26 réponses à ce sujet

[Nial Black-Knee]

So whats up with the elves starting with mandatiory 14 willpower?

I know it's not a racial thing because elven warriors start with 12 willpower. Those 2 points would be better served somewhere else. Like DEX!! Why such a high willpower? Human rogues don't start that high either, so it's not a all Rogue thing. Why hamstring elves in a class that they should be especialy well suited for?

Nial

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:20 .

[goat_fab]

Willpower = Stamina. I'm not sure how good DA:Journeys is as a comparison, but our abilities can cost quite a bit of stamina. High willpower = quicker fights.

[Nial Black-Knee]

WhiteRaevan wrote...

Willpower = Stamina. I'm not sure how good DA:Journeys is as a comparison, but our abilities can cost quite a bit of stamina. High willpower = quicker fights.

*nod* Agreed about stamina.  But what is the basis of the point allotment. If it's not racial, and it's not a prereq for all rogues? Then it's just and arbritrary thing and thats foolish. Better to let the player decide where he/she wants those points to go. This way they are saying that willpower is equal to cunning and dex to a rogue. And I find that hard to agree with.

[goat_fab]

Who knows? Maybe it's a bug. How're we supposed to know Biowares intentions?

Modifié par WhiteRaevan, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:42 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

WhiteRaevan wrote...
Who knows? Maybe it's a bug. How're we supposed to know Biowares intentions?

Thats why I posted about it. What is the reason? In the big scheme of things 2 points may not seem like alot. But I hate arbitrary rules that have no basis in fact or logic. If it's racial then ALL elven characters should have 14 willpower. If it's class based? All rogues should have +2 to their starting willpower attribute, which as I said prior would in the elf rogue's case make willpower as critical to the class as cunning and dex. This is just foolish, with little basis in fact. In the description of willpower, it gives the stamina question equal wieght for warriors as it does for rogues. Which would seem to imply that it is a secondary stat for both. Yet, 14 willpower is the same as the rogues cunning and dex stats, which are considered the 2 prime stats of the class.

[syren1987]

Its not a bug, all elves get a +2 to will and all rogues get +2 will so they are meant to have 14 to start.

Elves get +2 will and magic, and Rogues get +2 will, +4 dex and +4 cunning to start.
All stats start at 10 and get 4 points from race and 10 points from class bonuses.

So an elf rogue will start with 14 will and a human or dwarf rogue will start with 12 will, since nether gets a will bonus as a racial trait but get a +2 from being a rogue.

Modifié par syren1987, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:03 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

syren1987 wrote...

Its not a bug, all elves get a +2 to will and all rogues get +2 will so they are meant to have 14 to start.

Elves get +2 will and magic, and Rogues get +2 will, +4 dex and +4 cunning to start.

Ok, I can see where an elven rogue gets the 14. But in my opinion it makes a starting elven rogue less proficient than a human rogue. Which just seems wrong to me. In a few levels you could certainly make up for it if you so chose. Heck a human rogue starts out with 15s in cunning and dex. Am I the only one that thinks thats ### backwards?

[VaxiusStorn]

Why would an elven rogue be less proficient?



Willpower gives you more stamina, and stamina fuels the rogues combat abilities. No stamina means no power swing with your 2 hander, no pin point shot with your bow, and no double strike with your daggers. Willpower is an attribute that every class uses. It is very important to rogues, mages, and warriors. Mage + willpower = mana, and Rogue/Warrior + willpower = stamina. It's a very important ability stat.

[syren1987]

1 or 2 points in a attribute isnt a big of a change in dragon age, like in a d&d game. Your chacters gets 3 new points for attributes at each level up.

Also all attributes are useful for all classes

Modifié par syren1987, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

VaxiusStorn wrote...

Why would an elven rogue be less proficient?

Willpower gives you more stamina, and stamina fuels the rogues combat abilities. No stamina means no power swing with your 2 hander, no pin point shot with your bow, and no double strike with your daggers. Willpower is an attribute that every class uses. It is very important to rogues, mages, and warriors. Mage + willpower = mana, and Rogue/Warrior + willpower = stamina. It's a very important ability stat.

