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[asindre]

The Angry One wrote...
And yet the First Enchanter turning into the Blob and having been involved in blood magic and necromancy all along wouldn't make any of the Circles pause and consider?

Don't say nobody would know, there'd be witnesses and a search of his offices and living quarters would probably come up with a lot of incriminating stuff.

And if Orsino's blood magic was the reason for the annulment maybe they would have. The templars started the annulment because of an apostate and the other circles are afraid it can happen again.

[Corwyn]

The thing is justified or not the Templars used the Rite of Annulment. You can't hide that, one day there was mages one they're all gone. Think on that if you were a mage suppose the Templars told you they found some blood mages they still killed every mage in the tower.

First the mages don't get along that great with the templars they probably aren't inclined to just take their word on it. Second even if they believe the templars they have to be concerned that it's going to happen to them next or they sympathize with the mages and think the templars pushed them to blood magic.

Even the mages like Irving who have advocated diplomacy resent the templars to some degree if you do the mage origin he's very petty about making sure a chantry member gets punished along with a mage. Now that a whole circle has been killed it's going to be hard for any moderate voices to hold sway after all the templars have just shown being moderate won't get you spared.

[nikeimizhong]

i agree, that both sides are too blame, and its possible to understand both, the mages and the templars points of view.

its just i mean if templars or chantry really were trying to reduce the danger level of this conflict atleast one bit, they could atleast say that orsino was to blame and he led the rebellion of blood mages, and he himself turned into a blob ( and point on his dead body ) and if you kill anders, obviously he cant speak for himself anymore XD so you can just pull things out of your ass and say he and orsino were allies and crazy.

and thus totally justifying the right of kill them all, but! if you side templars , you actually come across 2 mages which just surrended and which claim they are not blood mages, you can kill them or spare them ( i spared them and cullen and other templars agreed with my ways, and ignored meredeth at that poing)

besides circle of magi of kirkwall is not a norm i think, its totaly ****ed up lol, i thought ferelden circle was a "bit" messy, but THIS is just pushing it XD

[AlexXIV]

We don't really know much or anything about the mage rebellion and why all of them were interested in Kirkwall. Maybe because Kirkwall is one of the worst circles. I'm thinking the events in Kirkwall were some sort of trigger but the liberationists must have been planning it for a while before. They just used Kirkwall as a sign or excuse to start.

According to what Varric says Meredith caused the mages to be more rebellous, since the tighter she squeezed, the more mages resisted. But it could as well be possible that some of the more fanatical liberationists sent people there to cause trouble and put the Knight Commander and the templars on the edge. It is kind of funny Anders happend to be there ... coincidently. Also I find it kind of funny so many bloodmages were there when the veil is especially thin in Kirkwall. I mean the logical thing would be to keep especially rebellous mages away from holes in the veil.

Kirkwall has been a tevinter magister circle for the sole reason that it is probably easier to access the fade and demons. Why in the nine hells did the templars think it is a great place to keep mages safe? Doesn't make alot of sense, does it?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 29 mars 2011 - 09:06 .

[nikeimizhong]

AlexXIV wrote...
Kirkwall has been a tevinter magister circle for the sole reason that it is probably easier to access the fade and demons. Why in the nine hells did the templars think it is a great place to keep mages safe? Doesn't make alot of sense, does it?

lol...yea its like locking terrorists in the nuclear bomb factory...XD

[Wulfram]

There were increasing tensions before, and I'd guess they didn't all rebel at once - most likely the initial reaction was shock and protest, matched by a crackdown on the part of the Templars whose worse fears are confirmed by the destruction of Kirkwall's chantry. Then one of the more libertarian circles rebels, maybe enjoys some success, and other circles are inspired, while the panicking templars attempts at repression in the circles they still control make for more unrest and thus more rebellions.

We can see in the real world that revolution is contagious.

[brain_damage]

The Circle from Kirkwall decided to throw a party and invited all the other Circles, but the mean templars wouldn't let them go, so a rebellion ensued. True story.

[nikeimizhong]

its just this fact of "great change" looks quite lame from my point of view XD
from DAO i know that both, templars and mages dont want any confrontations, and would rather cooparate as far as possible, eg: Irwing and Gregor, they surely have a lot to argue about, but still they listen to each other.

so i assume many leader mages in other circles will be against the confrontation, since they know that it will cause a lot of needless death from both sides.

and even if the global war would occur, what the outcome will be for them? they cant win, since most normal citizens would still support templars or chantry and fear the mages

mages have only one possible positive outcome from all of this, to take control of some country and rule as magisters ( aka like in ancient tevinter times) which is reeeeeeeeeally unlikely i think

[steelfire_dragon]

.... umm Anders was not an apostate mage.

Anders is/was an ex-circle/gray warden turned renegade mage.

Jowan was also a circle mage.
both men had good intent, but both went and did the wrong way.

as to the OT:
consider years and generation of humilation, abuse, denied basic humanity rights, called curesed by the maker, watched sleeping, watched bathing, watched dressing, locked up in prison( no matter waht you call it and no matter how comfortable it is, a Prison is STILL a prison) deined to see their parents and then see collegues become threatened for something they had nothing to do with?

seems good enough reason to me to rebel.


wonder if Gregor actions were......

