328 réponses à ce sujet

[morrie23]

Sounds like you're starting to see a problem a lot have had with ME2 for a while, Whatever. And now it has be reinforced with Arrival. I hope your ponderings are fruitful.

[Itkovian]

Spuudle wrote...
OK misunderstood. I still dont see what the 'actual' explanation is? Maybe you could enlighten?

Like I said, it is on page 1, there's even an image, with several posts quoting it.

But the short answer is, the Reapers got to the galaxy without the Citadel because they were 2 years away. Stopping them in ME1 was still crucial as it prevented them from taking over the Citadel instantly and thus shut down the entire relay network (as well as learn everything about the races of the galaxy and chop off its head). This is how they were so effective at wiping out all advanced civilisations every 50 000 years.

To elaborate, even though now they might have been able to attack the Citadel again, it would still not have been as effective.

Remember, the whole point of ME1 is that Saren is looking for the Conduit so that he can infiltrate the citadel with his Geth army and therefore prevent it closing, thus enabling Sovereign to dock and take control of it. Now, if they just reach the Alpha Relay and jump to the Citadel, they won't have that advantage and its defenders will be able to activate the Citadel's defenses and prevent the Reapers from messing up the Relay Network.

So either way, because of our victory in ME1, the Reapers now have a much more difficult task ahead.

So, while we THOUGHT ME1 was about stranding the Reapers in dark space, turns out that was not quite the case. Not being quite stupid, they do not go in dormancy centuries away from the Galaxy, but rather only 2 years away (still far enough to be impossible to find in the void, obviously), with a nice special relay within reach should they need to go for Plan B.

So it turns out the real achievement in ME1 is preventing the takeover of the Citadel and the immediate takeover of the network, and also gave us advance warning of the Apocalypse To Come. And though ME2 makes it look like nobody believes in the Reapers, I think Arrival makes it pretty clear that secretly the Council races are taking the threat seriously (I imagine they're keeping the lid on things to avoid mass hysteria or something).

Either way, how the Reapers got to the galaxy without the Citadel has been thouroughly explained.

Itkovian

[AcidRelic]

Marta Rio wrote...

It still doesn't really explain the human reaper and the events of ME2.  But maybe the baby reaper was just a side scheme hatched by Harbinger because he had a couple of years to wait and was bored?

Human Reaper, in my opinion, would have been done in the 1-2 years it might take for the Reapers to get here. They would have added another race to their collection and had another .... "ship" for lack of a better term.

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

four words: Prepare For Ludicrous Speed

Made me LMAO.

[Itkovian]

AwesomeName wrote...

Yes, I KNOW.  THAT'S MY POINT, for god's sake.  I've been saying this for ages now, ARGH.  That the citadel was REQUIRED for them to get in.  If it turns out they could just fly in, then it's a plot hole.  So they MUST have needed the citadel to get in - why else would Sovereign go through all that trouble.  HENCE I'm saying, that the way they got to this relay must have been a dangerous alternative for them to use, otherwise the takes the Citadel's essentiality away.  I honestly believe that with the destruction of Sovereign, THAT'S when the Reapers decided that they had no choice, they had to use their dangerous alternative, that they were never happy about using.  We've yet to know how they got to that relay, and they better explain what they did to get there.

For the love of god, please read my post properly...

Why MUST the Citadel have been required to get in? There are other advantages to using the Citadel above the complete element of surprise it provides.

Control of the Citadel allows them to take over the relay network AND learn everything about the new galactic civilisations (or a huge chunk of it)... that's why they made the Citadel the center point of the network, after all. Now that they cannot gain control of the Citadel (if they could just muscle their way in, why would Sovereign even bother with the Conduit, after all?), they have to use a far less effective approach and engage us without being able to completely destabilize and isolate all galactic civilisations.

And really, let's think about this a little: if all the Reapers required was a way to return to the galaxy, WHY would they even bother putting their Big Bad Relay in the one place everyone would find?

They would have just hidden their relay away in some hard-to-find place in the galaxy, and jumped in whenever they were ready.

