333 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I agree. On the other hand, the subversion of chance was a theme of Arrival: the point was often that Shepard didn't have any real chance to avoid the inevitable. It was a hallmark within all the twists and turns: you could approach the mission however you wanted, but it still went the same path, whether stealth vs. outright fighting, outlasting the waves or being taken down by Rho, failing to warn the colonists or making no attempt at all, etc.

Bolded for wisdom.  I thought it was kind of cool in that respect.  Lack of good dialogue/pretty shallow storytelling is my main beef with it.

In many respects, I don't feel a end-choice would have been appropriate, even on its own. Now, had LotSB had a significant choice? Then Arrival would have stood out. But as it is, the theme does hold.

Unfortunately, LotSB is one of those things that "had" to happen, so the ending was going to be the same no matter what.  As Liaratastic as it was, however, I'd much rather play it than read about it in a comic.

I'll have to try replaying LotSB, but I remember there being quite a few times when you had a few wheels of dialogue and could choose to be upset with Liara, or blaze about her problems. You still ended up helping, but you could say a thing. Also, at the end you could choose whether or not to invite her up or leave her lonely at that depressing, depressing base.

If Portal2 wasn't downloading, I'd replay LotSB to see how much of a dick you can be to Liara throughout it, and how much you can undercut her or criticize her. I'd wager it's more than you can comment on Arrival, but maybe I'm wrong in that estimation.

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'll have to try replaying LotSB, but I remember there being quite a few times when you had a few wheels of dialogue and could choose to be upset with Liara, or blaze about her problems. You still ended up helping, but you could say a thing. Also, at the end you could choose whether or not to invite her up or leave her lonely at that depressing, depressing base.

If Portal2 wasn't downloading, I'd replay LotSB to see how much of a dick you can be to Liara throughout it, and how much you can undercut her or criticize her. I'd wager it's more than you can comment on Arrival, but maybe I'm wrong in that estimation.

Portal 2's out?  Crap, why now, when I have work to do?

To be honest, I don't really have a desire to be a dick to Liara anyway.  I'll settle for stoic, which I think I got.  I just enjoy complaining about how special Liara is.  I want my favorite characters to take the spotlight, damn it!

[Zeratul20]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'll have to try replaying LotSB, but I remember there being quite a few times when you had a few wheels of dialogue and could choose to be upset with Liara, or blaze about her problems. You still ended up helping, but you could say a thing. Also, at the end you could choose whether or not to invite her up or leave her lonely at that depressing, depressing base.

If Portal2 wasn't downloading, I'd replay LotSB to see how much of a dick you can be to Liara throughout it, and how much you can undercut her or criticize her. I'd wager it's more than you can comment on Arrival, but maybe I'm wrong in that estimation.

Portal 2's out?  Crap, why now, when I have work to do?

To be honest, I don't really have a desire to be a dick to Liara anyway.  I'll settle for stoic, which I think I got.  I just enjoy complaining about how special Liara is.  I want my favorite characters to take the spotlight, damn it!

Who are your favourite characters, anyway?
And... Ditto about Portal 2. 

[AdmiralCheez]

Zeratul20 wrote...

Who are your favourite characters, anyway?
And... Ditto about Portal 2.

Garrus, Wrex, Mordin, Legion, Lorik Qui'in, and Kal'Reegar.

Mass Effect 3 should really just be about Lorik Qui'in.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'll have to try replaying LotSB, but I remember there being quite a few times when you had a few wheels of dialogue and could choose to be upset with Liara, or blaze about her problems. You still ended up helping, but you could say a thing. Also, at the end you could choose whether or not to invite her up or leave her lonely at that depressing, depressing base.

If Portal2 wasn't downloading, I'd replay LotSB to see how much of a dick you can be to Liara throughout it, and how much you can undercut her or criticize her. I'd wager it's more than you can comment on Arrival, but maybe I'm wrong in that estimation.

Portal 2's out?  Crap, why now, when I have work to do?

To be honest, I don't really have a desire to be a dick to Liara anyway.  I'll settle for stoic, which I think I got.  I just enjoy complaining about how special Liara is.  I want my favorite characters to take the spotlight, damn it!

I'm just ****ing because I don't think the "LotSB railroaded Paragon, so Arrival Railroaded Renegade" comparison is valid. Because I'm not talking about actions anymore, I'm talking about reactions. I think you got more control over your reactions, and more chance to make them feel like you, in Shadow Broker than in arrival.

And yeah, Liara isn't one of my favorites either (though LotSB helped take her from bottom of the list to middle). I would have preferred a plot armor Wrex mission, Kthxbye.

[KnightofPhoenix]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Mass Effect 3 should really just be about Lorik Qui'in.

