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Awakening is better than DA2.


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#101
Cutlass Jack

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Visanideth wrote...

Chiming in on the PST praise... I find it somewhat sickening. It's a great game, but people seem to fail to realize the geniality of the huge amount of material they had to draw from and... didn't live up to.

PST is great, but with THAT source material, making something good isn't hard. Not only the game failed to capture the magic of DiTerlizzi's artwork, they also didn't capture the complexity of the settings. They turned it into a freakshow, and it worked, but it was still somewhat disappointing.


Wow someone who actually gets it. Taking one of the best, most creative D&D campaign worlds and not even letting you create your own character in it felt nearly criminal to me at the time.

Its still a great game, of course. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't ultimately happy I forced myself through it. But will never top my list for computer roleplay experiences, because the story never really became my own. It was someone else's I was watching unfold.

I didn't feel that disconnect with Hawke. Quite the opposite. It surprised me how much I found myself caring about the events and connecting to them. But obviously, many feel differently on that.

But memorable companions in it. I'll give it props for that. Morte and Annah were two of my all time favorites...until I met Varric and Isabela.

#102
Visanideth

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

For my £40 or $60 I want to feel epic and grand and a hero of the story by my own actions which all previous Bioware titles have managed to do. This one failed to do so for me.


Doesn't this lead to a streamlining of the games, tho?

You insist here and in other places how you felt that choice and consequence mattered more in DA:O, and frankly, it's not true in strict terms.

DA:O had "fire and forget" choices. You made some cosmic, worldshaping choice and then never really got to see the consequences (until the ending). DA2 has a very complex and innovative choice and consequence system that actually changes dialogue and cutscenes depending on how you play the game. Choice and conseguence is actually part of the gameplay.

What you call "choice and conseguence" is actually "power", as you outline here. You want the gratification of being told you're powerful enough to decide the outcome of the events of the game, which is something that only really works when the author dumbs down the narrative enough to make sure the skeleton of the story can support all those "cosmic" choices.

There's nothing wrong in preferring this, in all honesty; if to you feeling empowered is important, that's absolutely fine. But you need to realize that what DA:O gave you was a huge CHOICE that lead to very tiny consequences. Sure, you could name the king of the dwarves... but what really changed in the game? Not even the troops you'd summon in the ending. You could kill the elves or the mages and get the templar or the werewolves and the grand impact of that was... a summoning spell.

You were shaping an amorphous world, that was so bland and hollow that it could support any of such cosmic choice at a time. What happened in Orzammar stayed in Orzammar, and nobody even knew that the Brecilian elves lived or died. All the stories and the choices you made were stuck in little boxes that weren't opened until the credits rolled. I understand the glorious feeling of empowerment that a game that keeps telling you you're a god among men gives, but there's literally nothing to do with that power.

In order to create a satisfying experience of that kind, you'd need to create 3-4 different stories, depending on how your choices interact with each other. Good luck with that; you'd get even more repetition than we're getting now. DA2 tried that, and succeeded in terms of roleplaying and character building, but forced you to relinquish some power in the breath of choices you had.


My personal perspective on this is that I hope for a middle ground solution. I much enjoyed DA2's story (massively more than DA:O's), but at the end of the game, you sort of feel cheated out of the power you've earned, and unless we get to see more of Hawke's story in the future, than it doesn't really make sense.
On the other hand, I tend to find the average WRPG story (DA:O being a particular offender) somewhat childish. The idea that you're given power of life or death over people, cities, kingdoms and civilizations because you're (insert title here) is downright offensive to me. These games even remove failure as an option; you can't really fail with dwarves or elves or mages, no matter how bad you screw up, you get your summoning spell. That's the most annoying element, and I much, much prefer a narrative that puts me in front of situations that I cannot fully conquer and challenges me with getting the most out of them, than DA:O's "you're the Warden and you're WINNING no matter what you do". That's the real loss of choice, because when every answer is equally good, none is the right one.

#103
Visanideth

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Galad22 wrote...

Visanideth wrote...

Chiming in on the PST praise... I find it somewhat sickening. It's a great game, but people seem to fail to realize the geniality of the huge amount of material they had to draw from and... didn't live up to.