So, no, it is clear that a PIVOTAL point in their plan was to take over the nerve center of the galactic civilisation. That's why they made the Citadel so attractive (all roads lead to the Citadel *grin*) and useful as a center of commerce and goverment, and that's why Sovereign worked so hard to have Saren use the conduit to disable the Citadel's defenses so he could move in and take control.

And now? Now the Reaper are reduced to taking over the galaxy the hard way.

Itkovian

[piemanz]

AwesomeName wrote...



Fine, aside from my totally incorrect use of the word "required" (I fully admit to that, sorry), please look at everything else I'm saying.  Clearly it was so damned important that Sovereign went through all that trouble.  It must have been the safest way in.  Like I said, if the Reapers could simply fly in, then Sovereign wouldn't have gone through the trouble - he would have waited for them.  So they couldn't have flown in.  LIKE I SAID, they must have used an alternative method of getting in and it MUST have been more dangerous than using the citadel.  I think you need to re-read the first post of mine you quoted.

Yea sorry i was mainly concetrating on the citadel part.

In ME1 vigil says that the maybe the reapers go into some sort of hibernation, it's possible that the fact they now have to travel the distance at FTL is going to use energy that they otherwise would not have used, meaning they could arrive in a somewhat weakened state.

Modifié par piemanz, 30 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Siansonea]

Citadel = shortcut. Instant transfer of many ships. Without the Citadel, they have to travel at regular FTL speed, which is MUCH slower and has zero suprise. The enemy can see you coming when you're in FTL unless you have a drive like the Normandy's (which the Reapers might actually have, come to think of it). The big thing is that it takes time to travel without mass relays, and it just shows how boneheaded the Reapers are that they only had ONE Citadel. Hello, every system needs a backup. Now they're trudging along at FTL speed, slowly trying to get to the mass relay network so they can invade the galaxy the way they had originally planned. Really, this isn't a plot hole. They were heading for the Alpha Relay in batarian space because it was the closest relay to their position in dark space. If they had arrived in the system before it was destroyed, they would have been on the relay network. Now they're going to head toward the next nearest relay. Once they're on the relay network, everything is pretty much lost. The only way to stop them is to either sabotage the entire system of mass relays, or "lock them out" somehow.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 30 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Itkovian]

Spuudle wrote...

Hmm, i dont disagree with any of that mate. Thats not what im unsure of though, hence why I didnt understand when you said resolved. Its more about that 'special relay' you mention. Id like to see more in ME3 about the journey from darkspace to the edge of the galaxy(codex would suffice). How did they actually manage it? Did they walk so to speak? Did they manipulate dark matter somehow, like Dr Kenson beleives they are capable of? Is there more to the reapers than we know at this point? Thats the sort of thing ive been trying to discuss and ponder, ya know? slightly crossed wires here I rekon.

Fair enough.

As for your questions.... I hazard they simply used an advanced form of the FTL drives we used, allowing them to travel greater distances witout having to discharge their drives (heck, maybe they don't need to discharge their drives at all, cheaters).

That said, keep in mind that Mass Effect is a manipulation of Dark Matter. The manipulation of Dark Matter is the handwavium of the setting, after all.

But I think they just FTLed in normally, and once they do reach a relay that does not get blown up, they will have to take over the galaxy the good old fashioned way instead of sectioning it off by using the Citadel.

As for learning more of the Reapers, I would be surprised if we don't learn of their origin in ME3.

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

Siansonea II wrote...

Citadel = shortcut. Instant transfer of many ships. Without the Citadel, they have to travel at regular FTL speed, which is MUCH slower and has zero suprise. The enemy can see you coming when you're in FTL unless you have a drive like the Normandy's (which the Reapers might actually have, come to think of it). The big thing is that it takes time to travel without mass relays, and it just shows how boneheaded the Reapers are that they only had ONE Citadel. Hello, every system needs a backup. Now they're trudging along at FTL speed, slowly trying to get to the mass relay network so they can invade the galaxy the way they had originally planned. Really, this isn't a plot hole. They were heading for the Alpha Relay in batarian space because it was the closest relay to their position in dark space. If they had arrived in the system before it was destroyed, they would have been on the relay network. Now they're going to head toward the next nearest relay. Once they're on the relay network, everything is pretty much lost. The only way to stop them is to either sabotage the entire system of mass relays, or "lock them out" somehow.

