37 réponses à ce sujet

[nikeimizhong]

okay, i understand that if you side with orsino and fight against templars (i know you kill orsino anyway) but no matter, at the end many mages still survive, and may leave kirkwall and spread the word all around thedas.

BUT!

if you side with templars and cut through all the mages on your path( i know that you still kill meredith at the end)
still it means that templars took care of the situation, since cullen and many other templars are still alive at that point.

this is dragon age so i dont think they have news channel or internet for every part of thedas to instantly realize what has just happened in kikwall. so the question is, how the hell right after these events, both, mages and even templars rebeled against chantry?  and besides if its of such importance for balance of DA world, why dosent chantry or templars just invent some fake story about what happened and spread it, making a fake official government story for people to consume. since most of the mages are dead if you side with meredith, so it could of been done.

[LobselVith8]

Because if Hawke decided go side wih the templars, it showed the mages what the Templar Order was willing to do (as Varric says) and I would wager that killing every Circle mage for something no mage of the Circle had anything to do with would be an argument for emancipating the Circles from Chantry and templar control. We already know the meeting in Cumberland had a lot of support, and Wynne only advocated against it because she thought the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free. I guess killing the mages when they're innocent rubbed the majority of the Circle mages the wrong way.

[Forst1999]

I guess a thing like the use of the right of annulment doesn't go unnoticed. The increasing tension in Kirkwall was well known, and the events can't be covered by some fake story. The whole world looked on Kirkwall.
Maybe it took some time for the world to know what happened, but the story eventually got out. Remember that Cassandra and Varric chat 3 years later. So it might have needed some time for the story to spread.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because if Hawke decided go side wih the templars, it showed the mages what the Templar Order was willing to do (as Varric says) and I would wager that killing every Circle mage for something no mage of the Circle had anything to do with would be an argument for emancipating the Circles from Chantry and templar control. We already know the meeting in Cumberland had a lot of support, and Wynne only advocated against it because she thought the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free. I guess killing the mages when they're innocent rubbed the majority of the Circle mages the wrong way.

And yet the First Enchanter turning into the Blob and having been involved in blood magic and necromancy all along wouldn't make any of the Circles pause and consider?

Don't say nobody would know, there'd be witnesses and a search of his offices and living quarters would probably come up with a lot of incriminating stuff.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[nikeimizhong]

well, but neither mages or templars of kirkwall seemed "normal" to me, they were both bad **** crazy if compared to what mages and templars from ferelden were. Besides as i said, other circles cant instantly know what happened in kirkwall, chantry could of said that it was a big ass blood mage rebellion, ( similar to what happened ferelden mage tower) and that templars had no choice but to kill them,

[Lithuasil]

It sounded like a decent enough Idea at the time? :|

[Northern Sun]

If I were a Circle mage, I'd look at what happened at think: "An apostate mage did something bad and the Templar's response was to annul the Circle. Who's to say that the next time an apostate in my neighborhood does something bad, the Templars won't use it as an excuse to slaughter us like they did in Kirkwall?"

[Camenae]

I agree that news should have traveled slowly, so the apparent timeline of all the Circles immediatel rising up doesn't make much sense.

Magic? : /

[Russalka]

There was drama in the Fereldan Circle as well, regardless of the choices the Warden did.

Supposedly the Regent wanted to give them more liberty, but the Warden comes in and butchers them all or saves them from nearly being Annulled. Or, for example, the Warden him/herself is a mage and asks for them to have freedom.

There is already enough unrest and problems in this subject in the world. That Cumberland meeting was probably called in because of what happened in Ferelden. What happens in Kirkwall starts an avalanche of an already very unsteady ground.

[The Angry One]

Since Anders is still technically a Grey Warden, what was needed was Loghain to blame it all on a Grey Warden conspiracy!
This would've saved everyone, and possibly put Stroud on the chopping block. Everybody wins!

[Camenae]

OP, is your question "Why did the other circles rebel" or is it "How did they know so quickly that they have reason to rebel"? Or both?

[nikeimizhong]

Camenae wrote...

