80 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

WhatisthisIdon'teven...

[SandTrout]

I have been playing video games for a good 15 years or so, I am also an avid reader in science fiction and fantasy.

KevShep wrote...
1) this has even less proof then what mine does.

What specifically? The Rachni thing is implied by the Queen's messenger on Illium. We know that Sovereign has been working behind the scenes with Saren since the events in Revelation. The Collectors did not start hitting human colonies until after the SR1 got blown up.

2)If TIM is working with the reapers do you really think that he would tell the other cells that he is working for them? NO he would tell them that its to better understand the geth...this is TIM after all...no cell knows what hes up to!

If he is working for the Reapers, why did he go though all the trouble to steal Shepard from the Collectors during the events of Redemption? Lazarus was direct orders from TIM. He could have done nothing and just let the collectors take Shepard.

3) yes they are all shady but...the STG are...NOT...part of the main plot...cerberus is! (again how long have you played video games). From the video at spike TV they interview Casey Hudson it states in the video that liara asks why cerberus is attacking them and shepard says that they are indoctrinated, but notice this...If Liara is asking the question then that means that this is the frist time that they have incountered cerberus attacting them other wise she would not be asking the question and it ALSO means that shepard does NOT know as well...he is giving a good guess by saying they are indoctrinated (because hey what alse could it be right?). The part that made me come to this thought is in that SAME video casey hudson says that you have to spend part of the game finding out why cerberus is in on the reapers, so it they cant be indoctrinated because they would have just spoiled that part in the demo (come on man!).

Actually, the Specters and STG are much more a part of the plot of ME1 than Cerberus is. Cerberus is central to ME2 because they are your financiers, and are a Human centric organization; This game isn't getting marketed to Salarians. The Casey Hudson quote is the strongest evidence that Cerberus is not indoctrinated, but it is not proof that they are not double-agents against the Reapers. It in no way even implies that the original Reaper species were the ancestors of ****** Sapiens.

5) this would be a lot easyer if it was not on online, so just pay attention to how games stories are told and look at the things that are not on the serface but are clearly there (just not at a first glance). Bottom line is you NEVER take a game with too many BIG unknowns at face value becuase you WILL get a big suprise when the game takes that right trun! There is too many connections with the reapers and cerberus to be nothing more then nothing...the clue that I see is they both revolve around humans with the moto the end s justify the means and there TRUE MOTIVES ARE IN THE DARK(because its a spoiler) and remember that its a game that means that they are connected. do the math. I did my own math and that is the best theory that Ive been seeing for months and with E3 it has more weight to it.

Post. A. Link.

Cerberus's motive in joining the Reapers is not a plot hole, yet. It is a marketing tease. We do not know the premise, but there are many to choose from, and your conclusion is a HUGE leap of logic to a conclusion that has not been implied anywhere.

[KevShep]

SandTrout wrote...

I have been playing video games for a good 15 years or so, I am also an avid reader in science fiction and fantasy.

KevShep wrote...
1) this has even less proof then what mine does.

What specifically? The Rachni thing is implied by the Queen's messenger on Illium. We know that Sovereign has been working behind the scenes with Saren since the events in Revelation. The Collectors did not start hitting human colonies until after the SR1 got blown up.

2)If TIM is working with the reapers do you really think that he would tell the other cells that he is working for them? NO he would tell them that its to better understand the geth...this is TIM after all...no cell knows what hes up to!

If he is working for the Reapers, why did he go though all the trouble to steal Shepard from the Collectors during the events of Redemption? Lazarus was direct orders from TIM. He could have done nothing and just let the collectors take Shepard.

3) yes they are all shady but...the STG are...NOT...part of the main plot...cerberus is! (again how long have you played video games). From the video at spike TV they interview Casey Hudson it states in the video that liara asks why cerberus is attacking them and shepard says that they are indoctrinated, but notice this...If Liara is asking the question then that means that this is the frist time that they have incountered cerberus attacting them other wise she would not be asking the question and it ALSO means that shepard does NOT know as well...he is giving a good guess by saying they are indoctrinated (because hey what alse could it be right?). The part that made me come to this thought is in that SAME video casey hudson says that you have to spend part of the game finding out why cerberus is in on the reapers, so it they cant be indoctrinated because they would have just spoiled that part in the demo (come on man!).

