser of two evils.  (she felt Meridith was going overboard in some cases, sure, but until Meridith was replaced by people with the power to do that she was the only option ... and I'd rather have a broken circle than no circle at all)

[Russalka]

What makes you think there were no prior rebellions?

[Cankiie]

Mages deserves more rights, but still being watched carefully.

In Tevinter, as far as I understood, EVERYONE is a slave to the mages. Non magical aswell as weaker mages. Only the most powerful mages are not slaves or servants. Where in the circles, mages are only watched under very much supervision by the templars, who will surely abuse it, yes, but it will not affect the majority of the innocent non templars and non mages.

Anders was a ****er, really

Didn't like him anyway

Modifié par Cankiie, 29 mars 2011 - 10:48 .

[Ballistic714]

Statulos wrote...

Think for a second: how long did the Roman Empire lasted till slavery was banned? And think for a second, how long did it take to get slavery completely removed and globally considered as something loathsome?

^ This. Good point sir. Obviously this is a game and slavery was a real problem throughout human history... but the thought process is similar. People will go along with the system for countless years until enough people start standing up for what is right.

[The Angry One]

Dark-sider77 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Noatz wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

I will just mention that the Rite of Anullment has been invoked in the past several times along the Circles. What makes this occassion special is the coordination of the rebellion, not the rebellion per se.

That and the fact that Meredith's invocation of the rite was inappropriate.

And yet the Right was going to be formed in Ferelden with far less of an abomination to mage ratio..

If you side with the Templars, Cullen will say that the situation in Ferelden was far worse than it was in Kirkwall. He also says that the Right was justified in Ferelden, but he is a little concerned that the Right of Annullment is being misused in the Kirkwall Circle.

This being before the First Enchanter turns into a monster and near every mage backed into a corner goes abomination.
I'm saying that looking in retrospect, people elsewhere would see that the Kirkwall Circle was DOMINATED by abominations.

[NvVanity]

Orsino did a very good job at hiding his blood magic. Who saw that coming seriously? Meredith isn't very good at her job considering the amount of Blood Mages.