No, it should be about Parsini. Arresting Reapers.

And her giving Shepard something more than just a kiss on the cheek.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 avril 2011 - 01:49 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Mass Effect 3 should really just be about Lorik Qui'in.

This. Just this.

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm just ****ing because I don't think the "LotSB railroaded Paragon, so Arrival Railroaded Renegade" comparison is valid. Because I'm not talking about actions anymore, I'm talking about reactions. I think you got more control over your reactions, and more chance to make them feel like you, in Shadow Broker than in arrival.

True.  I didn't really intend it as a serious excuse, anyway.  Well, kind of, but not really.  And I totally agree with you on the LotSB thing--Shepard felt less like a plot device and more like a character I'd try to roleplay as.

On a side note, even if some people consider the combat banter OOC, you have to admit it was hilarious.  ME1 references for the win.

And yeah, Liara isn't one of my favorites either (though LotSB helped take her from bottom of the list to middle). I would have preferred a plot armor Wrex mission, Kthxbye.

Blame Bioware for making all the cool characters mortal.

Exccept Lorik Qui'in, who is probably actually immortal anyway.  Totally a god in disguise.  Yep.

[Nashiktal]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm just ****ing because I don't think the "LotSB railroaded Paragon, so Arrival Railroaded Renegade" comparison is valid. Because I'm not talking about actions anymore, I'm talking about reactions. I think you got more control over your reactions, and more chance to make them feel like you, in Shadow Broker than in arrival.

True.  I didn't really intend it as a serious excuse, anyway.  Well, kind of, but not really.  And I totally agree with you on the LotSB thing--Shepard felt less like a plot device and more like a character I'd try to roleplay as.

On a side note, even if some people consider the combat banter OOC, you have to admit it was hilarious.  ME1 references for the win.

And yeah, Liara isn't one of my favorites either (though LotSB helped take her from bottom of the list to middle). I would have preferred a plot armor Wrex mission, Kthxbye.

Blame Bioware for making all the cool characters mortal.

Exccept Lorik Qui'in, who is probably actually immortal anyway.  Totally a god in disguise.  Yep.

You have no idea how dissapointed I was when my favorite Turian did not show up in ME2. Garrus doesn't count, he is a bad Turian.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 19 avril 2011 - 02:00 .

[Zeratul20]

You have to really TRY to kill Garrus if you want him to die, though. (Assuming you did his loyalty quest, anyway.)

[AdmiralCheez]

Zeratul20 wrote...

You have to really TRY to kill Garrus if you want him to die, though. (Assuming you did his loyalty quest, anyway.)

Skipping a quest is pretty easy if you don't pay attention.

Additionally, you can make him your tech, which really just takes a click of the mouse (if you're cruel enough to kill him with a missile to his face, as if the poor bastard hasn't had enough of that).  He's also pretty high on the dies-if-you-choose-the-wrong-biotic and dies-if-you-forgot-to-upgrade-the-gun lists.

[Nashiktal]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

You have to really TRY to kill Garrus if you want him to die, though. (Assuming you did his loyalty quest, anyway.)

Skipping a quest is pretty easy if you don't pay attention.

Additionally, you can make him your tech, which really just takes a click of the mouse (if you're cruel enough to kill him with a missile to his face, as if the poor bastard hasn't had enough of that).  He's also pretty high on the dies-if-you-choose-the-wrong-biotic and dies-if-you-forgot-to-upgrade-the-gun lists.

I was extremely lucky that I did all the loyalty missions before the reaper IFF. That annoyed me to no end though.

[Zeratul20]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Zeratul20 wrote...

You have to really TRY to kill Garrus if you want him to die, though. (Assuming you did his loyalty quest, anyway.)

Skipping a quest is pretty easy if you don't pay attention.

Additionally, you can make him your tech, which really just takes a click of the mouse (if you're cruel enough to kill him with a missile to his face, as if the poor bastard hasn't had enough of that).  He's also pretty high on the dies-if-you-choose-the-wrong-biotic and dies-if-you-forgot-to-upgrade-the-gun lists.

... But! But! It's Garrus.

Death's got nothing on him.

*Commencing "avert attention from the original post with random humour"-protocols*

[AdmiralCheez]

Zeratul20 wrote...

... But! But! It's Garrus.

Death's got nothing on him.

*Commencing "avert attention from the original post with random humour"-protocols*

And that's why Garrus' death rate is low - most people reload because he's brotastic.

[Skarwael]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Frankly, I think that the Citadel side missions had the best implementations, for all they were lacking in extensive content. If you gave Bhattia his wife's body, he sends you a nice email and you hear that an initial patriotic enlisting has been matched by a recent decline: if you kept the body for research, you hear about tech upgrades and more steady recruitment.

