333 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeratul20]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I'm English, of course I drink tea!

Its really not my fault that its damned near impossible to get a good cuppa outside of the UK.

I brew my own for that reason.  Most of the stuff here's pretty weak.

... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.

[HeavyTankZA]

i play paragon and the choice was easy really. either A) 300,000 batarians lives by my hand, quick easy and painlessly saving trillions more or slow maddening indoctrination by the Reapers saving no one.

A) easy choice really

[Pwener2313]

Arcian wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Content is taken out for they're actions.

Well of course it is, they can't really expect to meet Shiala, Gianna or anyone else you kill again. Jesus Christ, this is the most stupid thing I have heard since birth.

If you're a dick and kill people, those people won't come back, aaaand, tada, content is cut. Good job tripping yourselves, guys.

Wrong. BW learned and in ME3, instead of cutting content they're still putting it, just in a different form. If Garrus died in ME2, his mission is stil available in ME3, just in a different fashion.

[Dave666]

Zeratul20 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I'm English, of course I drink tea!

Its really not my fault that its damned near impossible to get a good cuppa outside of the UK.

I brew my own for that reason.  Most of the stuff here's pretty weak.

... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.

Perhaps, but I like the taste of Tea and can't stand Coffee (far too bitter, sugar doesn't help at all), so this way I get to have my caffeine fix without having to tear my tongue out afterwards.

[Zeratul20]

Dave666 wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I'm English, of course I drink tea!

Its really not my fault that its damned near impossible to get a good cuppa outside of the UK.

I brew my own for that reason.  Most of the stuff here's pretty weak.

... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.

Perhaps, but I like the taste of Tea and can't stand Coffee (far too bitter, sugar doesn't help at all), so this way I get to have my caffeine fix without having to tear my tongue out afterwards.

Point taken. I don't think tea contains quite as much caffeine as coffee, though. (Then again, I wouldn't be so sure about your strong tea.)
Speaking of which, I need a cup of tea. Or coffee. One or the other.

[Pwener2313]

From discussion to trolling to tea lovers. WTH

[Zeratul20]

... Yes, sorry, I tend to get distracted. I read these forums in a speedy fashion, thus resulting in me replying to whatever sparks my interest. I often forget to pay attention to the topic's title/OP.

My apologies.

[Dave666]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I'm English, of course I drink tea!

Its really not my fault that its damned near impossible to get a good cuppa outside of the UK.

I brew my own for that reason.  Most of the stuff here's pretty weak.

... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.

Perhaps, but I like the taste of Tea and can't stand Coffee (far too bitter, sugar doesn't help at all), so this way I get to have my caffeine fix without having to tear my tongue out afterwards.

Point taken. I don't think tea contains quite as much caffeine as coffee, though. (Then again, I wouldn't be so sure about your strong tea.)
Speaking of which, I need a cup of tea. Or coffee. One or the other.

Silly bit of trivia for you. Gram for gram Tea has more caffeine than Coffee, however in general, more coffee is used in the average cup than tea, so the average cup of coffee has more caffeine.  Don't ask me why I know that, my head is full of useless stuff like that. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Arcian wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Content is taken out for they're actions.

Well of course it is, they can't really expect to meet Shiala, Gianna or anyone else you kill again. Jesus Christ, this is the most stupid thing I have heard since birth.

If you're a dick and kill people, those people won't come back, aaaand, tada, content is cut. Good job tripping yourselves, guys.

Try thinking around the false-delimmas before you accuse others of stupidity. There's no reason an alternate cameo can't take place either. In fact, there's no reason (besides, maybe, voice-actor clauses) non-killable characters souldn't be brought back in the place of killable major cameos.

The choice of choosing to bringing only Shiala back as a selfless, out-of-depth helper with a slight crush on Shepard makes less sense when there was a young woman named Elizabeth who was also on Feros, who has the same motivations for wanting to help the colonists, and who more importantly can not be killed in any circumstance. And given that said young was also rescued by the charming commander, if you simply must throw in a 'every female is besotted by Shepard' theme, there's no reason you can't do it with a human girl rather than a fan-service re-greened Shiala who might not even be there.

When it comes to Gianna, why is it only Gianna? Why can't, in lie of her, the awesome Truian that is Lorik? Who, in no playthrough of the game, will be killed? Who also, depending on the actions in the first game, may either be happy to see Shepard or a bit bitter from a lack of help? Why is killable Gianna the only cameo solution?


If someone is dead, that does mean they should not return. It does not mean that there should not be other cameos, to reflect what you've done, or stand-ins. If you didn't save that scientists on Virmire, why shouldn't there be another no-name scientist on Grunt's recruitment mission to tell you the same thing? If you killed the Rachni Queen, why can't in the Ambassador's place we have a Noveria executive to give you thanks?