Actually, the Specters and STG are much more a part of the plot of ME1 than Cerberus is. Cerberus is central to ME2 because they are your financiers, and are a Human centric organization; This game isn't getting marketed to Salarians. The Casey Hudson quote is the strongest evidence that Cerberus is not indoctrinated, but it is not proof that they are not double-agents against the Reapers. It in no way even implies that the original Reaper species were the ancestors of ****** Sapiens.

5) this would be a lot easyer if it was not on online, so just pay attention to how games stories are told and look at the things that are not on the serface but are clearly there (just not at a first glance). Bottom line is you NEVER take a game with too many BIG unknowns at face value becuase you WILL get a big suprise when the game takes that right trun! There is too many connections with the reapers and cerberus to be nothing more then nothing...the clue that I see is they both revolve around humans with the moto the end s justify the means and there TRUE MOTIVES ARE IN THE DARK(because its a spoiler) and remember that its a game that means that they are connected. do the math. I did my own math and that is the best theory that Ive been seeing for months and with E3 it has more weight to it.

Post. A. Link.

Cerberus's motive in joining the Reapers is not a plot hole, yet. It is a marketing tease. We do not know the premise, but there are many to choose from, and your conclusion is a HUGE leap of logic to a conclusion that has not been implied anywhere.

As I said to talk about this online just is not going to happen for me, there is to much stuff to say post after post thats why I dont say a whole lot. If iam right or wrong it does not matter ME is one of the best RPG's ever (its actually the only real RPG) and I cant wait for it but in the next few months Skyrim comes out!!!!!!

Modifié par KevShep, 21 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[SandTrout]

KevShep wrote...

As I said to talk about this online just is not going to happen for me, there is to much stuff to say post after post thats why I dont say a whole lot. If iam right or wrong it does not matter ME is one of the best RPG's ever (its actually the only real RPG) and I cant wait for it but in the next few months Skyrim comes out!!!!!!

Sorry, I know I really shouldn't let facts get in the way of the discussion....

If you cannot express your opinions or support your claims in a valid format over the internet, you should probably avoid posting in forums. I'm the kind of person who enjoys debunking poorly formed theories, and I'm not alone.

[KevShep]

SandTrout wrote...

KevShep wrote...

As I said to talk about this online just is not going to happen for me, there is to much stuff to say post after post thats why I dont say a whole lot. If iam right or wrong it does not matter ME is one of the best RPG's ever (its actually the only real RPG) and I cant wait for it but in the next few months Skyrim comes out!!!!!!

Sorry, I know I really shouldn't let facts get in the way of the discussion....

If you cannot express your opinions or support your claims in a valid format over the internet, you should probably avoid posting in forums. I'm the kind of person who enjoys debunking poorly formed theories, and I'm not alone.

You dont have to be rude. I...DID support my claim to the facts of ME1 and ME2. We dont have all the info because ME3 is not out yet so there is not solid proof of any kind or for ANYONES theory for that matter! look at the facts I have stated above, most of it is comonsense. I bet your own theory has missing holes as well and if not then you know more then Bioware! Tell me how can any one have solid proof when the series is not over? I DID explane my self so...what...do...you..want? cause it sounds like your wanting hard facts...so make up your mind!

Like I said you dont have to be rude to me Iam just tired of reiterating myself. People said my theory of the cerberus working for the reapers was a bad theory...well they were wrong! the reason I said I dont want to say more is because Iam reiterating everything to you and that will take alot of time. BTW the questions in your last post have already been answered if you go back and READ all that I have posted it DOES answer your questions I just dont want to say it over and over post after post. This is not meant to prove once and for all its just me wanting to share my thoughts on the story and the fact that I do have and that is what I ve come up with.

