54 réponses à ce sujet

[Snowbug]

The Angry One wrote...

David Gaider is a Joss Whedon fan, I believe..

Which explains all the dead mothers.

elxaime wrote...

They made sure to make the Dalish origins a
downer too though in DA2, by having the whole clan of the Dalish Warden
get slaughtered.  [smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/unsure.png[/smilie]

The Dalish origin was quite a downer on it's own for my female Dalish, she was engaged* to Tamlen.

*or whatever the Dalish term for this is.

[ThePasserby]

There'll be complaints even if there's a way to save the mother anyway. Remember Arl Eamon's son and Isolde? The game gives you a way to save them both, without sacrificing anything, and some complained about that. Shepard, by careful delegation of tasks and acquiring his companions' loyalty, can come out of the Suicide Mission with the only casualty being the crew's ego. Some complained about that too.

I know that if the game gives me a way to save the mum, I'll reload till I get that ending, and I believe, so would many of the players.

[Wolfva2]

[quote]Snowbug wrote...

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

David Gaider is a Joss Whedon fan, I believe..

[/quote]

Which explains all the dead mothers.


Not true....if he was then, upon seeing his mother's body, the Champion would have said, in a little kid's voice, " Mommy?" and just sat there in a horrified, traumitized way. 

Dang but that was one of the best episodes of Buffy I think.  What a completely unnatural way for someone to die in that series....natural causes <LOL>.

[Arppis]

sangy wrote...

Seriously, I've played through the game a couple of times, but every time I get to the part where Hawke's mother has fallen victim to the serial killer (or whatever he's called), I'm just a bit disturbed.  It just so random and wrong. 

Is there a way to prevent this?  I thought by alternating the events at the mansion in hightown (Mr.Dubious) I could save her.  Hawke's life is so depressing.

Life is random and wrong sometimes. Do you  think serial killers tell when they are going to kill someone? Sometimes you can't do anything about the events that happen in life. You just have to deal with it and move on.

[Snowbug]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Dang but that was one of the best episodes of Buffy I think.  What a completely unnatural way for someone to die in that series....natural causes <LOL>.

Absolutely.

[Rifneno]

Wolfva2 wrote...

What I find interesting about this quest is people's reaction to it. Like, complaining that they couldn't prevent it. Perhaps that's the point? Just like in real life, you can't control everything. Crime happens. Not just to the poor peons who you occasionally help out by slaughtering their enemies, but it happens to you to; not even the mighty Champion of Kirkwall is immune to the vagaries of fate. And really, what fun would a game be if you determined every outcome?

Of course Bioware used the death of your mother for shock value; most people would find their mother's murder shocking. Not to mention vivisection. I have yet to find, in any Bioware game, a more disturbing quest then in Baldur's Gate 2, with the little boy in the cemetary....

People aren't complaining that they can't control everything, they're complaining that they can't control anything.  No matter what you do, nearly everything ends up the same.  Some throwaway characters can live (and usually never be seen again) but your choices have no lasting effect to anything that matters in DA2.  You can change how your second sibling leaves, but not if.  You can't do anything about the first one.  No choice with the Qunari matters in the slightest, no choice with the mage/templar conflict matters in the slightest.  This is just another example.  Except it's particuarly irritating because it was intended to have a possible good ending.  But when they noticed that people actually cared enough to bother with the good ending, they decided to take it out.  Just trying to understand the logic behind that makes me start to bleed out of the ears.

The "but it's good to show that bad stuff happens to Hawke too" point is equally ridiculous.  Does anything bad NOT happen to Hawke?  He/she has to watch their sibling die, then gets sold into indentured servitude, then get at best torn apart from their other siblings, then gets dragged willing or not into both the Qunari and Mage/Templar conflicts.  About the only thing that turns out well for Hawke, the deep roads expedition, still involved betrayal with attempted murder, demons, and statues that bleed evil and insanity.  It's not that we don't want anything bad to happen to Hawke, it's that we don't want to be forced to see his/her mother murdered in the sickest possible way they could come up with.

[Sanguinerin]

ThePasserby wrote...

