110 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Silmane wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

The seemingly easy destruction of the relay did seem a bit silly to me too. I find it hard to believe that big asteroids haven't ever hit a relay before. And then there's the whole story about the Mu Relay in ME1 being lost for the very reason that a sun went supernova and merely pushed it away without damaging it. It just doesn't gel.

Also, again, this seems to just neuter the whole point of the original game somewhat. If The Reapers could just so easily have entered the system via this one relay, why didn't they earlier? Why do all the stuff they did in ME1 at all if it really is as simple as Arrival suggests it was? This was the type of BS I was worried about in ME3 after seeing the initial teaser to be honest.

DERP. What's better, magically appearing at the central heart of galactic government, or slowly crawling through the edges of the Milky Way?

Moreover, they can't ENTER the system through the relay, they're flying to the system to USE the relay to fly to OTHER systems.

Sometimes I wonder how you people get dressed in the morning....

I was going to respond to Terror's post but I just deleted it all. 

Reapers couldn't get Citadel activated, we killed Sovereign, ME franchise over, stuck in 'dark space' forever. 

"Being trapped in dark space" doesn't make any sense when dealing with a race of machines who are over 37 million years old. A whole group of machines with FTL drives. We're only delaying the invasion. 

They didn't use Alpha Relay to start with because it wouldn't be the element of surprise. A lot of relays are guarded. They would alert others of the Reapers. It's clearly shown that Reapers aren't invincible. 

I dunno. I guess it feels like since they didn't get through the citadel, any other means makes ME1 pointless and I don't understand that thinking at all.

The point is that the narrative unfolds within the timeframe of Shepard's military career. That's a very small window of opportunity for machine beings that have existed for millions of years, and nap for 50,000+ years at a time. 

Could they get back given enough time with FTL? Sure. Even without FTL. The problem is Shepard would no longer be alive to see it--that's the external time limit being imposed upon them which screws everything else up. 

[archurban]

mrsph wrote...

I assume relays normally just deflect asteroids or meteors when they get too close.

Hell, you can see it trying to do it before it gets hit and explodes.

yeah, but I guess that this relay is very old one comparing to others. so it doesn't have that kind of defense system. that's why it is possible to blow up. 

[Silmane]

marshalleck wrote...

Silmane wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

The seemingly easy destruction of the relay did seem a bit silly to me too. I find it hard to believe that big asteroids haven't ever hit a relay before. And then there's the whole story about the Mu Relay in ME1 being lost for the very reason that a sun went supernova and merely pushed it away without damaging it. It just doesn't gel.

Also, again, this seems to just neuter the whole point of the original game somewhat. If The Reapers could just so easily have entered the system via this one relay, why didn't they earlier? Why do all the stuff they did in ME1 at all if it really is as simple as Arrival suggests it was? This was the type of BS I was worried about in ME3 after seeing the initial teaser to be honest.

DERP. What's better, magically appearing at the central heart of galactic government, or slowly crawling through the edges of the Milky Way?

Moreover, they can't ENTER the system through the relay, they're flying to the system to USE the relay to fly to OTHER systems.

Sometimes I wonder how you people get dressed in the morning....

I was going to respond to Terror's post but I just deleted it all. 

Reapers couldn't get Citadel activated, we killed Sovereign, ME franchise over, stuck in 'dark space' forever. 

"Being trapped in dark space" doesn't make any sense when dealing with a race of machines who are over 37 million years old. A whole group of machines with FTL drives. We're only delaying the invasion. 

They didn't use Alpha Relay to start with because it wouldn't be the element of surprise. A lot of relays are guarded. They would alert others of the Reapers. It's clearly shown that Reapers aren't invincible. 

I dunno. I guess it feels like since they didn't get through the citadel, any other means makes ME1 pointless and I don't understand that thinking at all.

The point is that the narrative unfolds within the timeframe of Shepard's military career. That's a very small window of opportunity for machine beings that have existed for millions of years, and nap for 50,000+ years at a time. 

Could they get back given enough time with FTL? Sure. Even without FTL. The problem is Shepard would no longer be alive to see it--that's the external time limit being imposed upon them which screws everything else up. 

Yeah, it does unfold through Shepard's military career, through his tenure with Cerberus and eventually an independant Spectre or one man out in space with his back being covered by Anderson and Hackett. 