The idea that, if you didn't save someone you can not get equal content, is bizaar, and only slightly more so than the idea that one-sided exclusive content is preferable to equal content that can be justified by non-killable cameos. Killable characters should stick to emails, like most of the rest of the easily missable variables: green Shiala isn't needed in person to give us a Feros colonist cameo and provide her thanks, Giana isn't necessary for Noveria corporate cameo, and the Rachni Ambassador isn't necessary for a nod to the Rachni choice.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 avril 2011 - 09:34 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The idea that, if you didn't save someone you can not get equal content, is bizaar, and only slightly more so than the idea that one-sided exclusive content is preferable to equal content that can be justified by non-killable cameos. Killable characters should stick to emails, like most of the rest of the easily missable variables: green Shiala isn't needed in person to give us a Feros colonist cameo and provide her thanks, Giana isn't necessary for Noveria corporate cameo, and the Rachni Ambassador isn't necessary for a nod to the Rachni choice.

You hit the nail on the head here. Of course, I have had faith in Bioware in the past, especially with the presentation of the paragon/renegade paths as two sides to the same proverbial coin. Some of this GameInformer news, however, is disheartening (to say the least). I fear the developers may cop out and go with the "paragon is best, be nice to everyone and you'll be better off" paradigm for the final installment of the series. Here's to hope that will not happen.

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Content is taken out for they're actions.

Well of course it is, they can't really expect to meet Shiala, Gianna or anyone else you kill again. Jesus Christ, this is the most stupid thing I have heard since birth.

If you're a dick and kill people, those people won't come back, aaaand, tada, content is cut. Good job tripping yourselves, guys.

Try thinking around the false-delimmas before you accuse others of stupidity. There's no reason an alternate cameo can't take place either. In fact, there's no reason (besides, maybe, voice-actor clauses) non-killable characters souldn't be brought back in the place of killable major cameos.

The choice of choosing to bringing only Shiala back as a selfless, out-of-depth helper with a slight crush on Shepard makes less sense when there was a young woman named Elizabeth who was also on Feros, who has the same motivations for wanting to help the colonists, and who more importantly can not be killed in any circumstance. And given that said young was also rescued by the charming commander, if you simply must throw in a 'every female is besotted by Shepard' theme, there's no reason you can't do it with a human girl rather than a fan-service re-greened Shiala who might not even be there.

When it comes to Gianna, why is it only Gianna? Why can't, in lie of her, the awesome Truian that is Lorik? Who, in no playthrough of the game, will be killed? Who also, depending on the actions in the first game, may either be happy to see Shepard or a bit bitter from a lack of help? Why is killable Gianna the only cameo solution?


If someone is dead, that does mean they should not return. It does not mean that there should not be other cameos, to reflect what you've done, or stand-ins. If you didn't save that scientists on Virmire, why shouldn't there be another no-name scientist on Grunt's recruitment mission to tell you the same thing? If you killed the Rachni Queen, why can't in the Ambassador's place we have a Noveria executive to give you thanks?


The idea that, if you didn't save someone you can not get equal content, is bizaar, and only slightly more so than the idea that one-sided exclusive content is preferable to equal content that can be justified by non-killable cameos. Killable characters should stick to emails, like most of the rest of the easily missable variables: green Shiala isn't needed in person to give us a Feros colonist cameo and provide her thanks, Giana isn't necessary for Noveria corporate cameo, and the Rachni Ambassador isn't necessary for a nod to the Rachni choice.

Thats actually a bloody good point Dean, kudos to you!

[Zeratul20]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Pwener2313 wrote...

Content is taken out for they're actions.

Well of course it is, they can't really expect to meet Shiala, Gianna or anyone else you kill again. Jesus Christ, this is the most stupid thing I have heard since birth.

If you're a dick and kill people, those people won't come back, aaaand, tada, content is cut. Good job tripping yourselves, guys.

Try thinking around the false-delimmas before you accuse others of stupidity. There's no reason an alternate cameo can't take place either. In fact, there's no reason (besides, maybe, voice-actor clauses) non-killable characters souldn't be brought back in the place of killable major cameos.

The choice of choosing to bringing only Shiala back as a selfless, out-of-depth helper with a slight crush on Shepard makes less sense when there was a young woman named Elizabeth who was also on Feros, who has the same motivations for wanting to help the colonists, and who more importantly can not be killed in any circumstance. And given that said young was also rescued by the charming commander, if you simply must throw in a 'every female is besotted by Shepard' theme, there's no reason you can't do it with a human girl rather than a fan-service re-greened Shiala who might not even be there.

