27 réponses à ce sujet

[AndreaDraco]

... is Meredith's lyrium-infused sword and the effect it's having on her mind.

Let me explain and ask for your pardon if this topic has already been discussed.

I had a lot of reservations about DA2 but then, when I finally played it, I found myself really engrossed by the story, the characters and the character interaction. I'd go as far as saying that DA2's story is better than the first one because, without a clear-cut evil to fight like the Archdemon was, it left more space for the moral ambiguity that has always been the series' strongest point. In Awakening, I loved how nuanced the Architect was and DA2 was even better, because there's no clear good and no clear evil, everything's gray and moral relativism seems to be the story's main them, especially thanks to the writing of the companions.

And that's why I didn't like Meredith's sword and the hints that it was the Ancient Idol that poisoned her mind much like it did Bartrand's. Somehow, knowing that the idol was behind her growing paranoia and madness lessened my emotional involvement against her, whereas - before knowing about the sword, when I thought Meredith's extremist views were only human in nature - I was more intrigued by her, even if I sided with the mages for the reasons I explained in other threads, especially the Anders' ones.

Bottom line: when I discovered that an ancient evil was behind her very modern evil, I was a little disappointed. It would have been a much more powerful human drama, without the Idol involvement.

What do you guys think about it? Do you think that, Idol or no Idol, Meredith would have still done what she did? Do you think that without the Idol poisoning her mind, she would have still oppressed the mages like she did? Or it was all the Idol, in you opinion?

[Lithuasil]

Could have been handled better - but problem is, if the woman actually *was* that evil, there'd be a clear cut between a good and an evil choice at the end. Also, there'd be no excuse to give her superpowers then, and as the Arishok has proven, the combat system in place doesn't work when bosses don't have superpowers.

[Maria Caliban]

I agree.

The magical sword that alters her mind didn't bother me. Justice also altered Ander's mind. What bothers me is the magical sword that makes you barking mad. The Arishok didn't need to go mad to murder the Viscount. Sister Patrice and her Templar buddy didn't need to go mad to murder the qunari delegates and Seamas.

People are able to be horrible monsters without magical, mind devouring do-dads.

Lithuasil wrote...

Could have been handled better - but problem is, if the woman actually *was* that evil, there'd be a clear cut between a good and an evil choice at the end. Also, there'd be no excuse to give her superpowers then, and as the Arishok has proven, the combat system in place doesn't work when bosses don't have superpowers.

Was what evil? My saintly mage ended up siding with the Templars. After seven years within Kirkwall, 'nuke it from orbit' seems to be a viable strategy.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 mars 2011 - 03:05 .

[Ruben Thomas]

I didn't want to side with Meredith or Orsino, but the game forced me so, but that's because I'm playing as Hawke not my own character. Which is okay

I liked the story overall.

Edit: removed my stupid babbel.

Modifié par Ruben Thomas, 29 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[caradoc2000]

I was disappointed that Hawke didn't get a lyrium-powered lightsaber.

[highcastle]

Lithuasil wrote...

Could have been handled better - but problem is, if the woman actually *was* that evil, there'd be a clear cut between a good and an evil choice at the end.

This. By giving Meredith the justification of the idol's poisoning, she becomes more tragic and thus more sympathetic. Like Anders, she wasn't fully in control of her faculties at the time. It made me more inclined to sympathize with her, instead of less.

The thing with the ending choice is that Meredith makes no logical sense. She calls for the Right because Anders blew up the Chantry. She's blaming other mages--those not even affiliated with the true perpetrator--for Anders' actions. It's a logical fallacy and it destroys any credibility she may have once had with me. It's like the villain who's betrayed by his lieutenant, so he murders some innocent mook instead. But knowing her thinking was warped by the idol, I can almost understand her. At least on a meta level. In-game, my Hawkes are always going to think she's crazy until the reveal (after which she'll still be crazy, but perhaps a little sympathetic too).

[Mnemnosyne]

Keep in mind that even before Hawke came to Kirkwall, Meredith was extreme and more oppressive than most Knight-Commanders, apparently. The idol seemed to amplify that and take it to extremes, but it didn't seem to do much but give her a push toward what she wanted to do anyway.