Humans can live up to 150 in the ME universe and Shepard was brought back from the dead with who knows what kind of enhancements to extend his life. 

I'm not saying they will let Shepard go years and years before the Reapers show up, because Bioware will let the Reapers into the galaxy through something other than FTL. Wormholes, etc. Who knows. 

There was no reason for them to use Alpha Relay until now. None.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Terror_K wrote...

The seemingly easy destruction of the relay did seem a bit silly to me too. I find it hard to believe that big asteroids haven't ever hit a relay before. And then there's the whole story about the Mu Relay in ME1 being lost for the very reason that a sun went supernova and merely pushed it away without damaging it. It just doesn't gel.

Also, again, this seems to just neuter the whole point of the original game somewhat. If The Reapers could just so easily have entered the system via this one relay, why didn't they earlier? Why do all the stuff they did in ME1 at all if it really is as simple as Arrival suggests it was? This was the type of BS I was worried about in ME3 after seeing the initial teaser to be honest.

I'm surprised Terror. I saw other people say this but I expected you to remember more of ME 1. The Reapers wanted to come in through the Citadel because it has recors of inhabbited systems. The Reapers can very easily fly in there with the Keeper signal gather and go on an easy reaping. However the Keeper signal failed and Sovereign investigated. He tried to open the Citadel path manually after discovering the Protheans role in all of that. that's why they didn't immeadiately fly to the blasted Alpha Relay. They are machines, they used their first plan that always worked and then it failed. After that they head towards the fall back plan of the Alpha Relay. It makes perfect sense if you listen to both games. Seeing as how you love ME 1 so much I am dumbfounded by how you frogt the point of the Reapers arriving at the Citadel first.

Also the Mu Relay. Has anyone ever payed attention to where in the systems a Mass Relay usually is? At the edge of it. I would imagine if the Relay were in the direct center of a super nova it would blow up. However it is on the edge of a system. I don't even know if the Nova Energy directly hit the Relay. Even if it did being so far from the center of the blast it's hard to tell how the slightly disapated nova blast energy would react to the Mass Effect field emitted by the Relay. After all Mass Effect fields do deflect and absorb energy a lot better than Kinetic energy. 

The asteroid in Arrival seemed to hit the Relay and cause part of it to snap. This would probably cause the core of the relay to overload. The Relay did seem to be trying to divert the Asteroid but failed to. I'm not saying my science is sound or perfect but we simply don't know exactly what the composition of Relays is. I'm just saying it's not impossible to fathom why one destroyed the relay and the other didn't. Besides the basic science there are simply too many varriables we don't know of. I guess the point of the Relay thing is that neither of us know exactly how they work, and I don't think they ever mentioned whether or not the actual Nova blast touched the Relay. It's all speculation really.

Finally. None of us know if another Reelay has ever blown up. The last Repaer cycle was 50,000 years ago. One could have blown up a long time ago. I don't see why some people seem to know no Relay has ever been blown up before.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[KainrycKarr]

Op's post was a nonsensical rant and petty nitpicking, those plotholes are barely there. I disagree completely about the squadmate bit, even though the financial reasoning is obvious.

[Gill Kaiser]

Terror_K wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Moreover, they can't ENTER the system through the relay, they're flying to the system to USE the relay to fly to OTHER systems.

Uh... yes they were. They were going to enter through that relay first, and then use it to go to other systems. Otherwise destroying it wouldn't have stopped them coming at all, since they were literally hours away from actually arriving. If they're not coming by relay and just flying into the system then they would have. Destroying it wouldn't be such a big deal if they were only using it to get to other systems and that was it: The Reapers can use any relay to get to other systems, just like you can. The only difference was that that relay can go to any system as opposed to being limited, so they can strike at multiple targets all at once.

Do you have any idea how far apart individual relays are? Travelling between them using FTL drives takes months or years. The Reapers are approaching the galaxy's edge using conventional FTL propulsion and the Alpha Relay is simply the outermost relay, the closest to the area of Dark Space that the Reapers lie dormant. Because it's their closest standard relay, the Reapers boosted its power somewhat, to make it easier for them to invade multiple systems quickly (including the Citadel's system), just in case they ever had to resort to these methods.

