328 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

A certain amount of stupidity is required on the part of the villains in order for the hero to prevail. The more powerful the villain in comparison to the hero, the more stupid they have to be.

[Ryuuken117]

From what I understand, the Citadel relay was the most effective entry point. Had the Reapers entered the galaxy from there, they'd have access to the entire relay network, decapitate the center of civilized trade and government, (probably) eliminate the majority of the galaxy's armed forces and start harvesting in a logical pattern radiating from a single point in space, a point that is relatively equidistant from all corners of the galaxy. By preventing the Reapers from getting through the Citadel relay, the Protheans and Shepard have forced them to enter the galaxy from a tactically disadvantageous position.

[Mir5]

Pwener2313 wrote...

There's also a thing called limit.


BIOWARE1: "Hey, I have a great idea, let's make ME realistic!

BIOWARE 2: "Yeah! Shepard dying from one shot when shields go down!"

BIOWARE 3: "And the Reapers getting here in aproximately...... 300,000,000 years!"

BIOWARE 1 & 2: "YEEEEEEEEAH!"

MMyeah, and then BIOWARE 1 & 2 would move on to find more relateable plot and gameplay solutions than just the constant abuse of deus ex machina.

I am not saying ME should be ArmA, but realism is a good starting point. Do remember that realism does not exclude awesomeness.

[Ryuuken117]

Mir5 wrote...

MMyeah, and then BIOWARE 1 & 2 would move on to find more relateable plot and gameplay solutions than just the constant abuse of deus ex machina.

I am not saying ME should be ArmA, but realism is a good starting point. Do remember that realism does not exclude awesomeness.

Mir5, I think you're confusing realism with versimilitude. The ME universe doesn't have to be necessarily realistic, but it has to be believable in the face of in-depth scrutiny.

[SmokePants]

Obviously, the Reapers were sitting 2 years out from that system and obviously, they would have preferred to capture the Citadel in a surprise attack. What's the problem here?

[Gabey5]

Plan B. a hyper intelligent machine race is capable of it

[Kingthlayer]

It's never stated exactly how far the Reapers are away from Citadel space. The original Reaper plan was to get in, clear the citadel of garbage and then find out all the information stored on the citadel to find other planets.

Now the Reapers have to attack head on and face resistance everywhere they go, And because of that they're now going to lose plenty of themselves. That's probably why they hate Shepard so much, not only was he instrumental in killing Sovereign, he's also now indirectly responsible for more Reaper deaths.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

four words: Prepare For Ludicrous Speed

[Marta Rio]

AcidRelic wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Or, an even more probable solution, they
weren't that far away to begin with. Think about this: if you were
robbing a building, would you rather teleport inside, grab what you
need, and teleport out? Or break down the door, work your way through
the building, revealing yourself to everyone.

Just because the Citadel is a better option, doesn't mean it's the only one.

^^This^^

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

It was never stated how far outside the galaxy the Reapers waited. It did take them 2 years to reach the very edge, and now it will take them even longer to reach the next closest relay.

What matters is that they've lost their advantage of surprise, and Shepard is actively looking for ways to prepare for them. Their method of using the Citadel has never failed until now.

Combined with ^^this^^

This Citadel entrance was optimal because they could lock down all other mass relays to keep the races apart and take their time to exterminate the universe, and keeping the races apart also keeps them from ganging up on the reapers and giving them a run for their money, and possibaly beating them, like what ME3 will do

This seems plausible to me.  Anyone want to tear holes in it and destroy my sense of well-being?

It still doesn't really explain the human reaper and the events of ME2.  But maybe the baby reaper was just a side scheme hatched by Harbinger because he had a couple of years to wait and was bored?

[Mir5]

Ryuuken117 wrote...

Mir5, I think you're confusing realism with versimilitude. The ME universe doesn't have to be necessarily realistic, but it has to be believable in the face of in-depth scrutiny.

Always learn new words. Good. That's mostly what I mean with realism, as there is a lot of things about "real" that we don't know about, so I find it fine to use "realistic" to describe "believeable".
Though I do defend my earlier words about how realism is a good starting point. It's okay to bend known laws from real life, but if you mess up too much it becomes alienating. And certain areas like psychology shouldn't be tampered with, unless you really know why and how you should make something surreal.

Modifié par Mir5, 29 mars 2011 - 11:49 .

[Sursion]

Marta Rio wrote...
It still doesn't really explain the human reaper and the events of ME2.  But maybe the baby reaper was just a side scheme hatched by Harbinger because he had a couple of years to wait and was bored?

It could of been a stall, but more than likely, the reapers are like the borg. They assimilate all the good things they find. Humanity killed Sovereign and foiled their plans. In return, the reapers tried assimilating them, to gain their obvious benefits.

[Iakus]

As near as I can determine:

Plan A, the one that always worked for the Reapers, was to hang out by a dark space relay just outside the edge of the galaxy.  A vanguard (Sovereign) would stay behind and send a signal to the Keepers to open the Citadel relay when the time was judged to be right.  Hilarity ensues.  Repeat every 40-50 thousand years.