OP, is your question "Why did the other circles rebel" or is it "How did they know so quickly that they have reason to rebel"? Or both?

lol well, i guess both! but if i would put it all on the title of the thread like that , it would be one big ass title =P

[Volourn]

Probably the same reason that the ME is seeing a bunch of rebellions/protests right now in multiple countries. They see/hear others fighting for freedom and want it too - failure or not.

As for how they hear 'so quickly', I believe Varric is interviewed by Cass 3 years after the end of act 3 so there's been plenty of time for the news to spread.

[Lord Gremlin]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because if Hawke decided go side wih the templars, it showed the mages what the Templar Order was willing to do (as Varric says) and I would wager that killing every Circle mage for something no mage of the Circle had anything to do with would be an argument for emancipating the Circles from Chantry and templar control. We already know the meeting in Cumberland had a lot of support, and Wynne only advocated against it because she thought the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free. I guess killing the mages when they're innocent rubbed the majority of the Circle mages the wrong way.

And yet the First Enchanter turning into the Blob and having been involved in blood magic and necromancy all along wouldn't make any of the Circles pause and consider?

Don't say nobody would know, there'd be witnesses and a search of his offices and living quarters would probably come up with a lot of incriminating stuff.

Orsino was an idiot. People tend to "forget" such persons, when they belong to their organization. Also, most mages of Kirkwall left before he did his Harvester bullcrap (if you support mages).

[Camenae]

nikeimizhong wrote...

lol well, i guess both! but if i would put it all on the title of the thread like that , it would be one big ass title =P

Haha okay, I thought so but just making sure, so I don't accidentally derail your topic. 

And as to why they would rebel, I think there are a number of reasons--pre-emptive strike because they're afraid of the Templars invoking annulment everywhere, etc.--but whether they're good enough reasons is entirely someone's opinion. 

As to how in the world they knew so quickly...I have no idea  : /  I've wondered that myself.  You're right, there's no internet, no telephone, for communication all they had was snail mail (and, of course, word-of-mouth) as far as I can tell.  So...maybe...an Eluvian?  Some other kind of magic?  I really don't know...

[tanerb123]

because bioware didnt bother to create another ending.

[The Angry One]

Camenae wrote...

nikeimizhong wrote...

lol well, i guess both! but if i would put it all on the title of the thread like that , it would be one big ass title =P

Haha okay, I thought so but just making sure, so I don't accidentally derail your topic. 

And as to why they would rebel, I think there are a number of reasons--pre-emptive strike because they're afraid of the Templars invoking annulment everywhere, etc.--but whether they're good enough reasons is entirely someone's opinion. 

As to how in the world they knew so quickly...I have no idea  : /  I've wondered that myself.  You're right, there's no internet, no telephone, for communication all they had was snail mail (and, of course, word-of-mouth) as far as I can tell.  So...maybe...an Eluvian?  Some other kind of magic?  I really don't know...

The mages teleported.
Every mage in Kirkwall (except Hawke and co. of course) already gives the finger to the lore and zaps through time and space at will.

[Camenae]

You're right Angry One! I forgot all about the "gameplay =/= lore" band-aid for plot holes.

[nikeimizhong]

haha, well but we must also consider that probably other templars are not as insane as meredith was, they surely would listen the voice of reason, besides Irwing, the leader mage of the ferelden tower of magi, he was hardcore supporter of peaceful talks between mages and templars ( i am not sure if he is alive or dead by the time this takes place, due to an old age) Wynn as well, i dont think she ever will support violance ( though i dont know if she is alive either at this point O_o) and if you choose to kill anders and support the templars,

then i dont see why templars just cant make a fake story about big blood mage conspiracy among kirkwall circle of magi, and even point that orsino was one, and can just call him the leader of the rebellion.

[sylvanaerie]

The Angry One wrote...

Camenae wrote...

nikeimizhong wrote...

lol well, i guess both! but if i would put it all on the title of the thread like that , it would be one big ass title =P

Haha okay, I thought so but just making sure, so I don't accidentally derail your topic. 