If you want me to explane then ask me a question so we get on the same page. I dont know what part your confused about.

Modifié par KevShep, 21 juin 2011 - 12:23 .

[Harbringer 2.0]

Well, I don't got any theory about the Reapers. Because I'm to stuppid. But I have some speculations about why Cerberus would be the enemy's of ME3.
http://social.biowar...3/index/7679928

[whywhywhywhy]

KevShep wrote...

Ok let me make this easy for those of you that cant think. first off I dont have absolute proof (never said I did) because ME3 is not out yet (last pice of the puzzle), its based on real facts that are all ready there (ME1/ME2).

The ancient humans did NOT come from earth...They DIED OUT A LONG TIME AGO(this is the theory). They are now AI's with there organic part of themselfs dead! This is what they are trying to get back! We are them recreated through evolution. The AI in the reapers is dominate yes, but its still a human AI just like what happend in project overlord.
I know that all that stuff is in the air still but I know that my theory fits it to a T. The facts I have are...and I well say it again...again...are LONG STORY SHORT...
1. the connections with cerberus and the reapers who both seem to have contradicting plans on the serface but actually have the same exact goals and moto's not to mention that cerberus (a major player in ME) just happends to be a HUMAN group with reapers interested in ONLY HUMANS.

2. both are trying to make a perfect hybrid of HUMANS and synthetic Llfe forms.

3 Both the reapers and cerberus and very shady (in the dark about them) which alone is enough to get you to think about a connection. Bioware states that cerberus is not indoctrinated but IS working for the reapers and you have to find out why. they said that the reason is a close guarded secret and a major spoiler in ME3.

4. the whole story revolves around cerberus and the reapers.

5. All you need to do is focus on the parts that we know are an absolute FACT such as bioware stating that they are working for the reapers and NOT indoctrinated...then do the math....its not that hard people! focus on what you know and make a theory on what you have. Ive been saying that cerberus is working for the reapers for about 8 months...people said I have no real proof (true but...) I was right about cerberus stabing shepard in the back so I guess my proof...WAS...real proof after all (even incomplete as it was). Yes my theory has holes but thats ONLY because we are missing the last pice of the puzzle! Its like what Liara says "I cant proof it (YET) but I know Iam right!"

I've been thinking about your theory and I think you've struck upon some real questions but have a hard time voicing them to those who act smug in these forums.  The same thing happened to me, they don't get your trying to stimulate conversation.

Anyway as far as your theiry goes I started thinking of a few points:

3-4.
Saren had reaper tech inside himself.
Sheperd has reaper tech inside himself.
Ex-Cerebus agent Grayson had reaper tech injected
into him and found limited success in resisting indoctrination.
T.I.M. has been exposed to reaper tech.

It's unknown if it's a prerequisite but sovereign was able at a close range take over Saren's corpse.  Could the same thing happen to T.I.M. or Sheperd ?  Possibly.  Sheperd may not have enough of the tech in him for the reapers to "activate" him.  But I would think continued exposure to indoctrination would be more of a risk to him then others.

With T.I.M. simply coming under a indoctrination field(from a live reaper) could
turn him. After all if his actions as humaniity's vanguard are to be
believed he'd never go after sheperd while the reapers are actively
attacking earth or close to it. 

The trailers seem to hint that this is
going on but the sequence could be chronologically altered to mislead us. 
But in one form or another I see TIM turned to the (reaper side) they
will know where he is because of Grayson's efforts.
Cerebus has conducted some extensive questionable research, we saw
with the derelict ship Cerebus makes mistakes.  I see a huge propensity for them to screw up and cause some crisis like dasters but not willingly work for the Reapers.  If they unwittingly work
for the Reapers it'll be a top level corruption the agents won't know
of it.