Note that the Alpha relay was an unusual one as well, in that if had a special mode that would allow it to even reach the Citadel.

I'm pretty sure that was not a coincidence, and the Reapers go dormant "near" that relay so they can use it as a backup.

Itkovian

[Siansonea]

AwesomeName wrote...

Itkovian wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

Yes, I KNOW.  THAT'S MY POINT, for god's sake.  I've been saying this for ages now, ARGH.  That the citadel was REQUIRED for them to get in.  If it turns out they could just fly in, then it's a plot hole.  So they MUST have needed the citadel to get in - why else would Sovereign go through all that trouble.  HENCE I'm saying, that the way they got to this relay must have been a dangerous alternative for them to use, otherwise the takes the Citadel's essentiality away.  I honestly believe that with the destruction of Sovereign, THAT'S when the Reapers decided that they had no choice, they had to use their dangerous alternative, that they were never happy about using.  We've yet to know how they got to that relay, and they better explain what they did to get there.

For the love of god, please read my post properly...

Why MUST the Citadel have been required to get in? There are other advantages to using the Citadel above the complete element of surprise it provides.

Control of the Citadel allows them to take over the relay network AND learn everything about the new galactic civilisations (or a huge chunk of it)... that's why they made the Citadel the center point of the network, after all. Now that they cannot gain control of the Citadel (if they could just muscle their way in, why would Sovereign even bother with the Conduit, after all?), they have to use a far less effective approach and engage us without being able to completely destabilize and isolate all galactic civilisations.

And really, let's think about this a little: if all the Reapers required was a way to return to the galaxy, WHY would they even bother putting their Big Bad Relay in the one place everyone would find?

They would have just hidden their relay away in some hard-to-find place in the galaxy, and jumped in whenever they were ready.

So, no, it is clear that a PIVOTAL point in their plan was to take over the nerve center of the galactic civilisation. That's why they made the Citadel so attractive (all roads lead to the Citadel *grin*) and useful as a center of commerce and goverment, and that's why Sovereign worked so hard to have Saren use the conduit to disable the Citadel's defenses so he could move in and take control.

And now? Now the Reaper are reduced to taking over the galaxy the hard way.

Itkovian

"Required" was the wrong word to use (I said so further up).  Did you read my post on the previous page?  PLEASE DO.  Why are you explaining to me that the Citadel is also there to shut down the network?  I know that - I said that - I'm saying that that can't have been the only reason why the Citadel was meant to be their INITIAL way in. If they go in via the edge of the galaxy, they can still get to the Citadel anyway.  The point is, why did they have to enter into the galaxy via the Citadel FIRST?  Why not any relay - no matter which relay they get to, once they're in the galaxy, that's it - it's, at most, only a few hours to get to the citadel.  However they get in, they'll get to the relay and shut down the network down anyway.

So what I've been saying is, the way they reached this Alpha relay must have been more than just, "they flew there".  Otherwise Sovereign would have waited for them.  Considering he's been waiting for 50000 years, I think he'd be fine with a few more years.  So the way they got to the the alpha relay must have been so horrendous - possibly even dangerous) for some hitherto unknown reason that explains why they wanted to enter via the Citadel so much.  Again, "required" was the bad word to use.  "Preferred" would be better.  MUCH preferred.

More than likely, the Reapers standard operating procedure is to simultaneously implement the Citadel pathway and the Alpha Relay pathway during an invasion. For the Citadel to work at all, the ships in dark space have to be stationed near a mass relay that ONLY connects to the Citadel, which is rather poor programming on the Reapers' part. From what I understand, you can't have mass relay travel without relays on both ends of the trip. That means when the relay didn't fire up on schedule, the dark space contingent implemented Plan B, to head for the Alpha Relay. Don't forget, the original invasion is already long overdue, there's no telling how long Sovereign was trying to get the Citadel back online. Of course, the fact that Sovereign was even trying at all indicates that some of the Reapers in dark space are still hanging out at the one-way relay, in case Sovereign is successful in opening the relay. So it's a contingent of Reapers who are going to the Alpha Relay to find out why the Citadel didn't open, and it could be as many as half of the overall population of Reapers, but I suspect it's a smaller number than that. Their mission is probably to take the Citadel by force and open the relay to the entire invasion force that's hanging out at station in dark space.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Marta Rio wrote...