She was also already breaking the rules before the idol even came into the picture. Karl is the most immediately obvious example, a full fledged mage or enchanter who had long since passed his Harrowing, made Tranquil, even though Chantry rules strictly forbid a mage that passes their Harrowing from being made Tranquil, and this was before the Deep Roads expedition even took place. And Anders only showed up in Kirkwall because Karl wrote to him about Meredith's abuses, how the mages were being locked up in their cells, etc.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I think they could have opened Act Three with finding out more about the sword. Was the idol connected to the old gods? Was the sword used by the maker at one time? Why was it in deep roads and seemed to be from a time before Dwarves? Lack of opportunity for more quest and clues to the final battle.

[AndreaDraco]

Maria Caliban wrote...
People are able to be horrible monsters without magical, mind devouring do-dads.
 

This.

And no, I don't think that, without the sword, she would have been clear-cut evil. Even if I sided with the mages, I could understand her fear and distrust. Like Anders himself, my Mage Hawke harbored a deep hatred for Blood Magic, because mind control destroys other people's freedom -- much like Meredith was doing with the mages. It was her oppression that drove them to blood magic (at least many of them) and it was their reaction that, in turn, worsened her fear and mistrust.

This is a human dynamic. The mind-poisoning sword removes this aspect, at least partially.

[Mnemnosyne]

Wouldn't really have made sense. Varric was looking into it after you dealt with Bartrand, but how much can he really find out about something so old that even the Memories make no mention of it? It certainly didn't seem important enough to Hawke to go back to that thaig and learn more about it. It seemed like a dangerous and cursed magic thing, but of no greater significance than any of a thousand other cursed items that probably exist somewhere in Thedas.

The Grey Wardens clearly saw some significance to it, hence Nathaniel's expedition down there, but they're not known for sharing information so it makes perfect sense that Hawke wouldn't learn anything more throughout the course of the game.

I'm sure it will be expanded on in DLC or in DA3. The primeval thaig is clearly of great significance, and it's going to come up again. I like the fact that it wasn't really explored because Hawke really didn't seem like she would have put much significance into it. If it had been explored, I suspect it would have felt somewhat forced.

[Rifneno]

I'm unconvinced that the sword did poison her mind.  The idol has power, yes, but it's never really explained.  Not just its origins but also its effects.  Is a sentient and malevolent entity?  Or does it blindly warp one's minds?  If so, why did it have such a vastly different effect on Meredith than on Bartrand?  They both did some horrible stuff after aquiring it but the acts themselves were very different.  Meredith had some serious issues but she was quite lucid.  Bartrand would be called tall before he'd be called lucid, he was just raving mad.

Here's an off the wall idea.  What if the idol wasn't inherently evil?  Maybe it amplifies the energy or emotion around it.  Being surrounded by mindless dwarf wraiths eating lyrium would drive Bartrand to doing what he did, and being in the Gallows would drive Meredith to what she did.  I'm not saying I think this is a likely scenario, I'm just saying we don't really know the part the idol played with Meredith aside from her crazy slave statue powers.

[The Angry One]

All I want to know is why I can't make my lyrium sword glow red.. well I'm sure some modder better than me will figure that one out.

As for the story.. it was a plotfail, as was Orsino becoming a Harvester. There's no reason why any of Meredith's actions had to be attributed to the evil sword other than making a sudden surprise boss fight.

[Asdara]

On a recent play I noticed something about her sword: she doesn't have it when she fights with the Qunari at the end of Act 2 - the first time you see her with the sword is the conflict in the square at the start of Act 3.

So, we could theorize that she bought the idol because it was obviously magical (and therefore dangerous) and put it away for safekeeping - the price she paid for it was notably high and that leads me to believe Chantry funds may have been used, because she doesn't seem like the type to have a large disposable income, at least not on a grand scale. She was always on the "side of caution" with the mages, and perhaps turning to the obvious power of the idol's material became a necessary evil for her to make herself equal to the challenge the mages were becoming - in her own mind.

She probably worked it out for herself that the Maker had put such a tool in her hand to be used for his will at a critical time, and over time her sense of balance between fairness and firmness was eroded by whatever "song" the idol was putting out.