A lot of varibles come into play when considering the indoctrination of T.I.M. and Sheperd because of the differences in these four individuals.   But it's not far fetched to say reapers could indoctrinate shepard it is a real possiblity.  When you factor in that even the pieces of Reaper tech are suppose to give off a indoctrination field it becomes a real worry that the Reaper tech in the normandy and in Sheperd is inexplicably dormant.  plothole imo

 

As far as the Reaper's origin your ideas reminded me of a Race in the Mass effect books.  The alien A.I. race in a effort to save themselves from extinction uploaded the conscious minds of all of their people into this massive mothership's computers.  Eventually this race of people went before the counsel and were hidden away and tech was exchanged between the two. 

Something similiar happened to the Reapers, that's believable but I don't think it was ancient humans.  I agree that the 50k cycle has to be for some purpose, a purpose altered from whatever it was originally.  Maybe at some point they were after organic bodies and desred to be free of the ships, they are definately referred to as both machine and organic beings so their may be some truth to your theory. 

It's possible they searched for a compatible organic host body and were violently repelled an action that triggered the eradication process. Maybe something unique was lost and the process is a form of revenge.  They return to eliminate threats in their infancy and search for whatever they're missing.  The retreat back to darkspace to hide is a indicator, someone really screwed over the Reapers.  Otherwise why leave ?  What are they afraid of ?

Even dormant they have indoctrination, they had others act as sentries in the past but rather then defend they leave.

Either way the A.I. Ship I mentioned before HAS to play a role in ME3 otherwise the story will be lame, it's the sole race exempt from the confines of reaper tech development cycle.  They have been able to develop their technology along the lines they so choose, this is a unforeseen development and a costly one.  The quarian creation of the geth is the other unforeseen development, both have to play a huge role in ME3 for it to be logically sound.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 22 juin 2011 - 11:40 .

[whywhywhywhy]

I forgot to add that operative Grayson's indoctrination showed a level of compatibility that hadn't been discussed in that level of detail. The only other example of that level of indoctrination was saren and he was dead as the time.  T.i.m. had more indirect contact with reaper tech but was changed profoundly from the experience.

When you consider the building of the human reaper(huge mistake on bioware's part)in the story's overall arc make very little sense, few options exist to explain it.   Maybe they were trying to build a female reaper ?  As of now the reproduction process is a bit of a mystery.

Per the ops theory maybe while in search of a organic body or even finding suitable hosts they were attacked.  This could have cause losted desire for a weaker vessel and after retaliation they scour the universe in search of what they need to produce more reapers.  Something they themselves are incapable of producing




 

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 22 juin 2011 - 10:37 .

[Harbringer 2.0]

Okey. You need to learn how to use a big letter in a name, like when writting Shepard. And to pause your sentences. I can't understand half the things you write.

[KevShep]

It is hard for me to vioce my thoughts on the matter because people that dont really think about the story (right or wrong) see a theory like this and to them it seems like its coming from way out in left field.

[whywhywhywhy]

Harbringer 2.0 wrote...

Okey. You need to learn how to use a big letter in a name, like when writting Shepard. And to pause your sentences. I can't understand half the things you write.

A analytical mind can comprehend many things, in essence that is a true intellectual. I find it very hilarious that if I don't follow a few conventions you or your many brethren are confused.  You guys are use to having everything spelled out for you it is no wonder to me you guys miss the ops point. 

Keep in mind what a forum(diferent people coming together) is suppose to be and post may be written by the tired, lazy or those incapable of formatting it how you like.  Your suppose to have a open mind and great comprehension instead of confusion brought on by smugness. 

[SandTrout]

The true intellectual is someone that is fully capable of utilizing higher brain functions. These functions include reason, logic, and language. My intent is to encourage the use of these higher order brain functions by not simply allowing people to get away with ignoring them.

Logic, reason, and language are not differences in opinion, they are the basis for any kind of meaningful discussion. Without them, you just have trolls and flame wars.

[KevShep]

SandTrout wrote...

The true intellectual is someone that is fully capable of utilizing higher brain functions. These functions include reason, logic, and language. My intent is to encourage the use of these higher order brain functions by not simply allowing people to get away with ignoring them.

