In LotSB you can have feelings about the stuff that happens, and express those feelings. In Arrival, it's just a conveyor belt.
Modifié par Zeratul20, 19 avril 2011 - 11:51 .
Guest_Arcian_*
Pretty much this.Zeratul20 wrote...
Decent DLC, but it had it's faults.
I'm American. :|Zeratul20 wrote...
... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUyX6bO-zuNnMue1Yls-5qc0WGe2maC9_NE7FQzaNQ8qeW6BfMzw&t=1AdmiralCheez wrote...
I'm American. :|Zeratul20 wrote...
... Yes, but that's because you Britts use the "one bag per person, and one for the pot"-standard. I like a strong cup of tea as much as any other person, but yours is a bit overpowering. Your tea is almost as strong as my bloody coffee.
Yes. I enjoyed the combat, but it was notably glitchy and the dialogue sucked (apart from the Hackett convos).Zeratul20 wrote...
Agreed, with both of you. Decent DLC, but it had it's faults.
You are "forced" to do a lot of things to advance the plot.And I never had that feeling earlier, when we were equally "forced" to do certain things to advance the plot. (I.e.: working with cerberus, for example.)
I agree, but it never felt like a conveyor belt (thanks for the analogy), at the time. Like I said, though, it's a decent DLC.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yes. I enjoyed the combat, but it was notably glitchy and the dialogue sucked (apart from the Hackett convos).Zeratul20 wrote...
Agreed, with both of you. Decent DLC, but it had it's faults.You are "forced" to do a lot of things to advance the plot.And I never had that feeling earlier, when we were equally "forced" to do certain things to advance the plot. (I.e.: working with cerberus, for example.)
Like visiting Noveria.
Recruiting Liara/Ashley/Tali.
Visiting Feros.
Killing the Thorian.
Planting a bomb on Virmire.
Hunting down Saren.
Finding the Conduit.
Recruiting Mordin/Garrus/Jack.
Picking up Grunt's tank.
Going to Horizon/the disabled Collector ship/the "dead" Reaper/the Collector base.
I'd say stuff like this is necessary so that every player at least experiences a relatively coherent plot. You can't exactly have a completely open world when the devs have a specific story to tell. Sure, the details are up to you (and those details should have a notable effect on ME3, if we get what we were promised), but Shepard is pretty much stuck saving the galaxy even if you really wanted to make him a chef.
For me? For the puppy eyes?)Modifié par Zeratul20, 19 avril 2011 - 12:03 .
Yeah, I know you didn't have a problem with it. I was more interested in reminding folks that a little bit of railroading is necessary. There are those that whine louder than thou, and to them I address this. I was building on your point, not disagreeing with it.Zeratul20 wrote...
I agree, but it never felt like a conveyor belt (thanks for the analogy), at the time. Like I said, though, it's a decent DLC.
I didn't realize there was one.(Couldn't you have taken the typo out of the quote, though?
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 avril 2011 - 12:04 .
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Here's my problem: in literature, the Renegade option usually doesn't end in sunny rainbows the way the Paragon option does.
At the end of Dirty Harry, he tosses his badge into the water. Yeah, he got his job done, he did what he thought was right, but at the cost of everything of value to him in his life. That's a real renegade, right there.
Hmm. I seem to be making a habit out of misinterpreting people's posts. My apologies.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Yeah, I know you didn't have a problem with it. I was more interested in reminding folks that a little bit of railroading is necessary. There are those that whine louder than thou, and to them I address this. I was building on your point, not disagreeing with it.Zeratul20 wrote...
I agree, but it never felt like a conveyor belt (thanks for the analogy), at the time. Like I said, though, it's a decent DLC.
008Zulu wrote...
CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Here's my problem: in literature, the Renegade option usually doesn't end in sunny rainbows the way the Paragon option does.
At the end of Dirty Harry, he tosses his badge into the water. Yeah, he got his job done, he did what he thought was right, but at the cost of everything of value to him in his life. That's a real renegade, right there.
Harry threw his badge away because even though he knew he did the right thing, he knew he no longer deserved to carry it.
If Mass Effect were to carry this idea of the Renegade, how could it end for Shepard other than being locked away for the rest of his life? Renegades aren't afraid to cross the line to get the job done, but what they call "crossing the line" others would call "breaking the law". Being a Renegade didn't work out too well for Snake.
People like Renegades as much as the current circumstances will allow,
as soon as the crisis is over they will demand you be thrown in a deep
dark hole until the end of time. Mass Effect isnt about being a jerk who
saves the galaxy, its about being the big dam hero.
No problem.Zeratul20 wrote...
Hmm. I seem to be making a habit out of misinterpreting people's posts. My apologies.
Oh. Points for catching it.(And the typo was "it's". It was possessive, so it should've been "its".)
That's a pretty self-serving ending and I hope it doesn't happen. I'd rather focus on ending the nastier conflicts, you know? I'd like whatever survivors that are left to be at relative peace with each other once the Reapers are gone. We've had enough death and destruction, methinks.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
[snip snip blah blah typical CGG awesomeness that stands on its own]
I mean... I guess I don't understand what kind of ending Renegades want? If the Paragons "Best" ending is one where all the aliens love them and all the people whose lives they saved show up to give hugs, what do the Renegades want their equivalent to be?
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 avril 2011 - 12:36 .
I really wonder what's going to happen next. Ah well, we'll see.AdmiralCheez wrote...
