328 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

grimgim wrote...
You are assuming that using the Citatel is the only way for the reapers to reach the galaxy. <_<

No, but I assumed it would be a lot harder than "just fly there".  Apparently that isn't the case. 

It didn't even take them all that long, just 2-3 years.  For a race of immortal(?) sentient machines that's not exactly an inconvenient amount of time.  So what was the point of the "sneak attack" through the Citadel?  To create an inexplicably complicated plan of attack that can easily be foiled to alert your enemies to your existence?

If the flight in from dark space was only 2-3 years to reach the Alpha Relay Shep just blew up why not just do that to begin with?  Fly to the relay, use it to reach all the other relays, attack.  Element of surprise maintained, no elaborate ruses to be undone.

[Whatever42]

Nozybidaj wrote...

grimgim wrote...
You are assuming that using the Citatel is the only way for the reapers to reach the galaxy. <_<

No, but I assumed it would be a lot harder than "just fly there".  Apparently that isn't the case. 

It didn't even take them all that long, just 2-3 years.  For a race of immortal(?) sentient machines that's not exactly an inconvenient amount of time.  So what was the point of the "sneak attack" through the Citadel?  To create an inexplicably complicated plan of attack that can easily be foiled to alert your enemies to your existence?

If the flight in from dark space was only 2-3 years to reach the Alpha Relay Shep just blew up why not just do that to begin with?  Fly to the relay, use it to reach all the other relays, attack.  Element of surprise maintained, no elaborate ruses to be undone.

They have been probably coming for a lot longer than 2 or 3 years. They've likely been coming at least as long as they've known the Keepers were no longer responding. That could be as long as 1000 years, if Sovereign was really trying to use the Rachni.

The Reapers attacking the Citadel head-on would make the council close it up, forcing the Reaper to either just hang out or destroy it. Destroying it probably isn't a good option for the Reapers. That might mean the destruction of the relay network.

So that means they needed a sneak attack on the Citadel using the Conduit. So why not wait a few years and attack with a Reaper fleet instead of a Geth armada? Simple.

The problem there is that they didn't know when they would find the conduit. They found it when they found it. The alliance found the second beacon and started the chain of events before the Reapers arrived. And then Shepard also got the vision so was hot on their tails and put the Citadel on high altert. They had a Geth Armada, so why not use it? If they waited a few years for the Reapers to arrive, it could be too late. So an attack at that time makes perfect sense.

[Talogrungi]

The way I understood it was:

Porting to the Citadel wasn't "how the Reapers get here", it was "how the Reapers get here with zero warning and the ability to almost instantaneously wipe out all galactic leadership and gain sole control of the entire mass relay network to prevent organised resistance".

Looking at it like that, it makes sense to me.

[Iakus]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Pretty much.  They just kinda walked here I guess.  Yes it completely invalidates the ME1 plot, I don't think they care really.  I assume it also invalidates what was supposed to be the ME2 plot, except we never actually found out what the ME2 plot was supposed to be.  Can you invalidate something that doesn't exist?

Anyway, yes they are just flying right on in.  Stand alone experience and all that......

I don't think it invalidates ME 1.  THis plan is slow.  It's inefficient.  It gives, or should give at least, the galaxy time to prepare. Overall, it should give a machine race like the Reapers fits to have to resort to it.  But it does get the job done. 

What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

[Whatever42]

iakus wrote...

<snip>

What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

I confess, I'm more than a little confused as to what the Collectors were up to. My best guess is that they were just getting an early start on the festivities. Maybe it was a whole locutus of borg thing.

[morrie23]

iakus wrote...
What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

They were doing it as an amusing distraction for Shepard while we waiting for the real threat to arrive.

In all seriousness, I can buy the Reapers (or at least some of them) starting their journey towards the galaxy back during the Rachni Wars if that does represent the point when the Keeper Signal failed and Sovereign had to resort to other means that culminated in Saren and the Geth. But, I don't remember mention of when the Keeper signal failed in game, so this is really all just speculation and conjecture to help prevent the plot flying apart in my mind.

Still, the activities of the Collectors now seem a waste of time if the Reapers were really so close to the galaxy. If it was presented in game that the Collector activites were destablising tha galaxy from a political point of view then I'd be more accepting, but again this is not the presented in game from what I remember.