PST is great, but with THAT source material, making something good isn't hard. Not only the game failed to capture the magic of DiTerlizzi's artwork, they also didn't capture the complexity of the settings. They turned it into a freakshow, and it worked, but it was still somewhat disappointing.


Ah, but many people me included, still think it is best rpg there is, after more than ten years, so yes it did live up to the source material. So why shouldn't we praise it.


To each his own, but the bolded part isn't true. PST took a small, small slice of the Planescape setting, removed the subtle symbolism and replaced it with a world of freaks. If Planescape was Pan's Labyrinth, PST is Hellboy. Something... less ambitious.

It didn't live up to the source material because despite being well written and thought provoking, it took something that was entirely about limitless and misterious and completely devoid of morality or rules and caged it into something very focused, very small and limited and entirely about the psychology of a character instead of the psychology of the universe.

Still good, but shamefully limited compared to the original.



In my opinion only 3 rpg has gotten anywhere near the quality of
PST, and those are Deus Ex, Fallout 2 and Vampire the Masquarade.


I'd even have an hard time calling the first 2 RPGs, go figure. And I really love Fallout 2. Vampire is a really good game, and it does a better service to its source material than PST did.

#104
Galad22

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Visanideth wrote...
To each his own, but the bolded part isn't true. PST took a small, small slice of the Planescape setting, removed the subtle symbolism and replaced it with a world of freaks. If Planescape was Pan's Labyrinth, PST is Hellboy. Something... less ambitious.


You keep throwing your opinion around like it is some sort of universal fact. You should stop that.

And yet you haven't even been trying to argue if any game did this better than PST.

#105
Marionetten

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Visanideth wrote...

Still good, but shamefully limited compared to the original.

This goes for every single game based on PnP ever conceived.

That said, I can't help but view it as somewhat of a redundant statement.

Modifié par Marionetten, 30 mars 2011 - 05:34 .


#106
Luckywallace

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Don't have anything of any depth to add but just to voice another opinion that I really loved Awakening as well. Great main plot, actually made the Darkspawn interesting (they weren't at all in Origins) and a really good cast of companions.

#107
Dragoonlordz

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

Wow someone who actually gets it. Taking one of the best, most creative D&D campaign worlds and not even letting you create your own character in it felt nearly criminal to me at the time.

Its still a great game, of course. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't ultimately happy I forced myself through it. But will never top my list for computer roleplay experiences, because the story never really became my own. It was someone else's I was watching unfold.


lol You just summed up how I felt about DA2. I guess it's a personal thing to each their own but essentially what you just said about how wasn't your own is how I felt about DA2. Of course there was more issues I had than that but that's probably one of top 3 in my list as to why didn't like it. No 2 on list was customisation. No 1 top of list was choice/consequence, cause/effect. While you may have felt enough was done for you to feel those, for me this wasn't the case and is the first time in a Bioware game I have felt that way.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 mars 2011 - 05:38 .


#108
AngelicMachinery

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Now your just trollolololing.

#109
Visanideth

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Galad22 wrote...

Visanideth wrote...
To each his own, but the bolded part isn't true. PST took a small, small slice of the Planescape setting, removed the subtle symbolism and replaced it with a world of freaks. If Planescape was Pan's Labyrinth, PST is Hellboy. Something... less ambitious.


You keep throwing your opinion around like it is some sort of universal fact. You should stop that.

And yet you haven't even been trying to argue if any game did this better than PST.


I can't really think of any other Planescape inspired game so... yeah, it's pretty challenging. I'm not entirely sure you're getting what I mean. Did you actually play Planescape in 2nd edition D&D? Own any of the books, know something of the lore etc?

#110
lobi

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Awakenings quest line is easy to break. last playthrough I did Four quests and Darkspawn were attacking Amaranthine.

#111
Cutlass Jack

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Marionetten wrote...

This goes for every single game based on PnP ever conceived.


Does it?

I thought Baldur's Gate exceeded the Forgotten Realms setting it was based on. Fallout certainly surpassed GURPS (so much so, Steve Jackson pulled out and they had to replace it with the SPECIAL system). Ignoring the Bugs, Vampire:Bloodlines did quite well by its source material. And while we're on Troika, Temple of Elemental Evil (also bug ridden) not only perfectly captured the module it was based off of, but exceeded it.

All my opinion of course. You could make the very fair counterpoint that all games are missing the GM, and thus are limited. Excepting Neverwinter...depending how you played that.

