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Can someone explain to me how the Reapers got to the galaxy without the citadel?


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#176
Almostfaceman

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Nozybidaj wrote...

grimgim wrote...
You are assuming that using the Citatel is the only way for the reapers to reach the galaxy. <_<


No, but I assumed it would be a lot harder than "just fly there".  Apparently that isn't the case. 

It didn't even take them all that long, just 2-3 years.  For a race of immortal(?) sentient machines that's not exactly an inconvenient amount of time.  So what was the point of the "sneak attack" through the Citadel?  To create an inexplicably complicated plan of attack that can easily be foiled to alert your enemies to your existence?

If the flight in from dark space was only 2-3 years to reach the Alpha Relay Shep just blew up why not just do that to begin with?  Fly to the relay, use it to reach all the other relays, attack.  Element of surprise maintained, no elaborate ruses to be undone.


Exactly what part of "the Reapers are coming, and I'm going to stop them." from Shepard at the end of ME1 do you not get?  He was expecting an imminent attack.  He's not counting on his grandchildren having to face the Reapers.  This has been a story expectation all along - that Shepard is going to have to face the Reaper invasion. Was this plot point not telegraphed clearly enough for you? Ok, then maybe me spelling it out will help.  Bioware has said that the Mass Effect series is about Shepard.  Not Shepard and his lineage.  Not Shepard and then Shepard cultists a thousands years from now.  Shepard.  Shepard + Reaper being introduced as Big Bad in Act 1 = Shepard fighting that Big Bad in Act 3.  Pretty simple, no?

So, Shepard foiled the Big Bad's Surprise Attack in Act 1.  Soooo what?  So the Big Bad PREFER THE SUPRISE ATTACK.  So what? The Big Bad is still coming.  Now that they can't surprise attack through the Citadel, they're attacking Another Way.

Not once, not ever, is it said that the Big Bad's can't reach out and touch us without the Citadel. Not once is it said that the Citadel is the Only Way the Big Bad can gobble us up for breakfast.  

What IS told to us is that the Big Bad have been using the Citadel Trap for a looooooooong time.  Ever heard the expression "if it ain't broke don't fix it."  The Big Bad with their Big Ego's have obviously come to that conclusion.  Citadel trap works - ain't broke don't fix it.

To them, it's about the same thing to us as, let's say, using a mouse trap.  Mouse trap = mouse comes to the trap and dies - no fuss.  The human can still corner the mouse after chasing it down and club it - but that's extra time and effort - why do that when I can use a mouse trap?

#177
NKKKK

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MAc Walters: Problem fanbase?

#178
oksbad

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I really don't get why people complain the reapers have multiple plans to return to the galaxy (some more optimal than others). Too many villains are defeated in extremely contrived ways due to not having a backup plan.

The Reaper's original plan was sound and clever. Had the Protheans not modified the keepers, everybody would be dead. However, just relying on that plan is extremely idiotic, as it can the thrawted by, say, blowing up the citadel.

#179
NKKKK

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I'm not mad at the Reapers, Im mad that the DLS had no VS and was too short.

#180
Guest_Spuudle_*

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NKKKK wrote...

MAc Walters: Problem fanbase?


lol:happy:

#181
Neto30

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Hmmm from wat i undestand the repears and sovereign and the repears were already delayed since before the start of ME1 so i assumed that maybe the reapers have already been on the move since the signal from sov never went out to them.

#182
Phaedon

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Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...

#183
oksbad

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Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And now? The Reapers can't use the Citadel anymore. The moment a Reaper fleet comes in, the defenders can just close its arms and it will be out of the Reaper's reach (even if they could blast it open, that won't leave it very functional *grin*). So THAT part, that MAJOR part of their plan is busted, including the element of surprise.


Yeah that worked perfectly in ME1..oh wait seems like a Reaper can move faster than the arms can actually close...Damnation.


No offense but did you actually play the game? Citadel control couldn't close the arms because they were busy getting killed by geth. Hence why they evacuated the council. It was Saren who closed the arms and he timed it so that sovriegn could get in but the citadel fleet would be locked out.

See 0:40 of this video



#184
CroGamer002

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Phaedon wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...


People don't like to be proven wrong.
That's why.

#185
Guest_Spuudle_*

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Phaedon wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...


that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..

#186
Almostfaceman

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Spuudle wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...


that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..


Damn, you figured that just by eye-ballin' that?  They should slap your ass in a police car so you can clock speeders.

#187
Almostfaceman

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Phaedon wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...


Yes, it probably is being ignored on purpose.  Though not by me. :)

#188
Whatever42

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Spuudle wrote...

that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..


It's faster-than-light travel. "With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise."

That would mean 10,000 LY would take about 834 days or about 2.28 years.

#189
Bluko

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Where are you people getting two years?

First off the Reapers only come out of hibernation at the end of ME2. Yes they were hibernating, because Harbinger was the only one "awake" and when the Collectors failed he essentially kicked all the other Reapers out of bed. Why? Because now their only option is to reach the galaxy by conventional FTL means. The Citadel is suppose to be a quick get-in and wipe everything out deal. The Reapers can still just travel towards the galaxy the old fashion way, but they prefer not to. Why? Because they lose the element of surprise if they do.