[Spectreshadow]

I think to win the Reapers are going to have to muscle their way to the Citadel and shut down the relay network. This is likely their only objective once they arrive in the galaxy.

[piemanz]

iakus wrote...


What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

The reapers knew they would get here eventually so the whole collecter thing could be just an experiment.Maybe the reapers needed to build a human reaper just to make sure that humans are actually compatible.This would make things easier for them when they get here as they could just start harvesting humans straight away rather than having to test for viability.

I't's possible that the human reaper is not the first reaper to be built, they could have tried all the other races and failed to find a viable one.I think this is likely as the Collectors were known before ME2 to only come through the omega4 relay to collect test subjects.

Modifié par piemanz, 30 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[Kekkis]

Spectreshadow wrote...

I think to win the Reapers are going to have to muscle their way to the Citadel and shut down the relay network. This is likely their only objective once they arrive in the galaxy.

Or Reapers are so mad to Shepard, that they all attack Earth just becouse Shepard is in there. How many times we have to ruin their plans, before they figure out, that taking Shepard alive is not worth it. Find someone less annoying to be new Collector General.

[Spectreshadow]

Kekkis wrote...

Spectreshadow wrote...

I think to win the Reapers are going to have to muscle their way to the Citadel and shut down the relay network. This is likely their only objective once they arrive in the galaxy.

Or Reapers are so mad to Shepard, that they all attack Earth just becouse Shepard is in there. How many times we have to ruin their plans, before they figure out, that taking Shepard alive is not worth it. Find someone less annoying to be new Collector General.

Hahaha yea this is the 3rd time we have ruined their plans?  I bet they will start experiencing human emotion to destroy Shepard once and for all.

[Itkovian]

Spuudle wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

I wonder how often this post, or a derivative thereof, will be made before ME3 comes out (or after, really). It's been thoroughly explained on page 1, after all.

Itkovian

Are you saying that because people have commented on page 1,thats it? Dont debate, dont discuss theories, its all been said on page 1 so read that and be done with it? If you want to explore an idea, with other people considering that part of the story, dont bother?

Not really, debate away, I was just commenting on how this precise point will come up again and again until beyond ME3's release, despite the fact it's been answered already.

Far be it for me to say there sjouldn't be discussion on a discussion board... but like many other issues that are actually settled, it will come up again and again.

Note that I was not criticizing the discussion in the thread, but rather simply making an observation on how a topic that has been resolved will still come up over and over (not that you can expect people to keep up with the forum enough for everyone to know the actual explanation).

Itkovian

[piemanz]

AwesomeName wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

The way I understood it was:

Porting to the Citadel wasn't "how the Reapers get here", it was "how the Reapers get here with zero warning and the ability to almost instantaneously wipe out all galactic leadership and gain sole control of the entire mass relay network to prevent organised resistance".

Looking at it like that, it makes sense to me.

The thing is though, the result is practically the same if they entire in via the edge of the galaxy in full force.  The only difference is that it takes them several hours to get to the Citadel - but ultimately the result is the same. 

So if the Reapers really did just fly in - why didn't Sovereign wait for them? 

Someone mentioned the difference between teleporting in quickly, vs. breaking through the front door.  Fair point.  Well, Sovereign DID bust through the front door, with a sh***y Geth fleet.  And in the process of hatching that plan, made SEVERAL sentient things in the galaxy aware of him, well before he launched that attack.

Would it not have been better to remain totally silent, and bust in through the front door with an armada of Reapers, giving the galaxy only several hours of warning, as opposed to busting through the front door with a geth armada, with a significant number or people knowing about you, years before you even execute your plan?

This is why they need to explain how to got to that relay.  They must have made some kind of self sacrifice to get there that made the citadel so much more attractive than simply flying in and saving a lot of hassle.

I've been saying this for ages now, well before this DLC came out, so they must be aware of that this would be a glaring plot hole (CURRENTLY, it still isn't - they have yet to explain how to get to that relay so fast - let's hope they bear all this in mind).

Gah!!! This really shouldn't need explaining.

The Reapers were stuck in darkspace during ME1.The whole point of sovereign attacking the citadel in ME1 was to open the citadel relay and bring the reaper fleet through from dark space.Usually a signal would be sent by sovreign (as the vangaurd) to the keepers on the citadel who in turn would open the citadel relay.However as vigil explains in ME1, the protheans reprogrammed the keepers to not respond to that signal, hence sovreign then has to go and open the relay himself with the help of saren.

