328 réponses à ce sujet

[DaBigDragon]

contown wrote...

I thought it would take them centuries, maybe more, to get to our galaxy without the citadel or a mass relay. Which is why the needed the citadel. Then out of nowhere in Arrival, they're 2 days away. It's never explained. Did they just turn on their engines and fly here in a few years? If it's that easy for them to get here, why did Sovereign  even bother?

This makes no sense to me. Did I completely miss something, or is this just a big plot hole?

The advantage of using the Citadel relay was the element of surprise and reserving massive amounts of power. Power that now has to be used to physically travel to the galaxy. Less power hopefully equals better chance for us to kill the Reapers.

[armass]

SmokePants wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

The Reapers didnt start their trek back in to the galaxy at the end of ME1, they all woke up at the end of ME2. And there are plenty of closer relays to the Alpha, look at the galaxy map from ME1.

I dont accept that the Citadel relay is a more convenient option. If they planned for the possibility of the Citadel being compromised, they would have a contingency plan for sealing the relays from an alternate point*. Thus rendering the whole concept of a "master" relay moot.

* If your thinking the Collector base, they would have locked down the Relays prior to or during ME2, especially at the end where it became apparent they were going to lose the base one way or the other.

So, what you seem to be saying is that you won't be happy unless the Reaper plan had no holes or oversights and galactic civilization is truly doomed.

I don't accept FTL travel as ever being possible... ever. But I recognize that it's nice for science fiction to branch out of the solar system. Sometimes, you have to let go and allow a story to work or fail on its own merits, without transposing your own fair and unfair assumptions on everything.

Concerning FTL, in the future who knows whats possible. They said flying machines were impossible at one time too.

[KainrycKarr]

The Reapers needed the Citadel for the following reasons;

1. It was the head of Galactic Civilization. Cutting off the head would be the quickest and most efficient way of conquering.
2. It had records of every know civilization and near-civilization, which is something the Reapers *definately* wanted. Afterall, wouldn't want to miss harvesting up some Yahg(SP?) right?
3. It was a plan that had, apparantly, worked flawless for many previous "harvests".

This easier plan was removed from the board(enter Commander Shepard)

So they choose plan B. Enter the Aratoht relay. According to Arrival, this relay gives the Reapers access to all other relays, making it an excellent alternate staging ground for a galactic conquest.

But, it does not house the seat of Galactic Civilization, and does not hold every bit of important and relevant information to anyone interested in conquering the galaxy, thus making it the alternative, but not the preferred method, of invasion.


*Not* a plothole.

What *IS* a plothole, is an asteroid destroying a relay whereas a supernova could not. That is the only blatant plothole to me.

[Anacronian Stryx]

KainrycKarr wrote...

What *IS* a plothole, is an asteroid destroying a relay whereas a supernova could not. That is the only blatant plothole to me.

If you're the right distance from a nuclear blast then all you will experience is getting pushed to the ground while again somebody could throw a rock at you and it might break your skull.

Distance and force is all that matters - If the relay is long enough away from the supernova then the shock wave have dissipated enough to just push it out of alignment while if somebody accelerate an big asteroid to enough velocity it will have enough kinetic energy to break a relay.

It's no plot hole just simple physics in action.

[MrFob]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

What *IS* a plothole, is an asteroid destroying a relay whereas a supernova could not. That is the only blatant plothole to me.

If you're the right distance from a nuclear blast then all you will experience is getting pushed to the ground while again somebody could throw a rock at you and it might break your skull.

Distance and force is all that matters - If the relay is long enough away from the supernova then the shock wave have dissipated enough to just push it out of alignment while if somebody accelerate an big asteroid to enough velocity it will have enough kinetic energy to break a relay.

It's no plot hole just simple physics in action.

It is strange though isn't it?
The other races were aound for thousands of years, traveling the mass relays. Some of them like the Salarians are extremely inquisitve and yet, up until now noone ever as much as scratched a mass relay if it is "that easy" to destroy one? Besides, with all the wars that were going on in that time and all the ruthless parties (like the Krogan or Turians) involved, no one ever used asteroid drops on relay as WMD? IMO It's a bit of a stretch whichever way you slice it.