Plan B: Somehow involved the Collectors building a new Reaper to do...something.  Punch the Citadel, maybe?  I dunno.  Shepard trashed that plan, so I guess it's moot now.

Plan C:  Reapers hoof it to the galaxy.  Dunno how far they had to travel, but it seems the "Alpha Relay" was one of the farthest out relays on the network.  And the closest one to the Reaper fleet.  Doing this is way inefficient for the Reapers, since they're invading Citadel Space from the outside rather than decapitating the galactic government and cutting off Relay travel for everyone else.  Now the Reapers have to fight an actual war.  One they still have a huge advantage in of course.

[008Zulu]

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

[Sursion]

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

Harbinger was directly controlling the collectors. The collectors started abducting human colonies immediately after Soveriegn was destroyed.

Your logic is flawed.

[IrishSpectre257]

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

If the Reapers didn't wake up until the end of ME2, the Collectors would never have been a threat. They were awake and ready to kill everyone during Saren's attack on the Citadel, and Sovereign likely sent a signal to Harbinger confirming the situation before it died.

Modifié par IrishSpectre257, 29 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[Ryuuken117]

Sursion wrote...

Harbinger was directly controlling the collectors. The collectors started abducting human colonies immediately after Soveriegn was destroyed.

Your logic is flawed.

The Collectors started abducting human colonies, yes, but the Reapers themselves were dormant (with the exception of Harbinger). While the Collectors are Reaper slaves, more like Husks than living beings, they're nonetheless able to operate in the absence of direct control from a Reaper, and were doing so for quite a long time.

[Anacronian Stryx]

It's never stated in ME 1 that the citadel is the ONLY way for the reapers, Hell the game even ends with shep saying "The reapers are still coming and I'm gonna find a way to fight them".

The citadel is a trap that's why the reapers built it, It's a perfect trap meant to make harvesting the galaxy easier.

[Kingthlayer]

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

I don't think the Reapers had a back up plan, and why would they.  This plan worked every time prior.  Sure the Protheans initially ****ed them over with the Keeper virus or whatever it is that stops them from responding.  But I don't think any Reaper would have doubted Sovereigns ability to do what needed to be done.

[Sursion]

Ryuuken117 wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Harbinger was directly controlling the collectors. The collectors started abducting human colonies immediately after Soveriegn was destroyed.

Your logic is flawed.

The Collectors started abducting human colonies, yes, but the Reapers themselves were dormant (with the exception of Harbinger). While the Collectors are Reaper slaves, more like Husks than living beings, they're nonetheless able to operate in the absence of direct control from a Reaper, and were doing so for quite a long time.

When does it ever say that they're NOT awake and moving towards the galaxy? If plan A failed, why would they just hang about and twiddle their thumbs? Why wouldn't they be able to move while Harbinger controls the General?

 You're twisting common sense just to win an argument.

Modifié par Sursion, 29 mars 2011 - 11:59 .

[neubourn]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

I don't think the Reapers had a back up plan, and why would they.  This plan worked every time prior.  Sure the Protheans initially ****ed them over with the Keeper virus or whatever it is that stops them from responding.  But I don't think any Reaper would have doubted Sovereigns ability to do what needed to be done.

Backup Plan or not, they realized their plan has faied, so had to find another way to complete their objectives. 

[SmokePants]

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

So, what you seem to be saying is that you won't be happy unless the Reaper plan had no holes or oversights and galactic civilization is truly doomed.

I don't accept FTL travel as ever being possible... ever. But I recognize that it's nice for science fiction to branch out of the solar system. Sometimes, you have to let go and allow a story to work or fail on its own merits, without transposing your own fair and unfair assumptions on everything.

[Ryuuken117]

When does it ever say that they're NOT awake and moving towards the galaxy? If plan A failed, why would they just hang about and twiddle their thumbs? Why wouldn't they be able to move while Harbinger controls the General?

 You're twisting common sense just to win an argument.

It's never stated that they're physically moving towards the galaxy. It's entirely possible that they were the entire time, and the sequence where Harbinger drifts towards them and activates them is some kind of flashback. I find that unlikely, however. I find it most probable that the Reapers only physically moving towards the galaxy at the end of ME2's Suicide Mission, and that they were twiddling their tentacles as they waited for Harbinger and their Collectors to finish their tests on human captives and thereby know whether or not it was worth harvesting the species instead of just converting them into Husks like they did to the Protheans.

[Anacronian Stryx]

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

No we just see them under way here

Don't know where you got that about "waking up".

[008Zulu]

In the finale video sequence you see all the Reapers (barring Harbinger if you want split hairs) lights turning on. A pretty solid indication that they were asleep.

The Reapers are machines, they think like machines. They wouldnt assume that their plan will go 100% every single time. The derelict Reaper where you got the IFF is proof that there will be species who can step up and give as good as they got.

Ingame when things are about to get hairy or if we think they are about to, we hit the quicksave just in case. While the Reapers dont have the benefit of a quicksave button, they would setup alternatives in case Plan A went south. Its one of those common sense things.