Obviously with the citadel relay down and it being the only one that can transport them directly from darkspace to the citadel the reapers then had to make the journey from darkspace using FTL travel which takes a lot longer, and they lose the element of suprise.

[ScotGaymer]

Obviously some of you people havent bothered to read to codexes or the lore entries in the wiki...

Sovereign sent the signal to the citadel to activate the relay going to the relay in dark space where the reapers were hibernating. It failed due to the protheans reprogramming the citadel to not accept external signals and the keepers unexpected evolutionary path where they no longer accept commands from the reapers and only from the citadel itself.

So he realised he need to capture the citadel externally and as formidable as he was he would need help, so he found the Rachni and "soured" their "music" and provoked them to invade Citadel space. That plan also failed.

I reckon at around this time he sent a message out the galaxy to "Harbinger" who was probably his counterpart on the other side of the Citadel Relay (an awake Reaper).

He then searched for other ways to gain control of the citadel; and eventually Harbinger must have decided it wasnt worth waiting on Sovereign to open the citadel and woke his fellows to begin coming in the "long" way.
I reckon there must be more than one relay in dark space connecting to the citadel as well; as as they travelled in the long way they could "leap" in at any point along the journey if they ever got the all clear signal from sovereign.

Eventually Soveriegn got control of the Geth heretics and assaulted the citadel directly (presumable after one or two more failures) and we all know what happened then.
By this point the Reapers were within spotting distance of the edge of the galaxy; so Harbinger knew pretty quick that Sovereign had failed and enacted the "create a new reaper" plan to take the citadel, open it, and destroy galactic government and isolate the various races and fleets.

That plan also failed thanks to us.

Arrival I reckon is basically them being "right on" the edge of the galactic disk; and I reckon Arrival is several months after ME2 ends given Hackett says "this isnt a Cerberus vessel anymore is it?" and EDI references that Normandy 2 is a "nominally independent" vessel. Its fairly safe to assume it takes place well after the final mission.
So it would be "more" than 2 years after Sovereign attacked the citadel. (I reckon that ME1 takes place over a 6 month period, and ME2 over a similar period of time from beginning till end mission)

[piemanz]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

Obviously some of you people havent bothered to read to codexes or the lore entries in the wiki...

I know, it's really bugging me that most of the people claiming plot hole! seem to just fail hard at understanding the basic plot.

Modifié par piemanz, 30 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[Itkovian]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

iakus wrote...

<snip>

What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

I confess, I'm more than a little confused as to what the Collectors were up to. My best guess is that they were just getting an early start on the festivities. Maybe it was a whole locutus of borg thing.

Or perhaps it is another part of their plan. As they destroy all civilisation, the collectors are used to create a new Reaper, which we stopped.

Of course, what's to prevent them to do it anyway once they take over the galaxy, I don't know.

Or it is simply one of their contingencies, just like having the Alpha Relay (which, if you read the Codex, is indeed a special relay) as backup to using the Citadel Relay. In case their invasion fails or otherwise is delayed (which it has been), they create a Reaper to facilitate their arrival.

For example, one could say that, now that the Reapers are delayed even more, the Collectors would have had time to finish their Reapers and wreak some havok before the rest of the Reapers arrived and facilitated the extermination (appearing, as it is, in the middle of the galaxy).

If the collectors needed to be stopped anyway (for whatever reason), then it does not make ME2 meaningless if the Reapers show up on their own anyway.

Itkovian

[Spectreshadow]

Itkovian wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

iakus wrote...

<snip>

What it does not do is explain what the Collectors were doing trying to build a new Reaper now when in a Reaper fleet is just a few years out. 

I confess, I'm more than a little confused as to what the Collectors were up to. My best guess is that they were just getting an early start on the festivities. Maybe it was a whole locutus of borg thing.

Or perhaps it is another part of their plan. As they destroy all civilisation, the collectors are used to create a new Reaper, which we stopped.

Of course, what's to prevent them to do it anyway once they take over the galaxy, I don't know.

Or it is simply one of their contingencies, just like having the Alpha Relay (which, if you read the Codex, is indeed a special relay) as backup to using the Citadel Relay. In case their invasion fails or otherwise is delayed (which it has been), they create a Reaper to facilitate their arrival.