And as to why they would rebel, I think there are a number of reasons--pre-emptive strike because they're afraid of the Templars invoking annulment everywhere, etc.--but whether they're good enough reasons is entirely someone's opinion. 

As to how in the world they knew so quickly...I have no idea  : /  I've wondered that myself.  You're right, there's no internet, no telephone, for communication all they had was snail mail (and, of course, word-of-mouth) as far as I can tell.  So...maybe...an Eluvian?  Some other kind of magic?  I really don't know...

The mages teleported.
Every mage in Kirkwall (except Hawke and co. of course) already gives the finger to the lore and zaps through time and space at will.

I KNEW IT!!!  It's all a conspiracy to keep the best magic from Hawke.  WIth the Kirkwall Circle annulled, Hawke won't have anyone left to teach him because the teleport spell seems keyed to something abominations and blood mages know.

[nikeimizhong]

sylvanaerie wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Camenae wrote...

nikeimizhong wrote...

lol well, i guess both! but if i would put it all on the title of the thread like that , it would be one big ass title =P

Haha okay, I thought so but just making sure, so I don't accidentally derail your topic. 

And as to why they would rebel, I think there are a number of reasons--pre-emptive strike because they're afraid of the Templars invoking annulment everywhere, etc.--but whether they're good enough reasons is entirely someone's opinion. 

As to how in the world they knew so quickly...I have no idea  : /  I've wondered that myself.  You're right, there's no internet, no telephone, for communication all they had was snail mail (and, of course, word-of-mouth) as far as I can tell.  So...maybe...an Eluvian?  Some other kind of magic?  I really don't know...

The mages teleported.
Every mage in Kirkwall (except Hawke and co. of course) already gives the finger to the lore and zaps through time and space at will.

I KNEW IT!!!  It's all a conspiracy to keep the best magic from Hawke.  WIth the Kirkwall Circle annulled, Hawke won't have anyone left to teach him because the teleport spell seems keyed to something abominations and blood mages know.

lol soooo true, that teleportation was a cheap move indeed XD probably was intended to make enemy mages more of a pain in the ass to kill, since two handed warrior just literally screw them up with bash, stun, and bash again XD,
but it creates plot holes of why if they can do that in the battle, cant they just teleport through mage tower walls...or maybe they can...since anders in awakening said that he escaped circle what? 7 timre or something? thats just god-damn-diculous

[Kenshen]

Blowing up a chantry and killing a grand cleric is big news and not everyone in Kirkwall would have died. Well ok maybe all the mages did but that isn't the point. It takes what 2 weeks for a boat ride to the other side and once the news started to spread it would go like a wild fire. And 3 years is a lot of time for the other circles to rise up and fight.

Also there is a templar rebellion going on and the chantry is in some serious hurt power wise because of it. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that all of this happens in that short timeframe since the build up for it has been going on for 900+ years.

[nikeimizhong]

aryon69 wrote...

Blowing up a chantry and killing a grand cleric is big news and not everyone in Kirkwall would have died. Well ok maybe all the mages did but that isn't the point. It takes what 2 weeks for a boat ride to the other side and once the news started to spread it would go like a wild fire. And 3 years is a lot of time for the other circles to rise up and fight.

Also there is a templar rebellion going on and the chantry is in some serious hurt power wise because of it. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that all of this happens in that short timeframe since the build up for it has been going on for 900+ years.

true not everyone in kirkwall died, but if you join templars and kill anders, you can just say that orsino planned it personally and he was allied with anders ( fake story for the masses, its not like citizens in kirkwall will trully know what and who caused the explosion of the chantry) and just spread that story out.

it can be proven that orsino and meredith both were totally nuts, it can be confirmed by cullen and your Carver( if you are mage) so both templars and mages of entire thedas will see that it was it was mutual mistake, and try to end the conflict somehow peacefuly , instead of both fractions going ape **** crazy and rebelling against everything at sight XD

[Kartikeya]

I think it's a combination of actual events and misinformation (which apparently spread like wildfire, that's why Cassandra has to get the actual whole story out of Varric).