[The Angry One]

I'm unclear on this, did the idol morph into a sword on it's own or was the material used to make a sword?
If the latter then it would've taken time to forge the sword and it might not have been ready.

[Lithuasil]

I'm unclear on the general state of aggregate that lyrium has in the first place. Something you can fill in potions must be rather hard to forge (or soft really), while something hard enough to cut people up is probably rather unhealthy to consume :|

[Mnemnosyne]

Well to a significant degree I can see where the sword had significance. Meredith was not a stupid woman, and without the sword influencing her it's very likely she would have managed to keep the situation under control for years to come. She would have continued to be increasingly oppressive, but nowhere near as openly and at a much slower pace so as to not incite the kind of revolt she incited. I can fully buy the sword making her increasingly reckless. And I doubt she would have tried to rule the city openly without that recklessness, she would rather have had someone like Dumar who she felt she could push around when she wanted to.

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

I'm unclear on the general state of aggregate that lyrium has in the first place. Something you can fill in potions must be rather hard to forge (or soft really), while something hard enough to cut people up is probably rather unhealthy to consume :|

It seemed like the lyrium was embedded into the blade rather than being the blade itself which has this weird yellowy-boney texture.

But hey it's magic so it can be anything it wants if you're lazy.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[Addai]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
People are able to be horrible monsters without magical, mind devouring do-dads.
 

This.

And no, I don't think that, without the sword, she would have been clear-cut evil. Even if I sided with the mages, I could understand her fear and distrust. Like Anders himself, my Mage Hawke harbored a deep hatred for Blood Magic, because mind control destroys other people's freedom -- much like Meredith was doing with the mages. It was her oppression that drove them to blood magic (at least many of them) and it was their reaction that, in turn, worsened her fear and mistrust.

This is a human dynamic. The mind-poisoning sword removes this aspect, at least partially.

I don't think it removes it.  It supercharges it and allows her to be the end boss, but otherwise the same dynamic would have played itself out even without the idol IMO.  Meredith is sympathetic not only because her mind has been affected but because she has seen the results of unconstrained mages and because she's trying to keep order in a city with an ineffectual ruler and trying to be mage police in an area that's sitting on a hellmouth.

The lyrium sword is like a chemical or biological weapon.  It still takes a military or political leader who's either corrupt or desperate or both to resort to such means.  It's much the same dynamic as the mage who resorts to blood magic and demons when they're either power hungry or have their backs against the wall.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[Lithuasil]

Why did meredith call it "pure lyrium taken from the deep roads" then? I'd assume having lyrium warding runes on your doors and equipment would be pretty much standard procedure among templars

[TheBlackBaron]

Meredith really actually just being that hardcore and Orsino having better justification for breaking out the blood magic (on the fly idea for a mage support ending - Orsino and Hawke split up and Orsino really is forced into a corner where he has to use it, instead of inexplicably going emo after the party wipes the floor with the Templar first wave) would have gone a long way to making Act III work better.

Considering the corruption rate in that hellhole of a Circle, I highly doubt Meredith would be viewed as less sympathetic than if she had ****ing Frostmourne.

[Casuist]

It was Bartrand who betrayed you and his brother and left you to die in the deep roads. It was Meredith who chose to oppress the mages. The idol simply pushed their negative character traits to further extremes. I don't have much sympathy for either of them.

[AndreaDraco]

Maybe you guys are right and the idol only enhances what's already there, but the actual impression I got from the cutscene - with what Varric says and what your journal says afterwards - was that the sword was actually the one to blame.

[Camenae]

I thought the sword was completely unnecessary. Her motivations were already plenty clear. But I get that the sword needs to be there to make the final boss fight flashy enough.

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't know that I'd say the idol had anything at all to do with Bartrand's betrayal in the Deep Roads. I think that was all him. He'd been holding the idol for all of 5 seconds before he decided to do that, and he'd been acting weird since the moment we got to the thaig.

[zeypher]

i think the idol heightens ones insecurities and fears to the level of extreme paranoia. well thats what i gathered by seeing how it affected bartrand and meridth