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[ZombiePowered]

They did rebel. It's called Tevinter.

[Lithuasil]

Still gameplay. For all we know, the 99,99% of the gallows we don't actually get to see are full of shivering younglings, crying for their mothers

[The Angry One]

ZombiePowered wrote...

They did rebel. It's called Tevinter.

That wasn't a rebellion. They slowly took over the Chantry until they had total control and gave the finger to the Divine.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[Noatz]

The Angry One wrote...

This being before the First Enchanter turns into a monster and near every mage backed into a corner goes abomination.
I'm saying that looking in retrospect, people elsewhere would see that the Kirkwall Circle was DOMINATED by abominations.

That doesn't change the circumstances she used to justify invoking it in the first place - namely Anders.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

All religions start out with good intentions so it most likely wasn't bad in the beginning but like all religions fanatics start too interprate the books text too justify fanatic, extreme behavior and eventually the religious zealots corrupt the hearts and minds of many people thus creating Fanaticism just like the terrorist of now, and the Christian and catholic crusades, and witch hunts of old.

[The Angry One]

Noatz wrote...

That doesn't change the circumstances she used to justify invoking it in the first place - namely Anders.

So nobody would speculate that maybe the blood mage necromancer crazy off his rocker First Enchanter was conspiring with the abomination to launch a terrorist attack?
Yes that isn't true, but nobody in all Thedas would look at the information and think maybe it was justified?

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Religions is mostly based on fear, and fear is the ultimate way too control the masses.

[ZombiePowered]

The entire religous system that the vast majority of people, including mages, in Thedas adhere to supported the mages being watched. And don't forget that, for a long time, Mages weren't allowed to use any magic other than to light the fires in the Chantry. The circles were actually a right gained by the mages. Ultimately, formal, mass rebellion against the entire system took so long to happen because of the pervasiveness of the Chantry ideology throughout Thedasian culture and attitudes towards magic. Just look at how long it took for the reformation to happen in Europe. Such a massive revolt against a system so many believe in is no small feat. Such things take centuries to reach their boiling point.

Modifié par ZombiePowered, 29 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[Talladarr]

rma2110 wrote...
Because the blight comes along every so often and reminds everyone how much damage power mad mages can inflict on the world.

That is Chantry legend, and being as it happened easilly 2,000 years ago, there is NO way to know for sure, however I seriously doubt that the Tevinters touching the Golden city and tainting it, being cursed by their own sin and then sent UNDERGROUND to fight the DWARVES while their bodies were still in TEVINTER, sems just a wee bit impractical.

Asdara wrote...
I don't see what the problem is... one of my Wardens, a mage at that, helped annul the Circle in Ferelden for the abominations there. Sometimes it is simply not salvageable, better the deaths of a few innocents than being subjected to the tyranny of magic all over Thedas again. Don't you people listen to the Chant of Light?! Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over him! Andraste's Ashes you think if mages got into power again they'd ever give the non-magical a fair place in the world?

And yet, I don't remember reading anywhere in what parts of the chant yo uget in codex and other codex entries, or any stories about Andraste saying ANYTHING about how that meant that that mages were to be held as prisoners in a stone tower, taken form their homes, cut off from their families and then treated as less than human.

Deztyn wrote...
Going by what we see in the game, Kirkwall's circle is arguably already past the point of no return when Meredith invokes it. Blood mages and abominations are everywhere. More probably died in Kirkwall than Nevarra when the Rite was created.

If you'll remember, 9/10(Or more for that matter) of the blood mages are all Apostates, they weren't IN the circle at all, at least not when you encountered them in the game! In fact, the only mage I can think of that was i nthe tower that actually used blood magic was Orsino, and that was only in the final conflict.

[Ixalmaris]

I would broaden the question and ask "what was everyone doing 937 years long"?
I mean look how far the world evolved in 1 millenium. And in DA2? Like many other fantasy worlds its in a permanent state of medivalism...

[Lithuasil]

@Zombiepowered
One of the reasons why the chantries Ideas are so widely accepted might be, that having a close eye on the people who frequently get possessed and light towns on fire, is a pretty compelling Idea

[Talladarr]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

Religions is mostly based on fear, and fear is the ultimate way too control the masses.

Yup, fear and guilt... And people wonder why
 I loathe organized religion >.>

[Ixalmaris]

ZombiePowered wrote...

The entire religous system that the vast majority of people, including mages, in Thedas adhere to supported the mages being watched. And don't forget that, for a long time, Mages weren't allowed to use any magic other than to light the fires in the Chantry. The circles were actually a right gained by the mages. Ultimately, formal, mass rebellion against the entire system took so long to happen because of the pervasiveness of the Chantry ideology throughout Thedasian culture and attitudes towards magic. Just look at how long it took for the reformation to happen in Europe. Such a massive revolt against a system so many believe in is no small feat. Such things take centuries to reach their boiling point.

It certainly did not take 937 years.
The reformation started in the 17th century, some sources even say early 16th century with Luther.
900 years before that Germany and eastern europe were still in the process of of actually forming countries out of their barbaric tribes while the rest of Europe was under roman rule.

Edit: And one could say that with the Tevinter chantry practcially splitting away, a event like Luthers reformation already happened. But nothing happened.