Whoa whoa whoa. Hold up.

I definately did that quest with both my imports, yet I never got any email about it. Erm...

On the question of paragons not always being given a paragon choice, that's fine by me. Kenson was an indoctrinated madwoman with a remote charge. Even paragon shep should see that there's not really any choice there. Only, shoot her now or try to (even though it's pointless, the only reason being to satisfy your conscience) talk her down.

[CroGamer002]

squee913 wrote...

What option? Give one example of how you could have accomplished what you want. You tried to contact them, you couldn't. What more could Shepard have done? The option not being there is only confusing if it was a possible option. You were put in a no win scenario. Sometimes there is no way to save everyone. That was the point.  Bioware did not write in a way for you to save the little babies because
A. There was no real way to do that, given the story.
B. If they had, you would not have felt the full weight of your actions.

They did not want you to be able to pat yourself on the back and go, "Well, at least I saved some of them!" You were SUPPOSED  to have a sick feeling in your stomach. You were SUPPOSED to be pissed that you had to go to such extreme measures to fight the Reapers.  And unless I miss my guess, you better get ready for more. The war with the reapers is not going to be roses and sunshine.

+1

[Endurium]

There's quite a bit of railroading in the main missions, such that P/R options don't matter too much.

We don't get a choice about helping Cerberus with the Collectors; we only get a few choices in how we go about doing it. Of course it's written such that Shepard and Cerberus have the same goals (or they overlap) so Shepard goes along with it until the end of ME2.

In Arrival I was annoyed when the so-called doctor interrupted my attempt to warn the Batarians (regardless of how futile that might've been), and then Bioware poured salt on the wound by not letting me try again after the wench got done blabbing. In any event, ME3 starts with a trial so we get railroaded into it. Thus P/R is quite limited.

To sum up, we don't get to determine which direction the main missions go; we do get to decide how we'll behave (to an extent) while doing those missions.

Modifié par Endurium, 19 avril 2011 - 07:35 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

You really like those glasses huh Arcian?

-Polite

[008Zulu]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I don't know. Look at the end of Escape from LA (Warning: spoilers for an unregarded movie that I happen to love but that no one else does.) Snake looks like he's totally been sucessfully used and manipulated by the people he hates, but then he manages to pull out a final "Screw you" to the universe, and create a world where people like Snake Plissken are apex predators. When he "turns off the world" with that global EMP, I think that's one of the most badass things in the history of cinema. And I think that Renegade in Mass Effect could be done in a similar way.

Let's say, at the very end, it seems like the alliance has you over a barrel.  But then it's revealed that all your previous decisions set up the perfect scenario to allow you to shift the seat of power in the Galaxy, and install yourself as the kind of goddam everything. Let's say the Renegades get a chance to kill everyone on the Citadel, make it look like the Reapers did it, and fly around the galaxy at the head of Cerberus's fleet, king of the only remaining goddam superpower in the galaxy.

I mean... I guess I don't understand what kind of ending Renegades want? If the Paragons "Best" ending is one where all the aliens love them and all the people whose lives they saved show up to give hugs, what do the Renegades want their equivalent to be? 

I always figured Snake flipped the switch because the batcrap insane President went, well, insane (something maybe about having unilateral control over a Doomsday Weapon and essentially holding the world hostage. I may be mistaken, Been many many years since I saw it.)

Maybe thats what the Renegades want. To do whatever they want and be worshiped as god-kings for it. If so, it says some fairly disturbing things about their mental health.

[Empiro]

I wonder what are the statistics that Bioware has for the survival of the various party members. I wouldn't be surprised if they based who's a squaddie in the next game at least partly on that.

[JediNg]

There IS a paragon option to not destroy the Bahak system. It's called, waiting2daysand4hoursafterlandingontheasteroid.

[Zeratul20]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

You really like those glasses huh Arcian?

-Polite

For some reason, I read: "you really like those asses, huh?"

Imagine my confusion.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Empiro wrote...

I wonder what are the statistics that Bioware has for the survival of the various party members. I wouldn't be surprised if they based who's a squaddie in the next game at least partly on that.

Possibly. The stats in general are that only 15% of your party dies, so 1-2 people on average. Even though some people die super often (Mordin), the average character is only dead in about 1.5% of all games. Even the people who can die really easily are probably not dead in more than 20% of games, though I may be wrong about that.

[Elite Midget]

Mesina2 wrote...

No need to be sexist @Elite Midget.

Me sexist? Did you miss the part where I complimented her to the best of my ability? There's nothing sexist in finding irony in that she is a she when I had assumed that she was a he all this time. It changes nothing besides that because I don't plan to treat her any differently than before if that's what you're implying.