Yes, it 's equaly important to all class ecept the mage, who it is very important to. But are you saying that willpower is equal to the rogues primary stats of dex and cunning? By that logic it would be as important as STR and CON to a warrior. Is that what your saying?

And should a human rogue start with a better DEX than an Elvish rogue? Im just curious. Because unless humans in this world are naturaly more dextrous than elves? It dosen't add up.

[soteria]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

syren1987 wrote...

Its not a bug, all elves get a +2 to will and all rogues get +2 will so they are meant to have 14 to start.

Elves get +2 will and magic, and Rogues get +2 will, +4 dex and +4 cunning to start.

Ok, I can see where an elven rogue gets the 14. But in my opinion it makes a starting elven rogue less proficient than a human rogue. Which just seems wrong to me. In a few levels you could certainly make up for it if you so chose. Heck a human rogue starts out with 15s in cunning and dex. Am I the only one that thinks thats ### backwards?

Chris Priestly's rogue. His second highest stat at lvl 22 is willpower.  Be glad you get a lot of it.

Modifié par soteria, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:30 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

First off, being the most powerfull character is not that important to me. A world that makes sense and classes that are based on logical deduction do make a difference to me.

So I'll ask the same question. Should the human race be more dextrous than the elven race? If a dev. comes on and says that in this world thats the way it is. Hey cool. But that is not how it is or has been in every bit of literature and games that I am aware of to this point. But as I always say in situations like this. It is what it is.

[syren1987]

Once again 1 point isnt a major advantage or even a minor one, and why should elves have the higher dex, DA:O elves are not the noble, nature connected, keen senses d&d or lotr's elves.

Modifié par syren1987, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:35 .

[VaxiusStorn]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

VaxiusStorn wrote...

Why would an elven rogue be less proficient?

Willpower gives you more stamina, and stamina fuels the rogues combat abilities. No stamina means no power swing with your 2 hander, no pin point shot with your bow, and no double strike with your daggers. Willpower is an attribute that every class uses. It is very important to rogues, mages, and warriors. Mage + willpower = mana, and Rogue/Warrior + willpower = stamina. It's a very important ability stat.

Yes, it 's equaly important to all class ecept the mage, who it is very important to. But are you saying that willpower is equal to the rogues primary stats of dex and cunning? By that logic it would be as important as STR and CON to a warrior. Is that what your saying?

And should a human rogue start with a better DEX than an Elvish rogue? Im just curious. Because unless humans in this world are naturaly more dextrous than elves? It dosen't add up.

Nope the rogue is a class that has 3 major stats.  like the paladin from D&D, who usually requires decents str, decent wis, and decent charisma.  I dont disagree that dex and cunning are possibly more important, but willpower is a necessity for anyclass.  Seems like the rogue is alot like the paladin and doesnt really have a dump stat, and thats just because magic isnt applicable to them.   Elves in most fantasy lore have some form of magic resistance as well, which means willpower makes sense once again.  I think it comes down to balancing the 3 races. 

I understand your point, but at the same time I think that starting with more willpower could make the Elf rogue have a easier start than his human counterpart.  Where as the human may be more dexterous by the end game.  I think the elves will make the best rogues personally, but i guess we are looking at the issue from different viewpoints. 

In terms of which race should have the higher dex... I understand what you are saying, but unlike rogues in most other games it seems Biowares rogues are a little more versitile.  Most games don't allow rogues in heavy armor right off the bat.  3.5 D&D requires rogues to either feat into heavy armor, or multiclass to get it... and even then they have massive penalties.  I think we may have to agree to disagree on the subject tho;)

[Nial Black-Knee]

syren1987 wrote...

Once again 1 point isnt a major advantage or even a minor one, and why should elves have the higher dex, DA:O elves are not the noble, nature connected, keen senses d&d or lotr's elves.