It still doesn't really explain the human reaper and the events of ME2.  But maybe the baby reaper was just a side scheme hatched by Harbinger because he had a couple of years to wait and was bored?

The collector base was just a factory and the collectors it's workers, They were building a Reaper (probably to replace Sovereign) but that's it, The base had no really connection to the arrival of the Reapers - Mass Effect 2 is just an interlude between two games that's all.

In fact i would guess that when the story is complete you could cut the entirety of ME 2 from the story line and it wouldn't matter all that much - ME 1 ended with the Reapers arriving and ME3 will probably start with them finally coming here.

[Welsh Inferno]

So which system do you guys think the Reapers are heading for now that Aplha was destroyed? Straight for Earth or towards the Exodus cluster which is closer. Either way they're going right through batarian space. Unlucky Batarians!

Map: http://fc00.devianta..._by_DWebArt.png

(Viper Nebula would be right at the bottom)

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 30 mars 2011 - 06:39 .

[Whatever42]

AwesomeName wrote...

I really think the way they got to that relay had to have cost them something more than the element of surprise to explain why Sov went through the trouble.  They would barely have lost any of that if Sovereign kept silent and just waited for his friends to arrive.  By hatching such an elaborate scheme, Sovereign made his presense known to many sentients in the galaxy well before attacking the Citadel.  Years even.  If he just waited, in silence, for his buddies to show up, no one would have tried to destroy the alpha relay, and the galaxy would only have several hours to react - and it would've been the first time such a large number of sentients in the galaxy would have known about them.  Once they're in the network, it shouldn't take much longer than a day to get to the citadel (going by Retribution, when Grayson was travelling by shuttle, I got the impression that going through several relays was not much longer than a long plane journey).  Let's say they entered via the edge - they maybe give everyone a day's worth of warning?  How about the way Sov did it?  Way more than a day.  Which is better?

One HUGE problem in waiting for the Reapers to arrive before attacking the Citadel. If the Reapers would have attacked the Citadel head on, the Citadel would have closed up and its also nearly indestructible and several orders of magnitude bigger than a relay. The Reapers wouldn't want to destroy it because that would likely shut down the relay network.

But suddenly Sovereign and Saren uncover the second beacon. Then they discover they need the cipher and get that. Now they know where the conduit is and can launch an attack right inside the Citadel. Brilliant. They'll just wait a few years for the Reapers and...

Damn, the Council is on to them (as far as they know) and Shepard has had the same visions and also knows where the Conduit is. Damn! Better hurry or we'll lose the opportunity. Fortunately, we have this Geth armada to help out. Should all be good. Nothing could go wrong.

[Itkovian]

AwesomeName wrote...

"Required" was the wrong word to use (I said so further up).  Did you read my post on the previous page?  PLEASE DO.  Why are you explaining to me that the Citadel is also there to shut down the network?  I know that - I said that - I'm saying that that can't have been the only reason why the Citadel was meant to be their INITIAL way in. If they go in via the edge of the galaxy, they can still get to the Citadel anyway.  The point is, why did they have to enter into the galaxy via the Citadel FIRST?  Why not any relay - no matter which relay they get to, once they're in the galaxy, that's it - it's, at most, only a few hours to get to the citadel.  However they get in, they'll get to the relay and shut down the network down anyway.

So what I've been saying is, the way they reached this Alpha relay must have been more than just, "they flew there".  Otherwise Sovereign would have waited for them.  Considering he's been waiting for 50000 years, I think he'd be fine with a few more years.  So the way they got to the the alpha relay must have been so horrendous - possibly even dangerous) for some hitherto unknown reason that explains why they wanted to enter via the Citadel so much.  Again, "required" was the bad word to use.  "Preferred" would be better.  MUCH preferred.

I think I see your point... however there is a detail missing:

The Reapers CAN'T get to the Citadel and shut down the network anymore. Not after our victory in ME1.