There'll be complaints even if there's a way to save the mother anyway. Remember Arl Eamon's son and Isolde? The game gives you a way to save them both, without sacrificing anything, and some complained about that. Shepard, by careful delegation of tasks and acquiring his companions' loyalty, can come out of the Suicide Mission with the only casualty being the crew's ego. Some complained about that too.

I'm fine with "if I save Isolde, Connor dies" or "if I save Connor, Isolde dies" options. I don't need an easy win-win situation where all is swell. I would have preferred something such as, "if you save Leandra, then Quentin escapes and does x,y,x" or some such.

The thing about this game that I just detest is that there really aren't options. You can choose how or when someone dies, perhaps, but barely if they can live at all. That bothers me. I'm not a fan of games, movies, etc. where everyone dies.

Rifneno wrote...

People aren't complaining that they can't control everything, they're complaining that they can't control anything. No matter what you do, nearly everything ends up the same.  Some throwaway characters can live (and usually never be seen again) but your choices have no lasting effect to anything that matters in DA2.  You can change how your second sibling leaves, but not if.  You can't do anything about the first one.  No choice with the Qunari matters in the slightest, no choice with the mage/templar conflict matters in the slightest.  This is just another example.  Except it's particuarly irritating because it was intended to have a possible good ending.  But when they noticed that people actually cared enough to bother with the good ending, they decided to take it out.  Just trying to understand the logic behind that makes me start to bleed out of the ears.

The "but it's good to show that bad stuff happens to Hawke too" point is equally ridiculous.  Does anything bad NOT happen to Hawke?  He/she has to watch their sibling die, then gets sold into indentured servitude, then get at best torn apart from their other siblings, then gets dragged willing or not into both the Qunari and Mage/Templar conflicts.  About the only thing that turns out well for Hawke, the deep roads expedition, still involved betrayal with attempted murder, demons, and statues that bleed evil and insanity.  It's not that we don't want anything bad to happen to Hawke, it's that we don't want to be forced to see his/her mother murdered in the sickest possible way they could come up with.

I underlined where I most agreed, but I pretty much agree with everything you wrote.

I mean, there was a Leandra DLC thread where it was stated by Gaider that the option to save her was there, but cut, because people felt it was the right decision. That's going to happen with just about every decision that someone doesn't like the outcome of*, so either don't give us options at all or give us options and let us take the ones that we want. I started a romance with each character on my only playthrough, to see which I liked most, and then reloaded and actually didn't make her romance anyone for the rest of the game.

I believe it was also stated that we need to see how magic can be terrible, so that's where Orsino's direct involvement comes from. That's a terrible reason, because we see how terrible magic can be throughout the entire game! The way I look at Leandra, she's just one more death... but that still doesn't mean all mages are bad. We just so happen to predominantly only be given that one image of magic.

*Edit: If someone is going to reload to save Leandra, then they're more likely to reload whenever something happens that they don't like. That was what I meant to say.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 30 mars 2011 - 09:03 .

[b0ksah]

Is Hawke's life depressing? ...well ye .. but if you really want depressing heroes ..then try reading anything with Robin Hobb ... specially the Farseer Trilogy ..darn it, talk about a fuked up life:crying:

Modifié par b0ksah, 30 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[Hammer_Of_God]

Nukenin wrote...

The upcoming "Kirkwall Happy City" DLC will allow for more pleasant resolutions to many of the game's more troubling quests.

For the low price of $34.99, you will be able to enjoy many happier consequences, like enjoying a playthrough in which all three Hawke siblings survive the prologue, Gamlen is a fine upstanding noble citizen who never needed to sell his father's estates, and Leandra is never the victim of some cheesy horror movie plot.

Why side with the mages or templars when you can unite them both in a cheery grand musical number sealed with a saucy kiss between Orsino and Meredith!?!
 