When it comes to Gianna, why is it only Gianna? Why can't, in lie of her, the awesome Truian that is Lorik? Who, in no playthrough of the game, will be killed? Who also, depending on the actions in the first game, may either be happy to see Shepard or a bit bitter from a lack of help? Why is killable Gianna the only cameo solution?


If someone is dead, that does mean they should not return. It does not mean that there should not be other cameos, to reflect what you've done, or stand-ins. If you didn't save that scientists on Virmire, why shouldn't there be another no-name scientist on Grunt's recruitment mission to tell you the same thing? If you killed the Rachni Queen, why can't in the Ambassador's place we have a Noveria executive to give you thanks?


The idea that, if you didn't save someone you can not get equal content, is bizaar, and only slightly more so than the idea that one-sided exclusive content is preferable to equal content that can be justified by non-killable cameos. Killable characters should stick to emails, like most of the rest of the easily missable variables: green Shiala isn't needed in person to give us a Feros colonist cameo and provide her thanks, Giana isn't necessary for Noveria corporate cameo, and the Rachni Ambassador isn't necessary for a nod to the Rachni choice.

Interesting point, but then you'll get people who'll complain that their choices had no impact whatsoever. The return of Shiala, while clearly an example of fan-service, is to show people how their choices mattered.

Other than that, I do agree with you.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Interesting point, but then you'll get people who'll complain that their choices had no impact whatsoever. The return of Shiala, while clearly an example of fan-service, is to show people how their choices mattered.

Other than that, I do agree with you.

I would have to disagree. The return of Shiala was an example of fan-service plus Bioware's attempt at making the player feel like his choices mattered. In reality the choice was completely insignificant in any tangible fashion. In my opinion it then just becomes fan-service.

[Zeratul20]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

Interesting point, but then you'll get people who'll complain that their choices had no impact whatsoever. The return of Shiala, while clearly an example of fan-service, is to show people how their choices mattered.

Other than that, I do agree with you.

I would have to disagree. The return of Shiala was an example of fan-service plus Bioware's attempt at making the player feel like his choices mattered. In reality the choice was completely insignificant in any tangible fashion. In my opinion it then just becomes fan-service.

Again, I agree. That is what I wished to convey, in fact. My apologies.

[Arijharn]

Even if Paragon shephard did manage to get a message out to the Colony, is anyone truly naive enough to think that:
a) The Batarian's would just listen to this unknown demanding an evacuation of a Colony in a couple of hours?
That it was even possible to begin with?
c) That even if they believed the unknown and acted promptly, that there would be order and calm? There would be mass hysteria, panic and confusion and a lot of people would die regardless.

In this case, the paragon response is nothing more than to massage someone's ego, no actual workable benefit could occur, and certainly not one that could benefit the Batarians, and I say this as someone who while I may not necessarily like them, I certainly don't want to see them become extinct either. I'm not going to sacrifice Kar'Shan just because some Batarian's are slavers.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Again, I agree. That is what I wished to convey, in fact. My apologies.

No need for apologies. I was just offering a differing opinion/clarification of what you stated. I know some who play mostly renegade in ME1 feel cheated by the lack of the little fan-service cameos in ME2. Honestly, it bothers me a little (as one of those renegades), but the fact of the matter is that these cameos are hardly what I would consider "content." What worries me more is the story arc for renegades in ME3, where (hopefully) our decisions will have a major impact on the plot of the final installment of this series.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Interesting point, but then you'll get people who'll complain that their choices had no impact whatsoever. The return of Shiala, while clearly an example of fan-service, is to show people how their choices mattered.

Other than that, I do agree with you.

People already make those complaints already. Why? Because of the mass resortment to emails, and the fact that Shiala does have a stand-in of an entirely no-name colonist, and because none of the cameos were story-critical. Shiala showing up half the time in place of Elizabeth doesn't change it.

That said, my approach would be to approach the choice with two stand-ins as possible: the 'special' stand in who could be killed, and the 'default' stand-in who could not. In the Feros cameo, that means Elizabeth if Shiala is dead... which makes sense in that Shiala's an Asari and would probably do better on an Asari corporate world.

In the case of Noveria, I'd put it on a balance of who you sided with, and how things turned out. Since there are four solutions to the Garrage-pass problem, that leaves two for Giana and two for Lorik:

If Lorik was convinced to testify, Gianna returns and is Pleased to see Shepard. Cue canon ME2 appearance if you helped her. She is here on another investigation.

If Lorik was given his data but NOT convinced to testify, Lorik returns and is Pleased to see Shepard. In getting his own data to keep himself clean, Lorik stepped in when Gianna eventually took down Anoleis. Lorik is here on a business trip to address Noveria concerns.