Think about it. If the Reapers were due to arrive through the Relay, why would there even be a countdown as they got closer? Relay travel is instantaneous. It's precisely the fact that they're having to travel without a Relay that was the reason why Alpha had to be destroyed.

[Terror_K]

You seem to be missing my point, Sparda. I get why The Reapers wanted to come in via The Citadel as opposed to the Alpha Relay... it's just that I think the Alpha Relay is a pretty weaksauce backdoor alternative. It just seems too simple and only time is a factor. I was expecting something a little more inventive and complex than what we got in Arrival... especially from The Reapers.

Re: The Mu Relay, we know that it was pushed well out of its natural orbit by the sun going supernova and that it was lost because of the hot gas and dust that was carried in the supernova's wake masking it. That's about it from what I can remember. So you may be right regarding the relay there. I'm willing to let it slide, but it just seemed rather jarring and sudden when I saw it, and like something that was originally impossible could be quite doable now (i.e. if a small group of batarians can do what they did in BDtS with an asteroid, then they could do the same to a relay). It just seems that relays have gone from being indestructible to quite fragile now.

[Terror_K]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Do you have any idea how far apart individual relays are? Travelling between them using FTL drives takes months or years. The Reapers are approaching the galaxy's edge using conventional FTL propulsion and the Alpha Relay is simply the outermost relay, the closest to the area of Dark Space that the Reapers lie dormant. Because it's their closest standard relay, the Reapers boosted its power somewhat, to make it easier for them to invade multiple systems quickly (including the Citadel's system), just in case they ever had to resort to these methods.

Think about it. If the Reapers were due to arrive through the Relay, why would there even be a countdown as they got closer? Relay travel is instantaneous. It's precisely the fact that they're having to travel without a Relay that was the reason why Alpha had to be destroyed.

Again, they had to have been coming through the relay. The reason it was taking them a while was because they needed to be able to connect with it from wherever they were. If they really were just travelling in using FTL and didn't need to connect to the relay to enter the system they would have just arrived anyway: they literally would have been right there. The Reapers were due to arrive any moment... if all they were using was FTL, how was destroying the relay going to stop them from arriving in the system?

[Sparda Stonerule]

Terror_K wrote...

You seem to be missing my point, Sparda. I get why The Reapers wanted to come in via The Citadel as opposed to the Alpha Relay... it's just that I think the Alpha Relay is a pretty weaksauce backdoor alternative. It just seems too simple and only time is a factor. I was expecting something a little more inventive and complex than what we got in Arrival... especially from The Reapers.

Re: The Mu Relay, we know that it was pushed well out of its natural orbit by the sun going supernova and that it was lost because of the hot gas and dust that was carried in the supernova's wake masking it. That's about it from what I can remember. So you may be right regarding the relay there. I'm willing to let it slide, but it just seemed rather jarring and sudden when I saw it, and like something that was originally impossible could be quite doable now (i.e. if a small group of batarians can do what they did in BDtS with an asteroid, then they could do the same to a relay). It just seems that relays have gone from being indestructible to quite fragile now.

I guess I can agree it is quite sudden. I won't dispute that. I know why you are upset about things and I won't try and convince you otherwise. I just prefer people not say things are and are not facts. No one knows everything, I just hope ME 3 is closer to what you want. Because, well I like some of your ideas. Well that and some elements really should return in my opinion. I'm glad we could be civil about this whole thing, and I'm sorry I missed your point.

[Romantiq]

Seems pretty easy to destroy whole systems like that....
Lure reaper fleet to come to earth and blow up your own mass relay sup.

Modifié par Romantiq, 30 mars 2011 - 03:44 .

[Terror_K]

Romantiq wrote...

Seems pretty easy to destroy whole systems like that....
Lure reaper fleet to come to earth and blow up your own mass relay sup.

That's the other thing. After the events on Arrival pretty much the whole galaxy are going to know what the effects of destroying a mass relay are. What's the bet some batarians end up trying to get an almost identical form of revenge on Sol now?

[ewauksonian]

I think the Alpha Relay was the Reapers' "Plan B" when they couldn't use the Relay in the Citadel. Now that it's been destroyed, they might have a "Plan C", and it might be at the Sol System. It might have delayed the Reapers, but at what cost? To who? Questiosn abound. 