Anyways unless the Reapers are really really far out in the middle of Dark Space, it should at best only take them a few months to reach the nearest Mass Relay. Unless Reapers have vastly slower FTL drives then most ships, but I find that hard to believe, since if anything it should be the opposite.

#190
Guest_Spuudle_*

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Almostfaceman wrote...

Spuudle wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:

Is this being ignored on purpose.


There is a reason you can only fly to neighboring systems with the Normandy...


that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..


Damn, you figured that just by eye-ballin' that?  They should slap your ass in a police car so you can clock speeders.


lol i do bust speeders! All day!

#191
xSTONEYx187x

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Spuudle wrote...

that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..


It's faster-than-light travel. "With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise."

That would mean 10,000 LY would take about 834 days or about 2.28 years.


You and your ownage, once again. 

This man knows his stuff. +1

#192
Guest_Spuudle_*

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xSTONEYx187x wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Spuudle wrote...

that looks more like a 10,000 year journey to me at normal light speed..


It's faster-than-light travel. "With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise."

That would mean 10,000 LY would take about 834 days or about 2.28 years.


You and your ownage, once again. 

This man knows his stuff. +1


its faster. fair enough.

#193
Almostfaceman

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Bluko wrote...

Where are you people getting two years?

First off the Reapers only come out of hibernation at the end of ME2.  Yes they were hibernating, because Harbinger was the only one "awake" and when the Collectors failed he essentially kicked all the other Reapers out of bed.


There's actually nothing solid on this.  Some people assume this because of the ending cinematic where Shepard is staring down the Reapers - but I wouldn't read too much into that scene clearly designed to show, well, Shepard staring down a fleet of Reapers.  It is not at all illogical for the Reapers to be traveling since around the time Sovereign dies because, hey, Harbinger is keeping track of galactic events through the Collectors.

Why? Because now their only option is to reach the galaxy by conventional FTL means. The Citadel is suppose to be a quick get-in and wipe everything out deal. The Reapers can still just travel towards the galaxy the old fashion way, but they prefer not to. Why? Because they lose the element of surprise if they do.


Very true.

Anyways unless the Reapers are really really far out in the middle of Dark Space, it should at best only take them a few months to reach the nearest Mass Relay. Unless Reapers have vastly slower FTL drives then most ships, but I find that hard to believe, since if anything it should be the opposite.


We don't really know where the Reapers start-off point is out there in the emptiness between galaxies.  That's why some people are saying they are "2 years" out, based on Arrival.

#194
Guest_Arcian_*

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morrie23 wrote...

In all seriousness, I can buy the Reapers (or at least some of them) starting their journey towards the galaxy back during the Rachni Wars if that does represent the point when the Keeper Signal failed and Sovereign had to resort to other means that culminated in Saren and the Geth. But, I don't remember mention of when the Keeper signal failed in game, so this is really all just speculation and conjecture to help prevent the plot flying apart in my mind.

Still, the activities of the Collectors now seem a waste of time if the Reapers were really so close to the galaxy. If it was presented in game that the Collector activites were destablising tha galaxy from a political point of view then I'd be more accepting, but again this is not the presented in game from what I remember.

Dude, listen. It takes 22 years of CONSTANT (no disembarking, no refueling, no R&R) conventional FTL to cross from one side of the galaxy to the other. The galaxy is 100,000 light years across. It takes 2.3 years to cross 10,000 lightyears by conventional FTL. 10,000 light years is really really far.

It is no bloody stretch to imagine this is the distance that the Reapers are sitting at outside the galaxy. Even if it's marginal per cosmic standards, it's still 94,607,304,725,808 km. "Oh but at this distance explorers might find them," your probably think.


There is ZERO incentive to explore that part of the galaxy. It's dark and filled with cold rocks and drifting stars. As if that wasn't enough, the existing stellar objects that FTL ships must discharge their drive cores unto are too far apart since that's where everything starts to disperse. If i remember it correctly, ships require discharges every 50 hours or so (25 lightyears before needing to stop). By the time the ships are halfway to a new stellar object that far out, everyone inside are fried by the electricity build-up. To put this in perspective, the star closest to our own is 4.24 light years apart, and we're in the thickest part of the galaxy.

The Reapers can obviously circumvent this problem, be it through a technical solution beyond our scope of understanding or them simply being able to amass significantly larger build ups before needing to discharge.

Before i begin math-zerging, i must explain the details of FTL as I've come to understand it. A regular, fast FTL drive in the ME universe exceeds the speed of light by roughly 4300 times. I use the number 4380 times lightspeed myself, as I've read it somewhere.

That means a common FTL drive can cover a lightyear in 2 hours. 12 light years a day (or roughly 4 parsecs). And in case it wasn't obvious due to the multiplicative FTL speed, 4380 light years per year. This is with constant motion, without disembarking or docking. Keep that in mind.