That's a pretty self-serving ending and I hope it doesn't happen. I'd rather focus on ending the nastier conflicts, you know? I'd like whatever survivors that are left to be at relative peace with each other once the Reapers are gone. We've had enough death and destruction, methinks.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
[snip snip blah blah typical CGG awesomeness that stands on its own]
I mean... I guess I don't understand what kind of ending Renegades want? If the Paragons "Best" ending is one where all the aliens love them and all the people whose lives they saved show up to give hugs, what do the Renegades want their equivalent to be?
Not opposed to bro-hugs from my BFFs, though.
If you're short-sighted and shallow minded enough to think that's all it can be, that's pretty much all anything is.Arcian wrote...
And what would the interaction be, exactly? "Hey, Renegade!Shepard, remember me from Randomplanet? Well, I just wanted to tell you that you are the biggest douchebag in the universe for doing Randomstuff and getting people killed. I regret the day you were born, and I spit on your father's grave for ever conceiving you in the first place. Bye."
Jolly times.
Well, considering most of the paragon rewards were people just showing up to shake your hand, anyway...Dean_the_Young wrote...
]If you're short-sighted and shallow minded enough to think that's all it can be, that's pretty much all anything is.
Well, I'd disagree: in LotSB you could express your feelings if your feelings were Paragon, pro-Liara feelings.JeffZero wrote...
In LotSB you can have feelings about the stuff that happens, and express those feelings. In Arrival, it's just a conveyor belt.
And you just accurately summed up what I have against Arrival. I'm a fan of the DLC. At the very least I sure as heck don't hate it. But you're totally right.
Bioware overcompensation strikes again.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, I'd disagree: in LotSB you could express your feelings if your feelings were Paragon, pro-Liara feelings.
Likewise, Arrival gives you more than enough 'I did what has to be done' moments and imagery for Renegades. About the most Renegade you could be was a little trashtalking of an Asari spectre and politely not interrupting Liara as whe was on a vengance quest monolog.
It's not that either one lacks expression, but rather that they lack a balance of expression. They do railroad you into certain views, and that isn't a good thing.
Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 19 avril 2011 - 01:22 .
If by reward you mean 'game item content', though I do sorely miss those easy credits from cameo quests. 'Fluff' and cameos are more about tone anyway, however.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Well, considering most of the paragon rewards were people just showing up to shake your hand, anyway...Dean_the_Young wrote...
]If you're short-sighted and shallow minded enough to think that's all it can be, that's pretty much all anything is.
I agree. On the other hand, the subversion of chance was a theme of Arrival: the point was often that Shepard didn't have any real chance to avoid the inevitable. It was a hallmark within all the twists and turns: you could approach the mission however you wanted, but it still went the same path, whether stealth vs. outright fighting, outlasting the waves or being taken down by Rho, failing to warn the colonists or making no attempt at all, etc.AdmiralCheez wrote...
Bioware overcompensation strikes again.Dean_the_Young wrote...
Well, I'd disagree: in LotSB you could express your feelings if your feelings were Paragon, pro-Liara feelings.
Likewise, Arrival gives you more than enough 'I did what has to be done' moments and imagery for Renegades. About the most Renegade you could be was a little trashtalking of an Asari spectre and politely not interrupting Liara as whe was on a vengance quest monolog.
It's not that either one lacks expression, but rather that they lack a balance of expression. They do railroad you into certain views, and that isn't a good thing.
"ZOMG the fans say Shadow Broker was too paragon! We should make the next DLC totally renegade!"
AdmiralCheez wrote...
That's a pretty self-serving ending and I hope it doesn't happen. I'd rather focus on ending the nastier conflicts, you know? I'd like whatever survivors that are left to be at relative peace with each other once the Reapers are gone. We've had enough death and destruction, methinks.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
[snip snip blah blah typical CGG awesomeness that stands on its own]
I mean... I guess I don't understand what kind of ending Renegades want? If the Paragons "Best" ending is one where all the aliens love them and all the people whose lives they saved show up to give hugs, what do the Renegades want their equivalent to be?
Not opposed to bro-hugs from my BFFs, though.
I can't speak for other Renegades, but I have two very different ones.CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I mean... I guess I don't understand what kind of ending Renegades want? If the Paragons "Best" ending is one where all the aliens love them and all the people whose lives they saved show up to give hugs, what do the Renegades want their equivalent to be?
It wasn't much money, though. It paid for my fish and that's about it.Dean_the_Young wrote...
If by reward you mean 'game item content', though I do sorely miss those easy credits from cameo quests. 'Fluff' and cameos are more about tone anyway, however.
Yeah, those were cool and a good example of the "both sides are equal" stuff I want to see more of.Frankly, I think that the Citadel side missions had the best implementations, for all they were lacking in extensive content. If you gave Bhattia his wife's body, he sends you a nice email and you hear that an initial patriotic enlisting has been matched by a recent decline: if you kept the body for research, you hear about tech upgrades and more steady recruitment.
Or the question about the genetherapy for the unborn child: still interesting. Still equal for both charaters.
Bolded for wisdom. I thought it was kind of cool in that respect. Lack of good dialogue/pretty shallow storytelling is my main beef with it.Dean_the_Young wrote...
I agree. On the other hand, the subversion of chance was a theme of Arrival: the point was often that Shepard didn't have any real chance to avoid the inevitable. It was a hallmark within all the twists and turns: you could approach the mission however you wanted, but it still went the same path, whether stealth vs. outright fighting, outlasting the waves or being taken down by Rho, failing to warn the colonists or making no attempt at all, etc.
Unfortunately, LotSB is one of those things that "had" to happen, so the ending was going to be the same no matter what. As Liaratastic as it was, however, I'd much rather play it than read about it in a comic.In many respects, I don't feel a end-choice would have been appropriate, even on its own. Now, had LotSB had a significant choice? Then Arrival would have stood out. But as it is, the theme does hold.
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