EDIT: Oh, never mind, I just found the solution: If you read the codex entry to object rho,, which is embedded in the asteroid, you'll see that 1) it has an energies barrier that makes it practically indestructible itself and 2) in case of danger can draw on enormous amounts of energy (possible technology surpassing the protheans). So you are not just hauling a piece of rock at mass relay but possible a reaper made bomb or booby-trap. With that in mind, anything is possible.

Modifié par MrFob, 30 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[CroGamer002]

Magnus4096 wrote...



Here we go again.

This!

AcidRelic wrote...

Sursion wrote...

Or, an even more probable solution, they
weren't that far away to begin with. Think about this: if you were
robbing a building, would you rather teleport inside, grab what you
need, and teleport out? Or break down the door, work your way through
the building, revealing yourself to everyone.

Just because the Citadel is a better option, doesn't mean it's the only one.

^^This^^

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

It
was never stated how far outside the galaxy the Reapers waited. It did
take them 2 years to reach the very edge, and now it will take them even
longer to reach the next closest relay.

What matters is that they've lost their advantage of surprise,
and Shepard is actively looking for ways to prepare for them. Their
method of using the Citadel has never failed until now.

Combined with ^^this^^

This
Citadel entrance was optimal because they could lock down all other
mass relays to keep the races apart and take their time to exterminate
the universe, and keeping the races apart also keeps them from ganging
up on the reapers and giving them a run for their money, and possibaly
beating them, like what ME3 will do [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

And this

[GuardianAngel470]

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

It was never stated how far outside the galaxy the Reapers waited. It did take them 2 years to reach the very edge, and now it will take them even longer to reach the next closest relay.

What matters is that they've lost their advantage of surprise, and Shepard is actively looking for ways to prepare for them. Their method of using the Citadel has never failed until now.

Someone around here did the math and, using most likely the pythagorean theorem and an assumption of equadistance, came to the conclusion that, traveling at light speed, it would take thousands of years for the Reapers to reach the Milky Way.

This is based on the cinematic at the end of ME2 with the Reapers viewing the Galaxy from dark space.

Basically, since you can see the ENTIRE galaxy from the perspective of the leading reaper and the galaxy is 100,000 light years across (approximately), you can calculate the distance the Reapers are from the galaxy based on the field of view.

I can't remember the explanation and my best guess is that they guy used the Pyth. Theorem but I could be wrong. I didn't do the math myself.

[Anacronian Stryx]

MrFob wrote...
It is strange though isn't it?
The other races were aound for thousands of years, traveling the mass relays. Some of them like the Salarians are extremely inquisitve and yet, up until now noone ever as much as scratched a mass relay if it is "that easy" to destroy one? Besides, with all the wars that were going on in that time and all the ruthless parties (like the Krogan or Turians) involved, no one ever used asteroid drops on relay as WMD? IMO It's a bit of a stretch whichever way you slice it.

Thing is that you have to do the operation in enemy territory, find asteroid, build thruster facility(look at the size of the arrival base) and then accelerate it towards the relay, if you already have that much free roaming space in a enemy's system then why not drop it on the enemy's planet instead, If you're gonna use a accelerated asteroid as a WMD then that's the way to do it(like the Batarians tried in BdtS).

[MDT1]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

IrishSpectre257 wrote...

It was never stated how far outside the galaxy the Reapers waited. It did take them 2 years to reach the very edge, and now it will take them even longer to reach the next closest relay.

What matters is that they've lost their advantage of surprise, and Shepard is actively looking for ways to prepare for them. Their method of using the Citadel has never failed until now.

Someone around here did the math and, using most likely the pythagorean theorem and an assumption of equadistance, came to the conclusion that, traveling at light speed, it would take thousands of years for the Reapers to reach the Milky Way.

This is based on the cinematic at the end of ME2 with the Reapers viewing the Galaxy from dark space.

Basically, since you can see the ENTIRE galaxy from the perspective of the leading reaper and the galaxy is 100,000 light years across (approximately), you can calculate the distance the Reapers are from the galaxy based on the field of view.

I can't remember the explanation and my best guess is that they guy used the Pyth. Theorem but I could be wrong. I didn't do the math myself.

If we take it as cannon that the
destruction of the relay the only logical explanation is that the
reapers stayed quite close to the Milky Way and the "error"
was from Biowars side by showing them further away in deep space in
the cinematic for the purpose of getting a visual wow effect. It just
looks more menacing when the entire fleet looms over the galaxy like
a delay predator.