Brilliant!
*chuckle*

[EthanDirtch]

I just wanted this whole thing to be tidier. Neater, more smoothly integrated. By all rights, Leandra should be a 'major' character; she's the mother of the protagonist, she's the reason why they're in Kirkwall at all, why they *stayed* in Kirkwall. It would have gone down better had there been more attention paid to her involvement with Quentin earlier in the game. But, by the time she got involved it was sorta like she just got thrown into the quest to make what was up to that point a secondary or side mission feel more important.

It's like, "Okay, we'll just throw Leandra in with the sharks, we haven't done anything with her." But had they been peppering in more comments directly from her, or more events involving her throughout the game leading up to the ending of this quest, about this quest or about Quentin, it might have been more heart-wrenching and sad, than infuriating and annoying.

And, I really don't get the correllation with 'real life'. This isn't real life, it's a story, a video game. In a story, a well written story, things don't just happen spontaneously and randomly, like what happened with Leandra. For a BioWare game, this quest ending is just so out of the blue, out of thin air.

Modifié par EthanDirtch, 30 mars 2011 - 11:20 .

[Zhijn]

ThePasserby wrote...

There'll be complaints even if there's a way to save the mother anyway. Remember Arl Eamon's son and Isolde? The game gives you a way to save them both, without sacrificing anything, and some complained about that. Shepard, by careful delegation of tasks and acquiring his companions' loyalty, can come out of the Suicide Mission with the only casualty being the crew's ego. Some complained about that too.

I know that if the game gives me a way to save the mum, I'll reload till I get that ending, and I believe, so would many of the players.

Yes you are given a couple of choices with Eamon's son, but you dont know about these choice the first time your playing. Especially if you went to the mage tower first, and supported the templars. Then someone had to die!. ^_ ^

Either way, the hole thing about Hawke's mother was just bizarre.
Not in a creepy or sad way, i just felt nothing for the hawke character (male only, havnt tried female yet). Bizarre!.

For a game where your character is "suppose" to get more in touch with the personal side of things he/she sure aint got much luck on the family area. They all die in some horrific ways, lol.

Modifié par Zhijn, 31 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[DirtyGreasy]

Hawke just shakes it off anyway. If anything it should make hawke stronger, like a medieval Batman. Also, i found Leandra extremely annoying; all she did was complain that she wasn't living in a mansion.

[Walsh1980]

I like that the mother dies, it gives mage supporters (which I usually play) a good reason to 2nd guess their view of the mage/templar thing. My problem with it is there isn't enough emotion as a result of her (or your siblings) deaths. For example, you can't REALLY call out Orsino besides one small line (or with your sister but I haven't done that yet). Bioware's one of the only devs that really get at the heart strings, and I just think it's a missed opportunity for Hawke not to get super depressed/angry (in tune with the way I, the player, feel).

Modifié par Walsh1980, 31 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Jester12]

Uhm... I do believe it's to tie in Orsino for a plot twist that makes you hate siding up with the mages and helping your mothers killers associate? It makes Orsino look like a bad, bad man. Idk though. It was lame seeing her all stitched up moving without the mage to control her. Ugh

[Grymgris]

That Hawkes mother dies no matter what is really a letdown, especially since there are other quest that are related to the killer, it would have been a lot more fun if her life/death depended on the way you resolved those quest.

[Ygolnac]

i was shocked by mama hawke death, it felt random and pointless plotwise. It was just cruel and creepy. They could have used mama-hawke death in a way more significant way storywise.

[The Spirit of Dance]

i wish there was a way to keep her alive, there are too many things that feel like they are out of your hands in this game.

[caradoc2000]

"News of the hour: Messere Hawke has let yet another family member die. Companies no longer provide life insurance policies to the Hawke family. Epic fail!"

[Purple People Eater]

Yeah, the Hawkes mother thing felt like a cheap shot to me. There was enough drama involving Carver and Bethany, and I dont think it was at all necessary to go in that direction. She should have met some nice man, and moved away from Kirkwall with him. That would have been a better way to get her out of the picture.

[Sanguinerin]

@Jester12 and Walsh1980,

The problem here is that you assume that everyone will blame all mages for both Orsino and Quentin. One lunatic mage supported by the First Enchanter still doesn't represent all Circle mages. The templars want to annul every last mage in the Circle--that includes all of those who are innocent.