#112
Marionetten

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

Does it?

Of course it's not going to live up to the source material. It's just a small slice out of a majestic pie. This goes for Baldur's Gate, VtM: Bloodlines and Temple of Elemental Evil. They're all mere slices. To suggest anything else is madness.

VtM: Bloodlines didn't even have all of the clans. The Temple of Elemental Evil is the best attempt at emulating PnP combat to date but it was sorely lacking in all other aspects. There is no way you're going to make a single game and squeeze all that content inside. It's just not going to happen. It would take ages just to create all the assets. To single out Planescape: Torment is just silly.

Modifié par Marionetten, 30 mars 2011 - 05:54 .


#113
AngelicMachinery

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Marionetten wrote...


VtM: Bloodlines didn't even have all of the clans.


It had the cam six,  which are typically what a major Camarilla city is made up off. 

#114
Marionetten

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

It had the cam six,  which are typically what a major Camarilla city is made up off.

It was intentionally limited by the setting, yes. Your point?

#115
Persephone

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AngelicMachinery wrote...

Marionetten wrote...


VtM: Bloodlines didn't even have all of the clans.


It had the cam six,  which are typically what a major Camarilla city is made up off. 


Not the one I'm living in. :whistle: The VTMBL LARPers here laugh at that game. Yes, it's that bad.

I think it's a nice little diversion though.:devil:

#116
randName

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Yes, I would agree, but then its mostly due to how mediocre DA2 is; so you could list many a game that is better than DA2 without much ado, and it won't really help anyone.

#117
fchopin

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I have no idea which is best as i have never played Awakening's.

#118
Matchy Pointy

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I can't agree to this, I like the gameplay in Awakening (for the most part), but I know that for me, I just couldnt stand what it did with the lore.

#119
Guest_glpz462_*

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Awakenings is a better game, better gameplay & was properly labeled as an add-on; unlike DA2 which was labeled a sequel.

#120
Woodstock-TC

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da2 is way better than awakening, sorry. Story, scripting, character depth.. you must be kidding

#121
JaegerBane

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XX55XX wrote...
Though Awakening is a much shorter game than DA2, it had way less fetch quests. Every quest was directly related to the main storyline in some way or another. The environments were varied and interesting to explore. Even the Baroness was a far more sinister enemy than Meredith ever was.

Though I like the companions in DA2 a little more, Awakening didn't have a bad cast either. We had Oghren (the best Dragon Age companion by far), Sigrun, Velanna, Anders (before he became an angry man with a mission in DA2), and a few others whose names I have forgotten.

I wouldn't mind if BioWare released another expansion pack like this for DAO. I will gladly pay $40 for it. I don't care how short a game is - quality trumps quantity all the time.


Yeah, pretty much. Awakening definitely felt less epic and a lot smaller than Origins - as befitting an adventure that takes place in the aftermath of the whole Origins saga.

But as you say, the big difference is the simple fact that Awakening actually had a point. There was actually a reason for all of it. DA2 makes an assumption that we care so much about Kirkwall and Hawke that it doesn't bother giving us any kind of actual motivation and you just end up grinding.

To be homest, Bioware are the last people I'd expect to make this kind of mistake.

#122
Lord Gremlin

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In Awakening It's up to you if Vigil's Keep and Amaranthine are destroyed and you also decide the fate of Architect.
In Dragon Age 2 you decide nothing.

Technically, speaking of game engine, DA2 is better though.

#123
Reinveil

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A few of the many issues I have with DAII actually seem to be rooted in Awakening, such as the way character interaction is handled, so it's difficult for me to really say one is better than the other.

One way that Awakening absolutely kills the sequel, however, is in it's environments. Kal'Hirol alone destroys anything in DAII. Such fantastic artistic design during that sequence.

#124
JaegerBane

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Reinveil wrote...
One way that Awakening absolutely kills the sequel, however, is in it's environments. Kal'Hirol alone destroys anything in DAII. Such fantastic artistic design during that sequence.


Absolutely. Even without considering it as just an expansion, the sheer range of environments in Awakening was brilliant. DA2 was pretty drab by comparison.

#125
MorrigansLove

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I think Dragon Age 2 is better than awakening, but that isn't saying much. Dragon Age: origins was awe-inspiring.