The pivotal point of the Reaper plan is that they can send a signal to the Citadel, which has the keeper activate it and give complete control over the Reapers. The Reapers jump in, use the Citadel to shut down everything, and have fun.

On that level, no, using the Citadel to jump in is not necessary. They could just have flown to the Alpha Relay and then reached the Citadel, sent the signal and taken over. On that level, jumping in through the Citadel is just a shortcut, a convenient one that gives them an absolute element of surprised (which has a huge value, mind you).

However, the Protheans went and screwed that up. Now the Reapers can't just send a signal to the Citadel. In order to activate and take over the Citadel, Sovereign needed to interface with it directly. And in order to do that, he needed Saren to use the Conduit to infiltrate it with the Geth and stop the defenders from closing the Citadel.

And now? The Reapers can't use the Citadel anymore. The moment a Reaper fleet comes in, the defenders can just close its arms and it will be out of the Reaper's reach (even if they could blast it open, that won't leave it very functional *grin*). So THAT part, that MAJOR part of their plan is busted, including the element of surprise.

After all, if they could just jump in and take over the Citadel anyway, they would not have bothered with the Conduit.

So there is still no inconsistencies. Sovereign's goal in ME1 was to take over the citadel, and for that he needed the Conduit. He COULD have waited for the Reaper fleet to come, but if his goal was to take over the Citadel, what difference would that have made? He had the means to take over it with Saren and the Geth, and the fleet battle was mostly irrelevant, since it all hinged on having Saren open up the arms for Sovereign to interface with the Citadel.

Thank you.

Itkovian.

[Anacronian Stryx]

AwesomeName wrote...

I really think the way they got to that relay had to have cost them something more than the element of surprise to explain why Sov went through the trouble.  They would barely have lost any of that if Sovereign kept silent and just waited for his friends to arrive.  By hatching such an elaborate scheme, Sovereign made his presense known to many sentients in the galaxy well before attacking the Citadel.  Years even.  If he just waited, in silence, for his buddies to show up, no one would have tried to destroy the alpha relay, and the galaxy would only have several hours to react - and it would've been the first time such a large number of sentients in the galaxy would have known about them.  Once they're in the network, it shouldn't take much longer than a day to get to the citadel (going by Retribution, when Grayson was travelling by shuttle, I got the impression that going through several relays was not much longer than a long plane journey).  Let's say they entered via the edge - they maybe give everyone a day's worth of warning?  How about the way Sov did it?  Way more than a day.  Which is better?

Why wait, Sovereigns plan was perfect and would have worked if Shep didn't have the Game-player shield. In computer game stories that is about as much as you can ask for a antagonists plot.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

So which system do you guys think the Reapers are heading for now that Aplha was destroyed? Straight for Earth or towards the Exodus cluster which is closer. Either way they're going right through batarian space. Unlucky Batarians!

I think no matter what route they take the primary objective of the Reapers must be to conquer the Citadel first, The citadel still got the master control over the relays and shutting the system down so only the Reapers can use it must be their first priority.

[Itkovian]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

One HUGE problem in waiting for the Reapers to arrive before attacking the Citadel. If the Reapers would have attacked the Citadel head on, the Citadel would have closed up and its also nearly indestructible and several orders of magnitude bigger than a relay. The Reapers wouldn't want to destroy it because that would likely shut down the relay network.

But suddenly Sovereign and Saren uncover the second beacon. Then they discover they need the cipher and get that. Now they know where the conduit is and can launch an attack right inside the Citadel. Brilliant. They'll just wait a few years for the Reapers and...

Damn, the Council is on to them (as far as they know) and Shepard has had the same visions and also knows where the Conduit is. Damn! Better hurry or we'll lose the opportunity. Fortunately, we have this Geth armada to help out. Should all be good. Nothing could go wrong.

Exactly. Rather more cogent than my reply, but the gist is the same.

That said, like I said they don't even need to wait. All that was needed was to make sure someone keeps the Citadel defenses down long enough for a Reaper to get in. Just 1 Reaper is all you need... but you definitely make a good point: Shepard knowing about the beacons surely added a sense of urgency to Sovereign's plans.

Itkovian