The mages who didn't resort to blood magic (as few of them as we actually see), the mages who knew nothing of Orsino and Quentin, they're all going to be culled because of the actions of others. How can one possibly consider the actions of a lunatic to be the condemning factor to so many innocents?

Interestingly enough, we only get the option to spare mages by siding with the templars, but that's something I learned later on the forums and tried out for myself on an old character save file.

[Inzhuna]

EthanDirtch wrote...

Just that the Warden's depressing life was played out better, while Hawke's mother getting killed didn't really matter much in the grand scheme of the DA2 storyline.

Hm, I wouldn't agree. I thought this had a great impact on the storyline, actually. For example, for one of my Hawkes this was a turning point where she decided all magic was evil.

[Greed1914]

ThePasserby wrote...

There'll be complaints even if there's a way to save the mother anyway. Remember Arl Eamon's son and Isolde? The game gives you a way to save them both, without sacrificing anything, and some complained about that. Shepard, by careful delegation of tasks and acquiring his companions' loyalty, can come out of the Suicide Mission with the only casualty being the crew's ego. Some complained about that too.

I know that if the game gives me a way to save the mum, I'll reload till I get that ending, and I believe, so would many of the players.

From what I've heard, that is what happened with the testers.  Most if not all went back and changed whatever was necessary to save her.  Personally, I support Bioware's choice in this case because a hero that has some failures is just more interesting.  When I chose my Shepard's backstory in Mass Effect I chose to have him be the only member of his squad to survive on Torfan because I wanted Shepard to have some failures and learn from them. 

[Jester12]

HallowedWarden wrote...

@Jester12 and Walsh1980,

The problem here is that you assume that everyone will blame all mages for both Orsino and Quentin. One lunatic mage supported by the First Enchanter still doesn't represent all Circle mages. The templars want to annul every last mage in the Circle--that includes all of those who are innocent.

The mages who didn't resort to blood magic (as few of them as we actually see), the mages who knew nothing of Orsino and Quentin, they're all going to be culled because of the actions of others. How can one possibly consider the actions of a lunatic to be the condemning factor to so many innocents?

Interestingly enough, we only get the option to spare mages by siding with the templars, but that's something I learned later on the forums and tried out for myself on an old character save file.

I never said anything about all the mages. Even though 98% you do are blood mages, just saying. But come on. You side up with a group of people to then discover their leader was your moms killer. Idk

[Darc_Requiem]

Nukenin wrote...

The upcoming "Kirkwall Happy City" DLC will allow for more pleasant resolutions to many of the game's more troubling quests.

For the low price of $34.99, you will be able to enjoy many happier consequences, like enjoying a playthrough in which all three Hawke siblings survive the prologue, Gamlen is a fine upstanding noble citizen who never needed to sell his father's estates, and Leandra is never the victim of some cheesy horror movie plot.

Why side with the mages or templars when you can unite them both in a cheery grand musical number sealed with a saucy kiss between Orsino and Meredith!?!
 

Best post ever!

[Swordfishtrombone]

I have to remind myself that I DO like this game, overall, thought it has many flaws. One of those flaws, I think, is that they drove the point that mages are dangerous well past where it was patently obvious. It seems that nearly EVERY apostate mage turns into an abomination at some point, or resorts to blood magic. By the end, where Orsino turned into the great big blob, I was like "COME ON! I GET it already! I GOT it half way through the game!".

It seems they were forging the storyline regarding mages for people who just are very, very, very dense, and need to have everything in great big letters (with crayons) to understand a point.

Also, having Orsino turn immediately hostile to you after resorting to whatever diabolical blood magic he resorted to was kinda lame. There SHOULD have been a time before it went pear shaped, where you could either go with it, having Orsino, in some powerful blood mage abomination form help you through to the cortyard, and then fail to control it, and turn into the blob, essentially giving you another thing to fight in the final battle against Meredith, or you could just turn on Orsino yourself when he resorted to blood magic, trying to convince him to stop, or outright attack him - in either case triggering the blobbification.