Modifié par Ixalmaris, 29 mars 2011 - 11:22 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Yup that's all it is everyone wants too have a free ticket too heaven. More war and blood shed has been claimed in the name or clashing ideas of religon more then anyother conflicts of ideas humanity has had. Anders would agree with me on that

[The Baconer]

Talladarr wrote...
If you'll remember, 9/10(Or more for that matter) of the blood mages are all Apostates, they weren't IN the circle at all, at least not when you encountered them in the game! In fact, the only mage I can think of that was i nthe tower that actually used blood magic was Orsino, and that was only in the final conflict.

While I generally agree with your views, I just wanted to clarify that mages who escape are also branded apostates, so it's likely that the large majority of them escaped from the Gallows.

[Lithuasil]

As I said above - the compelling thing about DA's chantry is - they actually have a point. Sure they go overboard, but unwatched mages, even those that mean well, ARE a threat, to themselves and to everyone else.

[Alexander1136]

XxDeonxX wrote...

So the mages have pretty much been pretty much under the chantrys thumb locked in their towers (or at least open magic has been banned) since 1.1 Divine.. It is now 9.40 Dragon, the mages began their rebellion from the circles in 9.37 dragon... So Why did it take a whole 937 years for them to get fed up? Why? How? did it take so long. I mean.. thats almost a millenium!! What have they been doing all this time? Why were they under chantry authority for soo long? I mean they have gone through what? 18-19 annulments and it took that many for them to care? I mean the way "Sister Nightingale" talks it seems like the mages would have taken action even without anders.. probably would have just taken longer I guess, But yeah with that new fraternatie and the cumberland events.. But why did it take them 937 years before they decided they'd had enough? I still cant get over how long that is.

they are not real you know..

[Deztyn]

AlexXIV wrote...

Deztyn wrote...

Macgarnickle wrote...
One abomination isn't that much of a fight.

That's more gameplay than canon too.

Canon is one abomination is Connor.

And even Connor could be saved without killing him.

Doubt that's much consolation to the people of Redcliffe. "Your friends and family are dead, but the Arl's son was saved in the end!"

Point stands. Abominations are very dangerous when talking about lore and not game mechanics. In the story Kirkwall is still infested.

[Statulos]

Ballistic714 wrote...

Statulos wrote...

Think for a second: how long did the Roman Empire lasted till slavery was banned? And think for a second, how long did it take to get slavery completely removed and globally considered as something loathsome?

^ This. Good point sir. Obviously this is a game and slavery was a real problem throughout human history... but the thought process is similar. People will go along with the system for countless years until enough people start standing up for what is right.

I will not go for the moral ground in this case. Slavery in Rome become meaningless due to the ruralization of the empire. Combine that with christianity and serfdom is born. Sometimes institutions become meaningless due to changing conditions.

Drawing on history, this mage uprising sounds more like Luther and Calvin (well, and many others such as Hoffmann).

[Noatz]

The Angry One wrote...

Noatz wrote...

That doesn't change the circumstances she used to justify invoking it in the first place - namely Anders.

So nobody would speculate that maybe the blood mage necromancer crazy off his rocker First Enchanter was conspiring with the abomination to launch a terrorist attack?
Yes that isn't true, but nobody in all Thedas would look at the information and think maybe it was justified?

You have to judge decisions accounting for the information available to whoever made it at the time. Meredith did not know about Orsino's blood magic full stop irrespective of any possible alliance with Anders, if she had she would have invoked the rite earlier.

What everyone in Thedas sees is a zealot ordering an indiscriminate culling off of faulty justification.

[loudent3]

Ixalmaris wrote...

I would broaden the question and ask "what was everyone doing 937 years long"?
I mean look how far the world evolved in 1 millenium. And in DA2? Like many other fantasy worlds its in a permanent state of medivalism...

Actually the explosion of change happened in the last 100 years or so with minor changes happening in the last 500 . We were stuck in  "medivalism" for several mellenium. You can see in their building and especially their ships that the world is fairly advanced, all things considered.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Angry One wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

They did rebel. It's called Tevinter.

That wasn't a rebellion. They slowly took over the Chantry until they had total control and gave the finger to the Divine.

It still took them centuries to do it.

[Lithuasil]

loudent3 wrote...
You can see in their building and especially their ships that the world is fairly advanced, all things considered.

Are we talking about the same ships? Because everything I saw in Kirkwall, looked like someone thought he'd build bathtubs for Qunari :|

[PantheraOnca]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]Deztyn wrote...

[quote]Macgarnickle wrote...
One abomination isn't that much of a fight.
[/quote]

That's more gameplay than canon too.

Canon is one abomination is Connor.[/quote]
And even Connor could be saved without killing him.[/quote]

[/quote]

Why didn't we use that ritual with Anders. Anders HAD to have heard about it from the warden.

[ydaraishy]

XxDeonxX wrote...

So the mages have pretty much been pretty much under the chantrys thumb locked in their towers (or at least open magic has been banned) since 1.1 Divine.. It is now 9.40 Dragon, the mages began their rebellion from the circles in 9.37 dragon... So Why did it take a whole 937 years for them to get fed up? Why? How? did it take so long. I mean.. thats almost a millenium!! What have they been doing all this time? Why were they under chantry authority for soo long? I mean they have gone through what? 18-19 annulments and it took that many for them to care? I mean the way "Sister Nightingale" talks it seems like the mages would have taken action even without anders.. probably would have just taken longer I guess, But yeah with that new fraternatie and the cumberland events.. But why did it take them 937 years before they decided they'd had enough? I still cant get over how long that is.

Simple answer: history is told by the victors.