451 réponses à ce sujet

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Also what kind of a fan posts in official arrival feebdack thread that dlc is bad because there is no vs ? Seriously it had been said by one of devs there won't be vs in arrival because he or she will play bigger part in ME3. Still, people got their hopes up and almost 7 pages total in offical feedback thread are filled with negative opinions because of no vs in dlc. It would be nice to see vs after horizon, but come on. Flaming dlc because of no vs ? That's sick. Just in case I'm not Tali, Wrex, Liara or VS fan. I just treat all those characters like normal part of the game. They're not important to me.

[Estelindis]

Tazzmission wrote...

people say they are fans but i wonder if they truley are. if people were true fans than they should take what they get and give an honest clean opinion on it and that includes calling people hacks and honestly i want fans to be more aware of how they interpret a interview with a bioware developer. iadmit arrival was short but i loved it for its tribute to mass effect 1 wich people wanted and yet its the same thing, bioware sold out to shooter fans or its the typicall they promised ash/kaiden dlc when in fact they never said that.

I think that if we're interested enough in Mass Effect to post about it on the developers' forums then we're fans.  Of course, fans can be the best and worst critics of any given work.  But at this stage I think Bioware are well-accustomed to inspiring a wide range of different reactions from those who play their games, whether thinking or uncritical, enthusiastic or dismissive.  All we can do as individuals is try to be good fans who think critically ourselves.  We can't really force anyone else to change their behaviour or approach to the game, only persuade them.

We're all aware that Bioware didn't promise to include Ashley or Kaidan in DLC.  However, Arrival seemed like the ideal DLC in which to include them if any additional content for them was going to be provided anywhere, and based on the disparity between how they were treated and how other LIs and ME1 characters were treated (particularly Liara) it wasn't totally irrational or unbelievable that Bioware might have intended to make up for that somewhere with DLC (and that, perhaps, they weren't publicising that fact due to not wishing to spoil the plot). 

Now that Arrival has been released, of course, it is utterly clear that the place where VS plot development will occur will be ME3.  But naturally those who were hoping for something sooner now feel disappointed.  Anyone who did not have such hopes may find these feelings difficult to share, but hopefully, once explained, they are not entirely impossible to understand.  However, if you (or anyone else reading my post) still finds these hopes and feelings repugnant, all I can say is that time will pass and VS fans will be able to get over the disappointment and focus on ME3 soon enough. 

Yes: threads about the VS will pop up on the forums frequently enough, but on any board you're going to have people who don't search for existing topics (hopefully not so much now that the search feature is back - I could've sworn it was gone for a fair while).  While those threads may annoy you, you don't have to read them.  I realise it's an imperfect solution, but we're all imperfect ourselves anyway.  ;-)

Modifié par Estelindis, 30 mars 2011 - 10:08 .

[TwistedComplex]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

For those who wanted to see the "we value all romances" quote, I believe it was Jesse Houston who said this during LoTSB.

you do realise that they have tor and me3 this year to release right? i love how these vs fans make it sound like this is more important than 2 other full games. id love and pay to see how these vs fans would bring this out wile juggling fan demands and two game titles that are scheduled for a 2011 release... seriously quit the fn b*tching and quit getting your damn hopes up. lets be real these fans  read something they wanted to believe and yet when it didnt happen they pissed themselves and attack nasty agaisnt the devs.

Tazz who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't expect when I'm told all romances are treated equally and then they aren't? seriously who are you to tell me how to think? No one that's who.

Wow, so because you have to wait for ME3, the VS isn't treated equaly?

I guess because i have to wait to kill the reapers in ME3, Bioware doesn't care about the repear story anymore

[Tazzmission]

Estelindis wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

people say they are fans but i wonder if they truley are. if people were true fans than they should take what they get and give an honest clean opinion on it and that includes calling people hacks and honestly i want fans to be more aware of how they interpret a interview with a bioware developer. iadmit arrival was short but i loved it for its tribute to mass effect 1 wich people wanted and yet its the same thing, bioware sold out to shooter fans or its the typicall they promised ash/kaiden dlc when in fact they never said that.

I think that if we're interested enough in Mass Effect to post about it on the developers' forums then we're fans.  Of course, fans can be the best and worst critics of any given work.  But at this stage I think Bioware are well-accustomed to inspiring a wide range of different reactions from those who play their games, whether thinking or uncritical, enthusiastic or dismissive.  All we can do as individuals is try to be good fans who think critically ourselves.  We can't really force anyone else to change their behaviour or approach to the game, only persuade them.