Either way, the relatively close distance of 10,000 light years is sufficient to keep the reapers hidden. It also prevents them from wasting ludicrous amounts of energy, such as the amount it would be required for them to travel 2000 years worth of distance at FTL speeds. Now, we have already established that a ship with a decently fast drive can travel 4380 light years of constant motion a year. Multiply that by 2000, and you got 8,760,000 light years.

To put that into perspective, the rough distance between the Milky Way and Andromeda is 2 million light years. 2,000,000 light years. That means, according to your hypothesis of them going full speed straight away from the beginning of the rachni wars, that they are stationed at a distance outside the galaxy exceeding the distance to Andromeda by 4.3 times.

Does this sound wrong to you? In any way? No? Not even a little? Not even a bit? Not even a teensy bit? Hmm?

Leaving that behind, let's discuss the point of the collectors. Their entire point being, of course, to build a new Vanguard to replace Sovereign. No one said why. Everyone just assumed it meant the Reapers were sitting on their lazy tentacle-y asses out in dark space waiting for Godot.

Apply logic to this situation. The galaxy knows someone is out to get them. The stunt Sovereign pulled won't work twice, especially given that the galaxy will easily be able to recoup their losses in the time it takes to build a new Vanguard. Also, the fleet is now awake and wasting energy after expecting Sovereign's signal to go through and the Relay connection activating.

Here's the deal. The Vanguard was never supposed to do anything right away. It wasn't the plan B - it was the Plan B.2. The Alpha Relay was Plan B, and the Reapers were well aware that they would have to fight a conventional war once the Citadel plan failed. I'm sure it's not the first time.

Back to the Vanguard. Why build it? It's useless, right?

Believe it or not, but spies play a crucial part to every war. It would have been immensely useful in the ensuing conflict with the galactic civilizations. When the reaper fleet engages the civs, the resulting chaos allows the Vanguard to slip through the Omega Relay and use subversion tactics to either turn the Terminus Systems against Citadel space, or gather new proxies and agents to infiltrate the Citadel while the main bulk of the Citadel force is busy fighting the reapers. There are other unaccounted possibilites, of course. Draw the lines. Think outside the box. The possibilities are endless if you just use your brain to figure them out.

But of course, it's easier to complain than doing the math.

#195
Notho

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I'm not digging through eight pages to see if this has been posted yet, but here goes:

If you'll remember from ME1, the Citadel relay was need to 1: transport the whole reaper fleet into the heart of the galactic community so that they could 2: shut down all the mass relays in the galaxy so they could harvest the galaxy system by system with little to no resistance. Since the Protheans had already reprogrammed the keepers to not respond to the reaper signal from Sovereign, it had to attack the Citadel directly to activate it. We all know how that turned out.

So, with no other option, the reapers are having to take the long way to the galaxy, and the so called alpha relay is the first one they can reach to begin their attack on the galaxy. By destroying it, the reapers now need to travel to the next closest relay, buying the galaxy more time to prepare.

Sorry for the novel, but it needed to be said, in my opinion.

#196
Notho

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Or what Arcien said. :P

#197
Bad King

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Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. :pinched:


They may as well have done this earlier to save Sovereign from all the painstaking work of building alliances and sending Saren on an epic quest. Even without the element of surprise, and even against a strong and unified galaxy, the reapers could still easily wipe out every galactic civilisation.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 mars 2011 - 09:39 .


#198
morrie23

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Dude, its nice you put so much effort into your post and all, but my main issue is not with the distances/speed, because, ultimately it is unimportant. In my opinion, it is the undermining of the ME2 plot (and ME1, though much less so) that is the problem. If the Reapers can get to the galaxy so easily, they need not have bothered with the human Reaper, what is one more Reaper if the entire fleet can fly into the galaxy, access the relay network and go anywhere the wish in a matter of days? The Vanguard looses it's utility once the fleet is in the galaxy, it just becomes another Reaper. I don't find the reasons you give particularly compelling/convincing. Now, this is all in my opinion, you have a different one and that is fine.

Edit, basically this could be fixed by having the non-Citadel route take a great toll on the Reapers, thus making the human Reaper plan more viable/desirable. Future information might straighten all this out, and I would happily welcome it.

Modifié par morrie23, 30 mars 2011 - 09:55 .


#199
Zulu_DFA

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Bad King wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]


They may as well have done this earlier to save Sovereign from all the painstaking work of building alliances and sending Saren on an EPIC FAIL QUEST. Even without the element of surprise, and even against a strong and unified galaxy, the reapers could still easily wipe out every galactic civilisation.

Fixed.

And they still could strike at the Citadel directly, with the full element of surprise, if they wanted to, since all it took them to would be maybe a dozen more years to fly to the Serpent Nebula from anywhere they are now.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2011 - 09:45 .


#200
Bad King

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Magnus4096 wrote...

Image IPB

Here we go again. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]


They may as well have done this earlier to save Sovereign from all the painstaking work of building alliances and sending Saren on an EPIC FAIL QUEST. Even without the element of surprise, and even against a strong and unified galaxy, the reapers could still easily wipe out every galactic civilisation.

Fixed.


Fair enough