LOL, you are correct. Even a dwarf starts off with a 15 dex. Now that is just incredible. It seems there are no differences between the races when it comes to starting dex. A short squat dwarf is just as dextrous ( actualy more so) as a lithe beanpole elf. This sort of logic just astounds me.

And dude, it's never been all about the points. It's about common sense and logic.

It would seem to me that BW was more concerned with being different than being logical.

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:52 .

[syren1987]

Just cause your skinny doesnt mean youre not clumsy(Know quite a few people who prove this) or can hit a bullseye, and i could give reasons why dwarfs have high dex,but  you could give just as good a reason for why elves should have high dex, since the defineiton of dex is broad and includes good hand eye coordination, flexibility, skilled with ones hands, to graceful movement. Just think of it as Dwarfs are more naturally physicaly gifted, while elves have higher mental focus naturally. Since this is basily what bioware decided.

Modifié par syren1987, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:07 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

Obviously you are correct and in this world elves are the least dextrous of the three playable races. *shrug*

While I don't agree, I didn't make the game, so I'll just say again, "It is what it is"

[syren1987]

I'd prefer it if there wasnt any racial bonuses since each race whould have people of all shapes and sizes from clumsy elves to smart but physicaly weak dwarfs, i can understand class bonuses since during combat training for a warrior you'd be worked into shape and be trained to have quick reactions etc.

Modifié par syren1987, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:25 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

syren1987 wrote...

I'd prefer it if there wasnt any racial bonuses since each race whould have people of all shapes and sizes from clumsy elves to weak dwarfs, i can understand class bonuses since during combat trainng for a warrior you'd be worked into shape and be trained to have quick reactions etc.

Id actually find that preferable as well. Take away all race bonuses and give us 10 pts to assign instead of 5. Then at least I could create the kind of starting character I wanted. 

[syren1987]

True , Ill prob play as a elf rogue for my first character and im fine with the +2 will but i would rather the +2 magic be used on a differnt attribute. 

Modifié par syren1987, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:33 .

[Nial Black-Knee]

I have a human warrior, human rogue, and an elf rogue made up. Was going to start with warrior, then elf rogue, but I think I'll switch and do the human rogue first.

Yeah, the elf bonuses really lean the race towards MUs. But as you have said, with all the Attribute points they give out in this game it shouldn't make too much difference in the long run.

Modifié par Nial Black-Knee, 30 octobre 2009 - 12:53 .

[Tyrax Lightning]

Go figure humans having 1 point of racial Magic bonus as well, seeming as how we aren't the brightest of species in this type of game.



As for elves, Potion stock up, cause Magic attribute is said to have an effect on their effectiveness.

[Nial Black-Knee]

That is one thing Im not sure of. Which is how plentful healing is going to be. We wont know how easy it will be to get by without a healer in the party. I really don't have an interest in Wynne. So I hope there is suficient healing available. Whether it be potions or whatever.

[VaxiusStorn]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...

That is one thing Im not sure of. Which is how plentful healing is going to be. We wont know how easy it will be to get by without a healer in the party. I really don't have an interest in Wynne. So I hope there is suficient healing available. Whether it be potions or whatever.

I find it kinda ironic myself that the squishiest class, that is the only class that has healing abilities, will be the class that potions, and whatever other kind of healing/buffing salves, will affect the most.  The other classes will be the ones that need the potions lol.  It just seems a bit odd i guess.

[Koralis]

Nial Black-Knee wrote...
Yes, it 's equaly important to all class ecept the mage, who it is very important to. But are you saying that willpower is equal to the rogues primary stats of dex and cunning? By that logic it would be as important as STR and CON to a warrior. Is that what your saying?

Important, but slightly less so because warriors get more stamina "for free" every level than rogues do.

That's part of the tradeoff of Rogues getting more skills than warriors.

And should a human rogue start with a better DEX than an Elvish rogue? Im just curious. Because unless humans in this world are naturaly more dextrous than elves? It dosen't add up.

They are.  Surprise!