303 réponses à ce sujet

[Baaleos]

centauri2002 wrote...

Baaleos wrote...


I agree that the Social Interactions between Player and NPC's in Origins was better than DA2.
Zevran - ' Thats quite an offer, especially coming from another man..... and here I was thinking it was a Grey Warden thing'

It is good character design, to create characters who have personalities of their own.
It is bad character design, to make characters adapt their personalities to appeal to the player.

Adaptive personalities, is more a feat good programming, than good writing.
We lost Ander's personality, because he is essentially programmed to be attracted to Hawke, no matter what.


Zevran, was wrote to be a durty beast, he was raised in a **** house...
He has a precident to be Bi-sexual.
Anders, Fenris, are designed to be Bi or gay, if the player fancies them - pretty much removing any of their own personality traits.

This means they pretty much have no sexuality of their own, they might as well be extensions of Hawke.

Okay, I was with you all the way until you got to the point where you linked a poor upbringing with Zevran's bisexuality. Ohoho, that's not going to sit well with some people. But, I'm sure that's not what you meant, right? 

What I mean, and this is all confirmed by in-game conversations etc

Zevran was bought up in a **** House, he had a back-story, and has been with Men and Women, and is very open about that.

Anders on the other hand, his back-story changes depending on your gender and whether you show interest in him.


In effect, Anders doesnt have a static back-story or history.
If your a male, who shows interest in him, he will have had relationships with male mages (Karl).
If your a female, who shows interest in him, I cant confirm, but I think his gay past is never mentioned.

A good character design, is writen down, and committed to.
Making a variable character design, that adapts to the player is 10x harder, and this is one of the reasons DA2 romances failed for me.

The Characters arent Gay or Bi, they are just programs that change depending on what you want from them.
Essentially, they dont have a choice in the matter....

[Leovigild]

Darth Executor wrote...
One is creating a realistic world.

A realistic World... Ehm... i tried to cast a spell like in Origins tomorrow, but it didn´t work properly. So i guess this kind is kinda unrealistic too, shall they put it out of the game either??

[sereture]

centauri2002 wrote...

Okay, I was with you all the way until you got to the point where you linked a poor upbringing with Zevran's bisexuality. Ohoho, that's not going to sit well with some people. But, I'm sure that's not what you meant, right? 

<-------- Some people.

You can be bisexual without being promiscuous or having serious problems. Just saying.

Modifié par sereture, 30 mars 2011 - 10:53 .

[EccentricSage]

Baaleos wrote...

I agree that the Social Interactions between Player and NPC's in Origins was better than DA2.
Zevran - ' Thats quite an offer, especially coming from another man..... and here I was thinking it was a Grey Warden thing'

It is good character design, to create characters who have personalities of their own.
It is bad character design, to make characters adapt their personalities to appeal to the player.

Adaptive personalities, is more a feat good programming, than good writing.
We lost Ander's personality, because he is essentially programmed to be attracted to Hawke, no matter what.


Zevran, was wrote to be a durty beast, he was raised in a **** house...
He has a precident to be Bi-sexual.
Anders, Fenris, are designed to be Bi or gay, if the player fancies them - pretty much removing any of their own personality traits.

This means they pretty much have no sexuality of their own, they might as well be extensions of Hawke.

I mostly agree with you.  I think it was a worthy experiment, but it would be far more impressive if we could have more than four romancable characters, each with distinctive sexual identities, including a gay-only or lesbian-only character, some bisexuals, some bi-curious, some streight... I think that would make the game feel so REAL.

I do have to point out that bisexuality is not necessarily 'caused' by anything.  Most people just 'are what they are', and how they are braught up merely impacts their ability to accept themselves, as well as complexes that can form.  No question being bisexual had to have helped Zevran survive that upbringing, though, or that such an upbringing reinforced his sexual identity.  One of the things I love about Zevran is how he was used and abused and devalued his whole life, and his reaction to that was not to mope, but to learn to use all that abuse as a source of his own strength and as a reafirmation of his right to exist and to be himself.  The way he uses other's feelings about his sexuality and their insecurities to manipulate them is just brilliant.

[Leovigild]

sereture wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Okay, I was with you all the way until you got to the point where you linked a poor upbringing with Zevran's bisexuality. Ohoho, that's not going to sit well with some people. But, I'm sure that's not what you meant, right? 

<-------- Some people.

You can be bisexual without being promiscuous or having serious problems. Just saying.

ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

Imagina the Conversation btw. Mainchar and NPC:

MC: "Hi"

NPC: "Hi"

MC: "How are you?"

NPC: "Oh thanks, feeling fine."

MC: "Fine? No serious Problems?"

NPC: "Ehm no thanks, just feeling fine."

MC: "Nothing? No former lovers stalking you, no bad Mage hunting you, no nasty relative heading for your Money?"

NPC: "No, everythings fine..."

MC: "So there are no relating Quests at all?"

NPC: "Not that i knew sorry..."

MC: "..."