First, an apostate completely unconnected to the Kirkwall Circle does something horrific, and the Kirkwall Circle gets the Right of Annulment pronounced on it. This is a measure so drastic it has only been performed seven times in the history of the Circles (and seven times is quite a lot, really). Remember that this is not 'we're going to attack the bad mages but maybe be talked into sparing the ones that surrender'. While you can DO this as Hawke, that's not what the Right is. The RIght of Annulment is 'we are going to kill every single mage in the the Circle'. This includes children. It came about because there was a situation where the Templars were facing a rebellion but couldn't single out the culprits from those who weren't involved, and the abominations that resulted caused a lot of death and misery. It's basically the 'kill them all and let the Maker sort them out' solution.

So that's scary enough that this can happen to you if your fellow Circle members go insane, but there were checks in place (it has to be really bad, it has to come down from on high, not the local Templar leader, etc). Meredith throws that out the window. She goes 'no, screw it, I'm going to annul the Circle for something not a single one of them did or had any part of, and I'm going to do it without waiting for the proper authority'. The message this sends? That the Templars can up and decide to murder the entire Circle entirely on their own and it doesn't have to be for anything the Circle actually did.

The threat of what's done to apostates is a big part of what holds the Circles in line. The other part is a belief that the Circle is necessary and that it protects mages as much as it protects everyone else. If your immediate overseers can decide on a total whim to wipe you out, if the entire Circle can be killed for something someone outside the Circle does, then it is no longer protecting mages and there's no reason to be afraid of getting killed if you're going to get killed anyway.

And consider what everyone else must be thinking after Kirkwall. A mage blew the Chantry up (Cassandra even seems to think Hawke is directly responsible and planned this from the beginning, so it's believed it was a conspiracy by apostates and their sympathizers, not just the act of one desperate man). Imagine what the common people must think about mages after that, and other Templars must be looking at their own Circles with the squinty eye. It may well, in fact probably did, result in immediate crackdowns. Now, if you're a Circle Mage in this situation, who has just realized the Templars can get away with murdering you and everyone you know for no reason at all, and attitudes against mages are at an all time high, and the Templars are starting to crack down in a way that Meredith started...well, rebellion is going to start to sound not just like an option, but maybe the only option. And that's of course if you're a Circle supporting mage. If you're one that's been desperate to break free for a while, you hardly need a lot of reason to try for it other than 'you might be annulled anyway, even if you do nothing'.

[Kenshen]

nikeimizhong wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

Blowing up a chantry and killing a grand cleric is big news and not everyone in Kirkwall would have died. Well ok maybe all the mages did but that isn't the point. It takes what 2 weeks for a boat ride to the other side and once the news started to spread it would go like a wild fire. And 3 years is a lot of time for the other circles to rise up and fight.

Also there is a templar rebellion going on and the chantry is in some serious hurt power wise because of it. So it doesn't surprise me one bit that all of this happens in that short timeframe since the build up for it has been going on for 900+ years.

true not everyone in kirkwall died, but if you join templars and kill anders, you can just say that orsino planned it personally and he was allied with anders ( fake story for the masses, its not like citizens in kirkwall will trully know what and who caused the explosion of the chantry) and just spread that story out.

it can be proven that orsino and meredith both were totally nuts, it can be confirmed by cullen and your Carver( if you are mage) so both templars and mages of entire thedas will see that it was it was mutual mistake, and try to end the conflict somehow peacefuly , instead of both fractions going ape **** crazy and rebelling against everything at sight XD

If  you were a mage slave being repressed by the templar I doubt you would care for a bunch of names you never heard of before.  Just look at what is going on in the middle east it does not take that much to get people to revolt and often times all it takes is just one to get the many to rise up as well.

Both sides I am sure will point the finger of blame at each other but in the end it does not matter who started what.  Both sides think they are right.  The events in Kirkwall maybe could have been ended peacefully but the war was coming and that can not be stopped.  You can only keep someone down for so long before they will fight back.