[Nerivant]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

.... umm Anders was not an apostate mage.

Anders is/was an ex-circle/gray warden turned renegade mage.

Which fits the definition of an apostate.

"Mage outside the Circle."

[Kenshen]

nikeimizhong wrote...

i agree, that both sides are too blame, and its possible to understand both, the mages and the templars points of view.

its just i mean if templars or chantry really were trying to reduce the danger level of this conflict atleast one bit, they could atleast say that orsino was to blame and he led the rebellion of blood mages, and he himself turned into a blob ( and point on his dead body ) and if you kill anders, obviously he cant speak for himself anymore XD so you can just pull things out of your ass and say he and orsino were allies and crazy.

and thus totally justifying the right of kill them all, but! if you side templars , you actually come across 2 mages which just surrended and which claim they are not blood mages, you can kill them or spare them ( i spared them and cullen and other templars agreed with my ways, and ignored meredeth at that poing)

besides circle of magi of kirkwall is not a norm i think, its totaly ****ed up lol, i thought ferelden circle was a "bit" messy, but THIS is just pushing it XD

I think I understand what you are saying but my point is no matter who you choose to side with, when it is all said and done all we have is dead people everywhere.  Orsino isn't without fault but he did not start nor did he lead the rebellion until the very end and that was really only for a few battles before he cracks and goes blob.  Orsino certainly isn't to blame for the other circles rebelling.

My take on what Cassandra says at the end tells me that there really were only a few people who she and/or the chantry cared about.  Orsino, Meredith, Hawke, and Anders.  Also it seems the chantry wasn't aware how bad things had gotten in Kirkwall even though there is talk the Divine might send troops there (never did understand this part it doesn't make any sense to me).  The one I would blame for that is the grand cleric.  So not only was she staying on the sidelines on the mage v templar issue but she wasn't even reporting accurately the fast decaying situation.  Or if she was then someone on the other end dropped the ball.

[TJPags]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because if Hawke decided go side wih the templars, it showed the mages what the Templar Order was willing to do (as Varric says) and I would wager that killing every Circle mage for something no mage of the Circle had anything to do with would be an argument for emancipating the Circles from Chantry and templar control. We already know the meeting in Cumberland had a lot of support, and Wynne only advocated against it because she thought the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free. I guess killing the mages when they're innocent rubbed the majority of the Circle mages the wrong way.

And yet the First Enchanter turning into the Blob and having been involved in blood magic and necromancy all along wouldn't make any of the Circles pause and consider?

Don't say nobody would know, there'd be witnesses and a search of his offices and living quarters would probably come up with a lot of incriminating stuff.

Orsino was an idiot. People tend to "forget" such persons, when they belong to their organization. Also, most mages of Kirkwall left before he did his Harvester bullcrap (if you support mages).

They did?  I thought they all turned into abominations and attacked me . . . no, but seriously, I didn't see any leaving.  In fact, after I killed Meredith on my side-with-the-mages Hawke, the only non-templars alive in the courtyard were my people.  I kind of figured it was a failed revolt.

The Angry One wrote...

Since Anders is still technically a Grey Warden, what was needed was Loghain to blame it all on a Grey Warden conspiracy!
This would've saved everyone, and possibly put Stroud on the chopping block. Everybody wins!

Ha!!!  Yes, this would have made perfect sense!!!  I can just see him, standing outside the Chantry in Orlais, screaming about it being an Orlesian plot!!!!

[Foolsfolly]

The Angry One wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because if Hawke decided go side wih the templars, it showed the mages what the Templar Order was willing to do (as Varric says) and I would wager that killing every Circle mage for something no mage of the Circle had anything to do with would be an argument for emancipating the Circles from Chantry and templar control. We already know the meeting in Cumberland had a lot of support, and Wynne only advocated against it because she thought the Chantry would kill the mages rather than see them free. I guess killing the mages when they're innocent rubbed the majority of the Circle mages the wrong way.

And yet the First Enchanter turning into the Blob and having been involved in blood magic and necromancy all along wouldn't make any of the Circles pause and consider?

Don't say nobody would know, there'd be witnesses and a search of his offices and living quarters would probably come up with a lot of incriminating stuff.

And according to the Engima of Kirkwall it's well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall. So the other First Enchanters around Thedas would know that demonic influence in Kirkwall would be commonplace (one of the Engima of Kirkwall say the Veil is so thin that common, non-mages can interact with demons). They'd know that the nercomancer/blood mage Orsino likely fell to demonic influences that were rampant in the town.

Not exactly, the most rallying moment possible for Mages is it?

From my first playthrough I've had a problem with the whole "and now they all rebelled" thing we're force fed. It was a really isolated case.

As I've said elsewhere, it would have been a little better if Anders blew up the Divine. Then the Chantry would be in complete shock and disarray without a leader. The power vacuum would have people clawing for the seat of power and the Knight-Commanders/general population would treat all mages with hostility because a mage killed the Divine (which I don't think ever happened before).

As is it's just an isolated case in one backwater city-state.