Modifié par Leovigild, 30 mars 2011 - 11:04 .

[Centauri2002]

Leovigild wrote...

ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

Imagina the Conversation btw. Mainchar and NPC:

MC: "Hi"

NPC: "Hi"

MC: "How are you?"

NPC: "Oh thanks, feeling fine."

MC: "Fine? No serious Problems?"

NPC: "Ehm no thanks, just feeling fine."

MC: "Nothing? No former lovers stalking you, no bad Mage hunting you, no nasty relative heading for your Money?"

NPC: "No, everythings fine..."

MC: "So there are no relating Quests at all?"

NPC: "Not that i knew sorry..."

MC: "..."

Okay, this made me giggle.

It's true that character flaws are what makes them interesting but the point was, that flaw does not need to dictate what the character's sexuality is. Just because a character is promiscuous and had a rough childhood, does not mean they have to be bisexual. Not that I'm saying that's the case with the characters here, I was just pointing out the common assumption.

Modifié par centauri2002, 30 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[sereture]

Leovigild wrote...

ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

I agree with that.

It's just annoying to read something along the lines of "Character X can't be bi, because there's nothing in his/her past that explains it!".

[Leovigild]

sereture wrote...

Leovigild wrote...

ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

I agree with that.

It's just annoying to read something along the lines of "Character X can't be bi, because there's nothing in his/her past that explains it!".

Ok thats a point, i thougt u meant, that not all of  the chars that are bi in the game should have problems.

Centauri2002: Ok this is true.

SO let´s summarize: Not every Bisexual has Problems, and Problem don´t make automatically Bisexual. And: Character Flaws belong to a game but don´t relate with Bisexuality. <--- everyone agree with this?

Modifié par Leovigild, 30 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[EccentricSage]

sereture wrote...

Leovigild wrote...

ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

I agree with that.

It's just annoying to read something along the lines of "Character X can't be bi, because there's nothing in his/her past that explains it!".

I agree, though I think that sometimes we are too quick to assume that is what a person meant.  In this case, I really don't think it was even meant that way.  Political Corectness can be tyrany all it's own. 

The fellow who's name I'm forgetting meant that a person's sexuality should be a static part of who they are, linked with their past.  If it changes based upon what the PC wants/is, then that makes the character lack his or her own identity to some degree. 

The way I see it, they could have simply made it so that one of the guys is canon bi, and the other is not, but maybe is surprised to find you are his exception, after some seduction/emotional development goes on.  It should factor into their identity, though.

[Baaleos]

It's just annoying to read something along the lines of "Character X can't be bi, because there's nothing in his/her past that explains it!".

Im not saying that Character X has to have some trauma in his past to make him BI.

Im saying, that its weird how Character X gets turned into a BI Character depending on Player Choices, irrespective of Character X's history.

If Person A is straight as a nail, is married with kids and all sorts of stuff,
hes not going to turn Bi-sexual or Gay, just because Person B says the right thing.

If he was receptive to any offer that Person B made, then that would show that there was some sort of Bisexual nature in Person A to begin with.


But from Dragon Age 2, we cannot tell this.
Anders is straight as a nail if your female,
Anders is a little bit of a ninny, whos slept around with a few guys if your male.

Fenris is hard as nails for both sexes,
But we have no information to identify whether he has been gay or bi in his past.

In short - The characters are too adaptive, they have no personalities of their own, since they react to the players actions too much, essentially trying to give the player what the player wants.
Because of that, we lose character personality.

I apologize if I gave the impression that you can only be bisexual if you grew up in a Wh0re House, (although, I think it helps).
What I was trying to show, was that with Zevran, its easier to believe that he is Bi-sexual, because he 'tells' us about his experience growing up in a Wh0re House, and about how he played around with all sorts of people.

The closest we get to that in DA2,
is Anders saying
'I was lonely, so I used to play with Karl'
Not really in depth character development, especially if you change your gender to female, and then all of a sudden, hes straight, and he 'Never played with Karl'.

[0x30A88]

Fire the CEO? Good luck!

[aftohsix]

Some of you people suck. So hard. How is this thread not locked? It has nothing to do with DA2.

[Tirigon]

blacqout wrote...

They should stop catering to everyone under the sun as soon as they stop catering to you. i suppose.

Truer words were never spoken. (except for Yoda´s of course)

That being said, I totally support Gaiders inclusion of same-sex content, and no, he should NOT get fired.

In fact, I feel that Gaider is the only talented one among the DA2 team. They should rather fire everyone except him and give him a few good developers WHO KNOW WHAT AN RPG IS!!! so that he can create the amazing sequel DAO deserves, instead of this ....mistake... DA2.

[Russalka]

People flirt. People get rejected. People hurt. Sexuality does not matter.

Get over it. God, I am getting so tired repeating this in every thread that comes up about it.
There are even more unrealistic things people could whine about in the game, why must sexuality be made into an issue?

They give everyone as many options as possible, yet still people whine. *sigh*

Modifié par Russalka, 30 mars 2011 - 12:16 .