We're all aware that Bioware didn't promise to include Ashley or Kaidan in DLC.  However, Arrival seemed like the ideal DLC in which to include them if any additional content for them was going to be provided anywhere, and based on the disparity between how they were treated and how other LIs and ME1 characters were treated (particularly Liara) it wasn't totally irrational or unbelievable that Bioware might have intended to make up for that somewhere with DLC (and that, perhaps, they weren't publicising that fact due to not wishing to spoil the plot). 

Now that Arrival has been released, of course, it is utterly clear that the place where VS plot development will occur will be ME3. 

you cant prove  that vs will be in me3 at all... if anything it may be another cameo like we got on horizon, and if im right and the vs fans start crying again then what? just let them  ****** and moan?

[Estelindis]

TwistedComplex wrote...

I guess because i have to wait to kill the reapers in ME3, Bioware doesn't care about the repear story anymore

Killing or otherwise stopping the Reapers is the culmination of the main Reaper storyline.  But the fact that this should happen in ME3 didn't need to prevent Bioware dealing with the other Reaper-related issues in ME2: deepening the crisis, getting Shepard to gather more evidence in order to persuade the galaxy to unite, getting people to research and develop anti-Reaper technology, etc.  (Now, some people claim that Bioware achieved this via the Collectors, while others say that Shepard ended ME2 in pretty much the same situation re. the Reapers as s/he did in ME1.  But that's really another debate for another thread.)

Similarly, the fact that the romantic relationships should culminate in ME3 doesn't stop them being developed in ME2.  In all honesty, what I expected of the relationship in ME2 (before ME2 actually came out, obviously) was a series of long distance communications between Shepard and his or her LI, via some vid calls.  Kaidan (or Ashley, or Liara) wouldn't be able to join Shepard's mission, but they could still talk at certain plot junctions - they could have disagreed violently and fought (particularly over Cerberus), or promised to support each other and be faithful no matter how bad things might get (probably in spite of the Cerberus factor).  I'm not saying that my idea of how things were going to be had any inherent merits, but I don't think that the fact that the relationship should reach its climax in ME3 should have caused its development to be almost totally halted in ME2.  (Of course, it does develop somewhat - wonderfully in the case of Liara, just not very much in the case of Ashley or Kaidan.)

Modifié par Estelindis, 30 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[James2912]

The OP went a little overboard lol, but that doesn't mean all VS fans are this way. The only way for Bioware to know what you want, is this forum or to write them letters. If VS fans were silent how would Bioware know what they want? If you want something you must speak up! If you don't want something speak up! That is what this forum is for! Lets all try and be civil guys. I don't want to accuse anybody of trolling but it seems like thats what is starting to go on here, people just want to start fights for the sake of fighting.

[Estelindis]

Tazzmission wrote...

you cant prove  that vs will be in me3 at all... if anything it may be another cameo like we got on horizon, and if im right and the vs fans start crying again then what? just let them  ****** and moan?

Um, no, of course I can't prove that Ashley or Kaidan will be in ME3 at all.  I don't possess anything that provides 100% incontestable proof.  However, there is a huge amount of evidence that points towards it, including numerous statements by Bioware that they'll play a pivotal role and have been kept for ME3 for this purpose. 

Now, the main issue that people who criticise fans of Ashley and Kaidan in this thread have presented is that we act as if Bioware had promised us VS DLC (and thus need to give us an "excuse" for the lack thereof), when Bioware in fact made no such promise whatsoever.  However, Bioware *have* promised us a big role for the Virmire Survivor in ME3.  So should we not complain if this promise is broken?  How are the two situations even remotely equivalent?

And please don't cloud the issue by using coloured language like "****** and moan," which basically portrays us as whiny, crying children.  There's no real reason to regard immature behaviour as desirable in any circumstance, so your question is nothing more than a rhetorical distraction (though your strong feelings may hide this from you).  If, instead, we rephrase your question - "If there's only a tiny appearance from the VS in ME3 and the VS fans complain, should we just allow them to do so?" - then the obvious answer is yes.  Because, as long as we treat each other with courtesy and respect, conflicting opinions on pretty much any issue on these boards is perfectly fine and to be expected.  I don't see why you'd ever want it to be otherwise, given that people naturally have different tastes and prefences and should be allowed to discuss them openly without fear of being attacked or ridiculed.

Modifié par Estelindis, 30 mars 2011 - 10:43 .