Logic, reason, and language are not differences in opinion, they are the basis for any kind of meaningful discussion. Without them, you just have trolls and flame wars.

true...I agree but it can be hard to to voice an opinon in some formats over others sometimes. I explane to my friends this theory (they also like ME series) and they like it cause I can discribe it better that way. logic and reason is how I came to this theory of reaper/humans.

Modifié par KevShep, 22 juin 2011 - 11:51 .

[KevShep]

whywhywhywhy wrote...

 

As far as the Reaper's origin your ideas reminded me of a Race in the Mass effect books.  The alien A.I. race in a effort to save themselves from extinction uploaded the conscious minds of all of their people into this massive mothership's computers.  Eventually this race of people went before the counsel and were hidden away and tech was exchanged between the two. 

Something similiar happened to the Reapers, that's believable but I don't think it was ancient humans.  I agree that the 50k cycle has to be for some purpose, a purpose altered from whatever it was originally.  Maybe at some point they were after organic bodies and desred to be free of the ships, they are definately referred to as both machine and organic beings so their may be some truth to your theory. 

It's possible they searched for a compatible organic host body and were violently repelled an action that triggered the eradication process. Maybe something unique was lost and the process is a form of revenge.  They return to eliminate threats in their infancy and search for whatever they're missing.  The retreat back to darkspace to hide is a indicator, someone really screwed over the Reapers.  Otherwise why leave ?  What are they afraid of ?

Even dormant they have indoctrination, they had others act as sentries in the past but rather then defend they leave.

Either way the A.I. Ship I mentioned before HAS to play a role in ME3 otherwise the story will be lame, it's the sole race exempt from the confines of reaper tech development cycle.  They have been able to develop their technology along the lines they so choose, this is a unforeseen development and a costly one.  The quarian creation of the geth is the other unforeseen development, both have to play a huge role in ME3 for it to be logically sound.

I forgot about EDI...in my ship....being reaper tech. I wander if the alliance will get rid of her knowing that she is an AI? One of the things that makes me think that the reapers maybe human is (could be wrong) that cerberus are working for the reapers willingly (according to GI mag and E3 hinting that they may not be indoctrinated). If willing then they cant be pro human but as it turns out they are pro human so  why would a pro human group support a non human movment?...this is my educated guess based on that and other things you and I have said.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 juin 2011 - 12:09 .

[100k]

Here's as similar theory:

The Reapers were a civilization that came early to the galaxy. After they reigned for 50,000 years, their explosive growth and technological requirements sapped the galaxy dry of resources. Hitting as many birds as possible with as few stones as available, they transformed themselves into a single bio-synthetic being.

Their original goal was to simply survive a few thousand years in deep space, waiting for galactic tides to roll in new resources for them to survive off of. But when they awoke from their sleep, they found the galaxy thriving with new life forms. War over territory and systems took place, but the Reapers eventually regained control.

One of the lesser races they transformed into slaves, the keepers. The other races were obliterated, for they were still relatively new to the galaxy, compared to the Reapers who existed for all of their 50,000 year reign as a space faring species. At this point, the Reapers realized that they were doing everyone a favor by letting entire systems "get their chance" at life, then made way for new civilizations. This way, they could justify their actions as being for the greater good.

Thousands of years turned into millions of years. With the aid of the Keepers, the Reapers continued to make mass relays, until they had nearly every possible life bearing world mapped out. As they came and went, long exposure to technology and machinery made the organic aspects of the Reapers begin to die, and the machine mentality began to set in. 50,000 years in cryo would be a terribly long time for any sapient construct of organic origin. But for a machine? That time would pass in mere hours.

Their new and unlimited potential with robot thought processes, the Reapers started to see themselves as vast nations. Every time they would wipe out a civilization, they would decide whether or not it possessed the insight worthy of being a valuable addition to the Reaper ranks. Civilizations that were particularly diverse, advanced, or intelligent were kept. Most were wiped out. But over a period of several billion years, the Reapers still amassed fleets of incredible size and power.