Modifié par ewauksonian, 30 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[Marta Rio]

Terror_K wrote...
Again, they had to have been coming through the relay. The reason it was taking them a while was because they needed to be able to connect with it from wherever they were. If they really were just travelling in using FTL and didn't need to connect to the relay to enter the system they would have just arrived anyway: they literally would have been right there. The Reapers were due to arrive any moment... if all they were using was FTL, how was destroying the relay going to stop them from arriving in the system?

The impression I got from Kenson's dialogue was that they were literally right there, about to arrive in the system using FTL.  However, because the Alpha relay was destroyed they now have to fly to the next closest relay to get anywhere useful, which using FTL will take the "few months to a few years" that Kenson mentions.  (Whether one thinks this is silly or not is definitely debatable.)

Also, the Alpha relay apparently is unique in that it has the potential to send more things farther across the galaxy.  So not only did you destroy the Reapers' closest transportation option, the next closest relay probably also doesn't have these unique features.

So technically, yes, the've already "arrived" at the edge of the galaxy, they just haven't arrived at a mass relay yet.  All Shep's done is delayed the inevitable.

Modifié par Marta Rio, 30 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[ewauksonian]

Marta Rio wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
Again, they had to have been coming through the relay. The reason it was taking them a while was because they needed to be able to connect with it from wherever they were. If they really were just travelling in using FTL and didn't need to connect to the relay to enter the system they would have just arrived anyway: they literally would have been right there. The Reapers were due to arrive any moment... if all they were using was FTL, how was destroying the relay going to stop them from arriving in the system?

The impression I got from Kenson's dialogue was that they were literally right there, about to arrive in the system.  However, because the Alpha relay was destroyed they now have to fly to the next closest relay to get anywhere useful, which using FTL will take the "few months to a few years" that Kenson mentions.  (Whether one thinks this is silly or not is definitely debatable.)

Also, the Alpha relay apparently is unique in that it has the potential to send more things farther across the galaxy.  So not only did you destroy the Reapers' closest transportation option, the next closest relay probably also doesn't have these unique features.

So technically, yes, the've already "arrived" at the edge of the galaxy, they just haven't arrived at a mass relay yet.

That's the impression I got to... basically, again, the Reaper's "Plan B". Now Shepard has destroyed it, they need to go to "Plan C". 

[JKoopman]

The main issue that caught my attention in Arrival was, how the hell was an asteroid the size of a small moon able to accelerate and reach the relay in the space of about an hour and a half? Realistically, moving something that massive should take years if not decades. For the purposes of gameplay I could stretch my belief to accept months or perhaps even weeks. But an hour and a half!? That asteroid would've literally had to be parked right next to the relay.

BDtS was far more believable in that regard. At least there, the asteroid was in a high orbit around a planet. All it would take is a small nudge to degrade it's orbit and it would begin falling toward the planet (of course, the question there becomes how shutting off the engines somehow stopped the asteroid's decent, but as they never show that part it can be assumed that they simply fired engines on the opposite side or towed it into a higher orbit after Shepard left).

Modifié par JKoopman, 30 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[Eternz]

Terror_K wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Do you have any idea how far apart individual relays are? Travelling between them using FTL drives takes months or years. The Reapers are approaching the galaxy's edge using conventional FTL propulsion and the Alpha Relay is simply the outermost relay, the closest to the area of Dark Space that the Reapers lie dormant. Because it's their closest standard relay, the Reapers boosted its power somewhat, to make it easier for them to invade multiple systems quickly (including the Citadel's system), just in case they ever had to resort to these methods.

Think about it. If the Reapers were due to arrive through the Relay, why would there even be a countdown as they got closer? Relay travel is instantaneous. It's precisely the fact that they're having to travel without a Relay that was the reason why Alpha had to be destroyed.

Again, they had to have been coming through the relay. The reason it was taking them a while was because they needed to be able to connect with it from wherever they were. If they really were just travelling in using FTL and didn't need to connect to the relay to enter the system they would have just arrived anyway: they literally would have been right there. The Reapers were due to arrive any moment... if all they were using was FTL, how was destroying the relay going to stop them from arriving in the system?