[ADLegend21]

TwistedComplex wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

For those who wanted to see the "we value all romances" quote, I believe it was Jesse Houston who said this during LoTSB.

you do realise that they have tor and me3 this year to release right? i love how these vs fans make it sound like this is more important than 2 other full games. id love and pay to see how these vs fans would bring this out wile juggling fan demands and two game titles that are scheduled for a 2011 release... seriously quit the fn b*tching and quit getting your damn hopes up. lets be real these fans  read something they wanted to believe and yet when it didnt happen they pissed themselves and attack nasty agaisnt the devs.

Tazz who are you to tell me what I should and shouldn't expect when I'm told all romances are treated equally and then they aren't? seriously who are you to tell me how to think? No one that's who.

Wow, so because you have to wait for ME3, the VS isn't treated equaly?

I guess because i have to wait to kill the reapers in ME3, Bioware doesn't care about the repear story anymore

you've obviously missed hte list of area's where the VS was short changed. REad it and then respond please since I don't feel like explaining it for the umpteenth time.

[wicked117]

James2912 wrote...

The OP went a little overboard lol, but that doesn't mean all VS fans are this way. The only way for Bioware to know what you want, is this forum or to write them letters. If VS fans were silent how would Bioware know what they want? If you want something you must speak up! If you don't want something speak up! That is what this forum is for! Lets all try and be civil guys. I don't want to accuse anybody of trolling but it seems like thats what is starting to go on here, people just want to start fights for the sake of fighting.

Agreed. I want to see the VS in ME 3 and I do think it will happen. It would have been awesome to see them in the dlc but hey they weren't  and that cant be changed so now just gotta let it be known that we do want them in ME 3. But seriously all the negativity back and forth is just exhausting. 

[Lee337]

Until ME3 is out, you can't judge which characters have been ignored or favoured. You can't judge equality on a game thats only 2/3 through.
The VS gets a photo on the desk the who way through still, and the scene just before the SM if you stay faithful.Kasumi doesn't comment on the VS, but why would she, theres not a lot of reason to.
I think the short changing stuff is being blown way out of proportion because hopes and emotions are getting to high. Bioware said ME3, so I will wait.

[ADLegend21]

Lee337 wrote...

Until ME3 is out, you can't judge which characters have been ignored or favoured. You can't judge equality on a game thats only 2/3 through.
The VS gets a photo on the desk the who way through still, and the scene just before the SM if you stay faithful.Kasumi doesn't comment on the VS, but why would she, theres not a lot of reason to.
I think the short changing stuff is being blown way out of proportion because hopes and emotions are getting to high. Bioware said ME3, so I will wait.

"I heard about Horizon. It must hav been hard to have a fight like that with someone you love, He'll/She'll come around with some time."
Is that so hard to put in the game?

[Estelindis]

The thing is, I'm never entirely sure of the extent to which Shepard's romance with Ashley or Kaidan is out in the open, especially when one considers the fraternisation angle. I had decided in advance that my Shepard would be discreet about her relationship with Kaidan (in which context I'd hardly mind no one commenting on it), but the choice to be open or discrete never ultimately comes up. Joker seems to know about the romance (as does Kelly, to a certain extent, though this actually seems to be romance-neutral to a certain degree). And then there's the picture in Shepard's quarters - we don't even see how it got there! I like to assume that Shepard added the picture to the frame herself, but we don't actually know.

On the whole, the situation is very confusing!

Modifié par Estelindis, 31 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[Malanek]

It's amusing that people are underwhelmed about hindering the reapers and in the prcoess being cast as a war criminal by destroying 300,000 batarians. And think that renewing a romance would have been more suitable DLC material? I just don't get these arguments. If this "crime" has any impact on the events in ME3 it was essential DLC.

[James2912]

Malanek999 wrote...

It's amusing that people are underwhelmed about hindering the reapers and in the prcoess being cast as a war criminal by destroying 300,000 batarians. And think that renewing a romance would have been more suitable DLC material? I just don't get these arguments. If this "crime" has any impact on the events in ME3 it was essential DLC.

Another post that has nothing to do with anything.

[Estelindis]

Malanek999 wrote...

It's amusing that people are underwhelmed about hindering the reapers and in the prcoess being cast as a war criminal by destroying 300,000 batarians. And think that renewing a romance would have been more suitable DLC material? I just don't get these arguments. If this "crime" has any impact on the events in ME3 it was essential DLC.

Hey, I think the Batarian deaths amounted to the most dramatic event of the whole DLC.  As a paragon player, I found it refreshing for Shepard to be in a situation where the only way to protect the galaxy was to commit a horrendous crime.  I've always found the paragon/renegade system a little lacking, as playing a paragon almost always seems to work out well no matter what, making the bloody sacrifices of a renegade seem stupid and unnecessary.  If anything, I would have liked the option for Shepard to refuse to carry out the Project in a dialogue choice, leading to the failure movie.  Because, much as I love paragon Shepard, not all paragon choices should work out.