Also as many said the citadel wasn't the
fastest entry, it was just the strategical superior entry as they
could shut down the mass relays for the organics.

[Mir5]

Btw, how where exactly does dark space begin? Alpha relay is pretty close to the edge but there are still plenty (couple of thousands of light years worth) of stars further from the center axis of milky way. And how thick is the relay network?

Aw hell, I guess everything can be explained, but don't even the most zealous defenders find it a bit foolish that you actually have to solve how the story events could work? And stupidity for Reapers is a plot hole. Unless they turn out to be closer to some dumb VIs rather than actual AIs

Modifié par Mir5, 30 mars 2011 - 12:50 .

[Keltoris]

@OP, one does not simply Relay into the Galaxy.

They flew. It's taking a while; FTL is a nice, vague speed measurement after all.

Spuudle wrote...

I think if the theories are correct, we will find a way, eventually, in thousands of years. Besides, if we dont suss it out as a race, we are ultimately doomed.

Heat Death of the Universe. or Big Crunch. Doomed anyway.

[Hunt3rW0lf]

My impression is that they'd use either in-built Relays to travel the remaining distance to the Alpha Relay, or there's a Sub-Relay further out in Dark Space which they'd use to get to the Alpha Relay.

[NKKKK]

Plan A USe the Citadel Relay
Plan B Invade Citadel with Rachni
Plan C Same as above but with Geth
Plan D Have Slave race make a new reaper to help take back the Citadel and other nefarious purposes
Plan E High Tail to the edge of the galaxy and use the Alpha Relay
Plan F FUCCKKKKKKKKKKKK

[Nozybidaj]

contown wrote...

Did they just turn on their engines and fly here in a few years? If it's that easy for them to get here, why did Sovereign  even bother?

This makes no sense to me. Did I completely miss something, or is this just a big plot hole?

Pretty much.  They just kinda walked here I guess.  Yes it completely invalidates the ME1 plot, I don't think they care really.  I assume it also invalidates what was supposed to be the ME2 plot, except we never actually found out what the ME2 plot was supposed to be.  Can you invalidate something that doesn't exist?

Anyway, yes they are just flying right on in.  Stand alone experience and all that......

[Srau]

No no and no, ME1 clearly states that the citadel has 2 means :

1) Master relay to  lock secondary relays in order to cripple militaries and coms.
2) Siege of the Galactic government, easy to blietzkrieg, perfect to paralyze intel/armies/coms by disrupting line of command.

So basically with the citadel relay you are dead before you even know it and unable to react, with the alpha relay they are coming to do the job the hard way.

Modifié par Srau, 30 mars 2011 - 02:17 .

[grimgim]

Nozybidaj wrote...

contown wrote...

Did they just turn on their engines and fly here in a few years? If it's that easy for them to get here, why did Sovereign  even bother?

This makes no sense to me. Did I completely miss something, or is this just a big plot hole?

Pretty much.  They just kinda walked here I guess.  Yes it completely invalidates the ME1 plot, I don't think they care really.  I assume it also invalidates what was supposed to be the ME2 plot, except we never actually found out what the ME2 plot was supposed to be.  Can you invalidate something that doesn't exist?

Anyway, yes they are just flying right on in.  Stand alone experience and all that......

You are assuming that using the Citatel is the only way for the reapers to reach the galaxy. <_<
It was the "perfect plan", a super effective way to complete their goals with the surprise attack.

Modifié par grimgim, 30 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Whatever42]

Keltoris wrote...

@OP, one does not simply Relay into the Galaxy.

They flew. It's taking a while; FTL is a nice, vague speed measurement after all.

Spuudle wrote...

I think if the theories are correct, we will find a way, eventually, in thousands of years. Besides, if we dont suss it out as a race, we are ultimately doomed.

Heat Death of the Universe. or Big Crunch. Doomed anyway.

Nah, the big tear will kill us, when expanding space-time actually tears everything apart on a quantum level.

[Itkovian]

I wonder how often this post, or a derivative thereof, will be made before ME3 comes out (or after, really). It's been thoroughly explained on page 1, after all.

Itkovian