[Khayness]

Remove ****ing romances from future BioWare games, problem solved.

Awakening was good in that part.

[sereture]

Baaleos wrote...

Im not saying that Character X has to have some trauma in his past to make him BI.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to target you, just stating a general annoyance.
I fail at forums...

Baaleos wrote...
But from Dragon Age 2, we cannot tell this.
Anders is straight as a nail if your female,
Anders is a little bit of a ninny, whos slept around with a few guys if your male.

Do we KNOW that?
Just because he doesn't talk about it with fHawke, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Baaleos wrote...
Fenris is hard as nails for both sexes,
But we have no information to identify whether he has been gay or bi in his past.

Or straight...

I think of Fenris as the kind who falls for the person, not just the body.

Baaleos wrote...
In short - The characters are too adaptive, they have no personalities of their own, since they react to the players actions too much, essentially trying to give the player what the player wants.
Because of that, we lose character personality.

I don't feel like that at all, but I can see why some people might think so.
Perhaps sexuality just doesn't matter that much for me?

Baaleos wrote...
I apologize if I gave the impression that you can only be bisexual if you grew up in a Wh0re House, (although, I think it helps).

It probably makes it easier to realize and accept it.


My point was that really, you don't have to talk about it, or for that sake HAVE any past experience, to be bisexual.

Modifié par sereture, 30 mars 2011 - 12:29 .

[Finnigan McBonk]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Darth Executor wrote...

Reading comprehension fail?

Reading a post prior to responding to it takes far too much time and energy.

Yes, from this point forth, please include an icon with each post: troll, heart, or a photo of Ricky Gervais. That way, I wont have to actually read to understand the content.

[steve1945]

I signed so hard that one could say it was a "double" signed production.

Also Mike Laidlaw deserves honorable mention for the headsmans block.

[Russalka]

Why sign this ignorant drivel?

[steve1945]

Its simple my good forum poster.

Because, I can!

[tez19]

Wow, I hate humanity.

[steve1945]

tez19 wrote...

Wow, I hate humanity.

Welcome to the club. Drinks are in the pool hall. Snacks are in the cigar lounge

[Tirigon]

Leovigild wrote...


ok but a RPG-Char without serious Problems would  be kinda... uninteresting.

Imagina the Conversation btw. Mainchar and NPC:

MC: "Hi"

NPC: "Hi"

MC: "How are you?"

NPC: "Oh thanks, feeling fine."

MC: "Fine? No serious Problems?"

NPC: "Ehm no thanks, just feeling fine."

MC: "Nothing? No former lovers stalking you, no bad Mage hunting you, no nasty relative heading for your Money?"

NPC: "No, everythings fine..."

MC: "So there are no relating Quests at all?"

NPC: "Not that i knew sorry..."

MC: "..."

Characters without problems can give you quests too....


MC: "Nothing? No former lovers stalking you, no bad Mage hunting you, no nasty relative heading for your Money?"

NPC: "No, everythings fine..."

MC: "So there are no relating Quests at all?"

NPC: "Well I guess we could do something, if you need exp. What about.... collecting some flowers?"

MC: "We can do that. I suppose we shall be ambushed by darkspawn and abominations and bloodmages when we reach Kirkwall´s only flower meadow so we can even loot something!"

*MC and NPC go to the meadow, where they are jumped by a huuuuge amount of bloodmages, abominations and darkspawn. Some templars attack, too, just because F*CK IT. After the endless waves are defeated, a huge bloodmage-abominational darkspawntemplar appears*

Bloodmagedarkspawntemplarabomination: "HARHARHAR you have awakened me from my slumber! Now I shall go out and destroy the universe, and NOTHING shall stop me!!!!!!!!"

MC: "BUTTONAWESOME!!!!"

*after an epic fight [and several waves of spawning reinforcements] the monster is slain, the MC loots a legendary sword off its corps and MC + NPC go back to the NPC´s house to talk about it*

NPC: "See we don´t need personal problems or a traumatizing childhood to reach pointless filler combat."

MC: "Yea it was all right. Oh SH!T, we forgot the flowers......"

NPC: "Same again?"






See? It is not worse than most quests in DA2!

[Joush]

I think Baaleos is missing the point.

Anders, Fenris, Merrel and (to a much, much lesser extent) Isabella aren't defined by their sexuality. If they prefer men or women only has the smallest effect on how they act. If they become a PC's romantic partner, their story changes, and it matters more, but generally speaking they have far more powerful overriding concerns, like Fenris's wariness of magic and conflict with himself, Merrel's dark side and outcast status and Anders being a petulant, unlikeable child I've been trying to kick out of the party and kill for TWO GAMES NOW. STOP HAVING HIM SHOW UP.

With the (gigantic) exception of Anders, the NPC's manage to be interesting and their sexuality is a part of what makes them who they are, but only a small part of their overall personality, much many like real people.

[Shawn Ogg]

These kind of petitions born of rage and without base only serve to prove how childish people can be.