I don't think people who wanted the VS to be involved wanted it instead of Batarian, Alliance, and Reaper elements, but in addition to those.  But when is this anything new?  Bioware fans always want more.  :-D

[ADLegend21]

Malanek999 wrote...

It's amusing that people are underwhelmed about hindering the reapers and in the prcoess being cast as a war criminal by destroying 300,000 batarians. And think that renewing a romance would have been more suitable DLC material? I just don't get these arguments. If this "crime" has any impact on the events in ME3 it was essential DLC.

It's amusing that you think this is ALL about the romance and should have been a dating mission. we're not trying to Change the mission, but include aa second person. have the VS take the fall with their old commander/lover. Have them advocate for Shepard with their own view of the project. Have them brought under the same charges as an accomplice, showing the Commander that they've got an ally in them who's willing to jeopardize their life for them. that's how you make up for the travesty of Horizon, not some stupid email. we're not denying the actions and their consequence, we're not the toruan councilor.

[Malanek]

Estelindis wrote...
I don't think people who wanted the VS to be involved wanted it instead of Batarian, Alliance, and Reaper elements, but in addition to those.  But when is this anything new?  Bioware fans always want more.  :-D

IMO that would be to lose focus on the plot of what was a small piece of DLC. This was a monumental point of the story. And I'm not just talking about guilt for Shepard. Relations between Batarians and Humanity were already tenuous. This should push them over the edge and change intergalatic stability. And then a thread pops up titled "What is Biowares excuse for the lack of VS in Arrival".

Edit: Adding the VS in would have been pure fan service at the expense of their own vision for the story.

Modifié par Malanek999, 31 mars 2011 - 12:34 .

[Estelindis]

Malanek999 wrote...

IMO that would be to lose focus on the plot of what was a small piece of DLC. This was a monumental point of the story. And I'm not just talking about guilt for Shepard. Relations between Batarians and Humanity were already tenuous. This should push them over the edge and change intergalatic stability. And then a thread pops up titled "What is Biowares excuse for the lack of VS in Arrival".

Personally, I think you're right.  Having played Arrival, I think it's best that the VS wasn't involved, mostly for the reasons you state.  But the topic in general is speaking to a certain fan frustration with lack of content for the VS, which I think is not entirely unreasonable.

[Bogsnot1]

[PrinceLionheart]

Estelindis wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

IMO that would be to lose focus on the plot of what was a small piece of DLC. This was a monumental point of the story. And I'm not just talking about guilt for Shepard. Relations between Batarians and Humanity were already tenuous. This should push them over the edge and change intergalatic stability. And then a thread pops up titled "What is Biowares excuse for the lack of VS in Arrival".

Personally, I think you're right.  Having played Arrival, I think it's best that the VS wasn't involved, mostly for the reasons you state.  But the topic in general is speaking to a certain fan frustration with lack of content for the VS, which I think is not entirely unreasonable.

Hell, I think a lot of this could've been avoided if Ashley/Kaidan had a dossier file in LoTSB. Instead, the only time they're referenced was when Liara said it sucks how they treated Shep. I'm past the raving stage, but I don't think VS fans have an "entitlement complex" by expecting a little more than what they got. 

[Quole]

Estelindis wrote...

Quole wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
what WAS promised was that all Mass Effect Love interests would be treated equally, while one has her own DLC with romance exclusive content while the other two Love interests only have an unavoidable arguement. Would you say that is the fair and equal treatment promised?

IF they promised it and didnt fulfill that promise then i agree, however I dont ever recall them doing so.
May I see a link to where a dev promised this?

Here you go:

Jesse Houston wrote...
BioWare values all of the romance options in the Mass Effect series as equally important. No matter who you choose to romance or whether you play male or female Shepard, each romance is equally  important to the story and outcome.

This is just one of many references that Bioware has made to the romances being equal.  Casey Hudson has also said that the reason for the reduced role of the ME1 LIs in ME2 was to keep them for ME3.  In addition, he said elsewhere that the three most important decisions in ME1 were who you romanced (if any), who you left to die on Virmire, and whether you let the Council die.  That's two out of three central choices related to Ashley and Kaidan (even if you chose to romance Liara, they were still options).  So for quite a while we've been told to sit tight and wait for ME3 - and, personally, I think we have reason to hope that the Virmire Survivor will have a stellar role in the final game.