For example, one could say that, now that the Reapers are delayed even more, the Collectors would have had time to finish their Reapers and wreak some havok before the rest of the Reapers arrived and facilitated the extermination (appearing, as it is, in the middle of the galaxy).

If the collectors needed to be stopped anyway (for whatever reason), then it does not make ME2 meaningless if the Reapers show up on their own anyway.

Itkovian

I think this is what would have happened had Shepard been completely destroyed by the surprise attack.

[Whatever42]

Oh, I think creating a human Reaper is certainly very important to the Reapers, its simply what's the benefit in getting started before the Reapers arrive.

There could be a perfectly good rationale - or perhaps Harbinger is just out to hog glory - but I don't think it now could have anything to do with the Return of the Reapers (cue sinister music). Even assuming they could get enough humans to finish it, by the time it was done, we'd have hundreds of the buggers in our galaxy. What's one more?

So I think there has to be something more to it. Maybe not. Maybe it was just Harbinger getting an early start because he couldn't wait until Christmas Day to open his presents. I'll ponder it anyway. :-)

[piemanz]

AwesomeName wrote...

piemanz wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

The way I understood it was:

Porting to the Citadel wasn't "how the Reapers get here", it was "how the Reapers get here with zero warning and the ability to almost instantaneously wipe out all galactic leadership and gain sole control of the entire mass relay network to prevent organised resistance".

Looking at it like that, it makes sense to me.

The thing is though, the result is practically the same if they entire in via the edge of the galaxy in full force.  The only difference is that it takes them several hours to get to the Citadel - but ultimately the result is the same. 

So if the Reapers really did just fly in - why didn't Sovereign wait for them? 

Someone mentioned the difference between teleporting in quickly, vs. breaking through the front door.  Fair point.  Well, Sovereign DID bust through the front door, with a sh***y Geth fleet.  And in the process of hatching that plan, made SEVERAL sentient things in the galaxy aware of him, well before he launched that attack.

Would it not have been better to remain totally silent, and bust in through the front door with an armada of Reapers, giving the galaxy only several hours of warning, as opposed to busting through the front door with a geth armada, with a significant number or people knowing about you, years before you even execute your plan?

This is why they need to explain how to got to that relay.  They must have made some kind of self sacrifice to get there that made the citadel so much more attractive than simply flying in and saving a lot of hassle.

I've been saying this for ages now, well before this DLC came out, so they must be aware of that this would be a glaring plot hole (CURRENTLY, it still isn't - they have yet to explain how to get to that relay so fast - let's hope they bear all this in mind).

Gah!!! This really shouldn't need explaining.

The Reapers were stuck in darkspace during ME1.The whole point of sovereign attacking the citadel in ME1 was to open the citadel relay and bring the reaper fleet through from dark space.Usually a signal would be sent by sovreign (as the vangaurd) to the keepers on the citadel who in turn would open the citadel relay.However as vigil explains in ME1, the protheans reprogrammed the keepers to not respond to that signal, hence sovreign then has to go and open the relay himself with the help of saren.

Obviously with the citadel relay down and it being the only one that can transport them directly from darkspace to the citadel the reapers then had to make the journey from darkspace using FTL travel which takes a lot longer, and they lose the element of suprise.

Yes, I KNOW.  THAT'S MY POINT, for god's sake.  I've been saying this for ages now, ARGH.  That the citadel was REQUIRED for them to get in.  If it turns out they could just fly in, then it's a plot hole.  So they MUST have needed the citadel to get in - why else would Sovereign go through all that trouble.  HENCE I'm saying, that the way they got to this relay must have been a dangerous alternative for them to use, otherwise the takes the Citadel's essentiality away.  I honestly believe that with the destruction of Sovereign, THAT'S when the Reapers decided that they had no choice, they had to use their dangerous alternative, that they were never happy about using.  We've yet to know how they got to that relay, and they better explain what they did to get there.

For the love of god, please read my post properly...

No the citadel was not REQUIRED for them to get in, the citadel is just the easiest way for them to get in and it also has the advantage of bringing them right to the heart of power in the galaxy, meaning they can completely screw the galaxys info and transport system in 1 single assault on the citadel.

It is not REQUIRED for them to use the citadel relay it's just the most tacticly advantagous.

Again, this was all explained in ME1

Modifié par piemanz, 30 mars 2011 - 06:01 .