They were always going to arrive in the system there was no way of stopping them from getting there, what Shepard needed to do was wipe out the relay closest to dark space, the codex said kenson established this was one of the oldest relays in existance so i guess the reapers made more powerful due to its proximity to them, the point is now they are trapped in that system, and must fly to another relay, which is why it will take months and years. I guess the title Arrival works because they have arrived at the end, they are now in the milky way, you just shut down the 1 relay they were planning to use to get around.

[PurePareidolia]

I love how we went to all that trouble to recruit Thane and Kasumi, and yet they are utterly useless here. Hell, sending them in alone would have been more efficient than Shepard going in. Kasumi can turn invisible and Thane can do his magical off screen teleportation thing. And yet we send in the guy who's talent is killing a lot of people as visibly as possible.
Man, sure am glad the entire point of the game was to get a team of SPECIALISTS who SPECIALIZE at certain things so we can have them not do things they are ESPECIALLY skilled at.

I mean, Thane's on the cover and he's used neither in the Suicide mission nor here. At least the Shadow Broker compliments you for bringing him along on that mission as though it was somehow an astute choice. You couldn't even mention it to them here.

[piemanz]

@Terror_K

The whole point of using the citadel relay in ME1 was that they can travel straight from dark space to the heart of the galaxy, the fact that shep destroyed it meant the reapers then had to travel the whole distance at FTL.

For someone who's so hung up about plot holes and story telling i would think you would at least know some of the basics.

Terror_K wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Moreover, they can't ENTER the system through the relay, they're flying to the system to USE the relay to fly to OTHER systems.

Uh... yes they were. They were going to enter through that relay first, and then use it to go to other systems. Otherwise destroying it wouldn't have stopped them coming at all, since they were literally hours away from actually arriving. If they're not coming by relay and just flying into the system then they would have. Destroying it wouldn't be such a big deal if they were only using it to get to other systems and that was it: The Reapers can use any relay to get to other systems, just like you can. The only difference was that that relay can go to any system as opposed to being limited, so they can strike at multiple targets all at once.

No, they wasn't entering through the alpha relay at all.It's quite clearly stated that they are at the edge of the galaxy and would be at the alpha relay in 2 days.Once there they would use that relayy to travel anywhere in the galaxy.

With the alpha relay destroyed it just means that they have to now travel a greater distance at FTL to get to the next nearest relay.

Modifié par piemanz, 30 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[armass]

It's too bad Shepard didnt time it that the relay would have exploded just as the reapers arrived, who knows how many Reapers the explosion would have destroyed or damaged in the wake, giving us better fighting chances.

[Spectreshadow]

armass wrote...

It's too bad Shepard didnt time it that the relay would have exploded just as the reapers arrived, who knows how many Reapers the explosion would have destroyed or damaged in the wake, giving us better fighting chances.

That is taking a huge risk if a Reaper managed to get through before it got destroyed.

[Spectreshadow]

piemanz wrote...

@Terror_K

The whole point of using the citadel relay in ME1 was that they can travel straight from dark space to the heart of the galaxy, the fact that shep destroyed it meant the reapers then had to travel the whole distance at FTL.

For someone who's so hung up about plot holes and story telling i would think you would at least know some of the basics.

Terror_K wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Moreover, they can't ENTER the system through the relay, they're flying to the system to USE the relay to fly to OTHER systems.

Uh... yes they were. They were going to enter through that relay first, and then use it to go to other systems. Otherwise destroying it wouldn't have stopped them coming at all, since they were literally hours away from actually arriving. If they're not coming by relay and just flying into the system then they would have. Destroying it wouldn't be such a big deal if they were only using it to get to other systems and that was it: The Reapers can use any relay to get to other systems, just like you can. The only difference was that that relay can go to any system as opposed to being limited, so they can strike at multiple targets all at once.

No, they wasn't entering through the alpha relay at all.It's quite clearly stated that they are at the edge of the galaxy and would be at the alpha relay in 2 days.Once there they would use that relayy to travel anywhere in the galaxy.

With the alpha relay destroyed it just means that they have to now travel a greater distance at FTL to get to the next nearest relay.

This is just from memory but wasn't the local cluster kinda close to the viper nebula?

[Spectreshadow]

The only question I have is how fast the FTL travel is because you could potentially cover that distance in a matter of years if need be...

[Spectreshadow]

Also when you consider the size of a galaxy nevermind the universe that is pretty damn close.