The trouble is that the difference in the treatment of Liara in ME2 compared with Ashley and Kaidan has been somewhat jarring, and as time has gone on and we've seen more and more of this some of us have questioned whether Bioware is still committed to the characters.  After all, many of the interviews or posts talking about the equal treatment of LIs are somewhat old at this stage (many were taken from pre-ME2 PR).  Since then, we've had Kasumi mention Liara's relationship with Shepard, but not Ash or Kai's.  At the end of LotSB, you can tell Liara you're fighting for any of your LIs except Kaidan or Ashley; their only mention in the DLC is if Shepard says s/he's frustrated then Liara castigates them as short-sighted (great, more criticism of our already-beleaguered favourites!).  They don't even get a text dossier in the Shadow Broker's files.  The PS3 comic presents Liara in a far more positive light than the VS (it's particularly egregious in Kaidan's case, when a man three years older than Shepard and only one rank below him/her is described condescendingly as "a good kid").  Even ignoring things like Liara getting her own comics and DLC, changing these little touches (or absences thereof) could have made a huge difference to our perception of how these characters were being treated and bolstered our hopes for the future. 

Accordingly, what I'm thinking is that the relationship between Ashley or Kaidan and Shepard is supposed to be more fraught or ambiguous than the others.  As Shepard, you're not even sure what your status with them is anymore.  You have no way of communicating with them, and no one else in the universe even really seems to think there's anything between you.  All you have is hope and trust.  Yet, if you still keep their picture on your desk in spite of all that, you get a monumental payoff in ME3.  :-)  The only thing I don't really get is where this leaves people who befriended rather than romanced Ashley or Kaidan.  These people don't even get the post-Horizon email or the little pre-SM scene of looking at the photo.  So, in spite of a lot of our angst being based on the idea that "all romanceable characters should get equal treatment," in many ways I think the people worst off re. the VS are those who didn't romance them.

Goodness me, this was quite long.  :-D  I should probably keep my posts to the ME3 Ash/Kai suggestions thread from now on - anyone who wants to discuss how we'd like to see Kaidan / Ashley in ME3 should feel free to post there.  After all, Arrival is out and it's the last DLC.  We might have liked something with the VS, but we didn't get it, so there's little point in continuing to complain once our point has been made.  We just need to face the music, stay positive, and make constructive suggestions for future content.  :-)

... nowhere does it say that Bioware was going to treat them equally in ME2. If ME3 finishes and this is still the case then you might have an argument. As of now though, you dont.
They simply said that they value all of them equally, so you all interpret that in your own way. Was it not already stated that they were going to play a bigger role in ME3 to make up for this? Honestly, stop complaining.

[Estelindis]

Quole wrote...

... nowhere does it say that Bioware was going to treat them equally in ME2. If ME3 finishes and this is still the case then you might have an argument. As of now though, you dont.
They simply said that they value all of them equally, so you all interpret that in your own way. Was it not already stated that they were going to play a bigger role in ME3 to make up for this? Honestly, stop complaining.

I am not complaining, I am explaining.  Also, given that I have stated on multiple occasions in this thread that I look forward to seeing what Bioware does with the VS in ME3, your exhortation here is simply unnecessary.

[Quole]

Estelindis wrote...

Quole wrote...

... nowhere does it say that Bioware was going to treat them equally in ME2. If ME3 finishes and this is still the case then you might have an argument. As of now though, you dont.
They simply said that they value all of them equally, so you all interpret that in your own way. Was it not already stated that they were going to play a bigger role in ME3 to make up for this? Honestly, stop complaining.

I am not complaining, I am explaining.  Also, given that I have stated on multiple occasions in this thread that I look forward to seeing what Bioware does with the VS in ME3, your exhortation here is simply unnecessary.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Im not saying you specifically are complaining.
I meant most of the VS fans in this thread that I have talked to are.

Modifié par Quole, 31 mars 2011 - 12:55 .

[Estelindis]

Quole wrote...

Perhaps I should have been more clear.
Im not saying you specifically are complaining.
I meant most of the VS fans in this thread that I have talked to are.

Thank you for clarifying, as it did seem to me that you were addressing me personally.  :-) 

All the same, I hope it's possible for people to share different opinions (on this topic or any other) as long as it's done constructively.  People should be able to say that they hope for X or they think Y should have been done differently as long as they maintain respect for others.  Anyway, thank you for the discussion and happy gaming!

Modifié par Estelindis, 31 mars 2011 - 12:58 .