If Anoleis was given the smuggler's package for a garrage pass, Gianna returns and is Ambivalent to see Shepard: Shepard did not help her, but didn't need to either. After taking down Anoleis on her own, she is here on another investigation.

If Anoleis and Gianna killed eachother, Lorik returns and is Ambivalent to see Shepard: the mutual killing cleared Lorik from all suspicion and he stepped into the voice. He is here on a business trip.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Here's my problem: in literature, the Renegade option usually doesn't end in sunny rainbows the way the Paragon option does.

At the end of Dirty Harry, he tosses his badge into the water. Yeah, he got his job done, he did what he thought was right, but at the cost of everything of value to him in his life. That's a real renegade, right there.

When I play Renegade, I want to be Dirty Harry, I want to be Snake Plissken, I don't want to be some lame dark side Jedi who gets whatever he wants.

[Dean_the_Young]

Depends what literature you read (technothriller/National Security ****** often glorifies dirty deeds and the departments of dirty tricks), but I don't know about wanting rainbows.

I am always loath to point to any one character as 'real renegade' anymore than I am to point to anyone as a 'real paragon.' Too 'No True Scotsman' to go 'no real renegade should care or want to get equal content.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 avril 2011 - 10:34 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I wasn't saying that, exactly. I was more saying that a desire for the freedom to make choices should also include a willingness to accept the consequences, even if they're not always positive on your side.

To quote Peter S. Beagle: 
Those with choices need not choose, we must who have none.
We can love but what we lose, what is gone is gone.

If you kill someone or shut them out, they should be gone. Most Paragons have said before and will say again that they expect and don't mind some of their choices backfiring. I actually wish that there were more cases where that was true (like where Renegades take a bribe and let that Cerberus scientist lady go free, if she were to later talk to them on illium, where she's doing more questionable research. Or smuggling that upgrade for that Hanar could bring him back on Omega, expanding his business.)

I'd prefer different benefits and detriments from different situations, rather than a blanket replacement of any Paragon cameo with an equivalent Renegade one. If it was important to you to see someone again, don't kill 'em. If you want to have a good relationship with a criminal, help him with his dirty deeds. That kind of thing.

Saying "Every choice made must result in exactly the same amount of content no matter what choice was made" devalues the impact of choice. You can then just unthinkingly make any choice, completely unworried about the consequences, because you know it won't really matter, it'll just flavor the story.

Better to have certain things benefit Renegades with extra content and other things benefit Paragons than to have all decisions result in exactly the same amount of content, is what I'm saying.

That way the "ideal" playthrough would probably be a paragade one, balancing the benefits of going one direction with the detriments of losing some content.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 19 avril 2011 - 10:51 .

[Merchant2006]

Oh for the love of...

Arrival was meant to be a closing EPILOGUE. THERE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ANY REAL BIG CHOICE. The DLC was supposed to bring a closing show for Mass Effect 2 and hence why it has that 'inevitability'. Not every single goddamn DLC had a choice! Look at Kasumi's or ShadBroker! We all knew X would die/Liara would pretty much take over so why is Arrival such a big hoo ha?

Arrival doesn't have a renegade ending. It has an ending that you could not avoid. It sets up the scene for ME3.

My contribution here is *Emperor Palpatine voice* COMPLETE.

[JeffZero]

I don't know, I think that would be pretty hilarious. Like... the first two times, max. But still.

Ahem. But yeah. CulturalGeekGirl Merchant2006 have my vote: Arrival is as it needs to be. Sure, it isn't perfect, but when it comes to the lack of a big decision, I concur that it's out of necessity.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Oh for the love of...

Arrival was meant to be a closing EPILOGUE. THERE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ANY REAL BIG CHOICE. The DLC was supposed to bring a closing show for Mass Effect 2 and hence why it has that 'inevitability'. Not every single goddamn DLC had a choice! Look at Kasumi's or ShadBroker! We all knew X would die/Liara would pretty much take over so why is Arrival such a big hoo ha?

Arrival doesn't have a renegade ending. It has an ending that you could not avoid. It sets up the scene for ME3.

My contribution here is *Emperor Palpatine voice* COMPLETE.

Just a short thing to add here: 

I think Paragons would have been more satisfied with Arrival if it had given them more chances to express their reticence, and also gave them more of a feeling of the necessity of it all. I felt like a passenger in someone else's life, rather than a driving force in my own.

I would have made the same decision in the end, but I would have liked the ability to express the emotion that it was still not right, and that I felt bad about it. I also would have liked to argue with Kenson about her cavalier attitude about the whole "blowing up the mass relay" thing, and why she didn't put in place more precautions to ensure that people were warned.

In LotSB you can have feelings about the stuff that happens, and express those feelings. In Arrival, it's just a conveyor belt.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 19 avril 2011 - 11:34 .