Some races were already incredibly tough to root out though, due to fluctuations in species advancements over a 50,000 year period. Kledagon in particular was a brutal war ground, where the Reapers fought a species with high powered hyper beam weapons that soared across the cosmos. These wars were getting too costly.

They started building massive war time refueling stations in the one place most organic species would never consider even a viable option: gas giants. Planet sized constructs would remain hidden deep within these massive worlds, leeching them of virtually unlimited fuel, eezo, and natural gases. Occasionally these machines would ascend into the upper levels of these planets to gather surface resources. Whenever a organic would witness this, they would either be passed off as crazy, or watch uselessly as these constructs hastily retreated back into the crushing gravity of these worlds.

Jupiter has one of these stations.

A single Reaper would be left in-galaxy as a herald and scout for the others. The Reapers couldn't risk missing a single civilization that was even CLOSE to space travel capabilities. On top of that, a lure was built in space called The Citadel, where the Keepers could now be relocated to gather all information on space faring species. These species would eventually reach the Citadel, upload vast amounts of data unknowingly, and be wiped out. This helped the Reapers keep tabs on everyone.

When the Reapers attacked the Protheans, they were at the top of their game. But the Protheans, already fairly advanced and unknown by the end of the previous cycle war, had spread across the galaxy faster than anticipated. Though unprepared, the Protheans fought for thousands of years before eventually succumbing to the Reapers.

The Reapers, aware that they still hadn't monitored the galaxy well enough, and that a single patrolling Reaper wasn't stealthy enough to learn about all of the galaxies secrets, decided to enslave the Protheans and transform them like they did the Keepers. The old machines had proven their ability to be innovative and powerful when they built planet sized energy pumps in gravity crushing gas giants, or a vast information hub in the form of the Citadel. Now, they proved themselves once again by building a station in the galactic core.

Using the Collectors (plus a Reaper) as patrols for the galaxy during their long hibernation period paid off fairly soon. A Reaper or Collector vessel discovered the Rachni, a fairly advanced insect species with a hive mentality. The Reapers weren't ready for another cycle war, but the Rachni had to be dealt with. The Collectors discovered a way for the Reapers to control the Rachni. By instilling a sleeper agent Rachni queen, the Old machines watched as they made contact with the Salarians, and then initiated an attack. This created the Rachni Wars.

The Rachni were almost completely wiped out by the Krogan, thus getting rid of the need for the Reapers to invade early, or else have a fast breeding and spreading race like the Protheans to deal with, in addition to the (at the time) primitive space faring Salarians and Asari.

Eventually their in-galaxy Reaper was destroyed and the Citadel was retaken, partially blinding the Reapers. A young human named Shepard was responsible. So they sent their own agents to deal with Shepard. The Collectors succeeded in killing Shepard, but eventually the human was brought back to life. As the Reapers prepared to invade the galaxy, Shepard wiped out the Collectors. Now the Reapers were almost completely blind. They had a few booby traps in the form of Reaper artifacts in the galaxy, but nothing to give them a huge edge. They prepared to jump towards an ancient Relay, but Shepard thwarted them again by destroying it. Now the Reapers are forced to, more or less, jump blindly towards other relays. It'll be a tough fight.

So, Shepard essentially disrupted many of the Reaper's carefully laid out plans. They still have their refueling stations and sleeper agents that are hidden in plain sight, some artifacts, and of course, their own brute strength and husk forces. I'm also guessing that they will use some other secret weapons.

[KevShep]

100k...That was an intersting theory thanks for sharing it. You bring up a good point about the protheans, they knew more than they should have and even made a one way relay. The rachni could have also been used insted of the geth as an army to fight along side sovereign but that failed...plan b...geth. I would like to know what all the protheans really knew though.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 juin 2011 - 12:39 .

[whywhywhywhy]

SandTrout wrote...

The true intellectual is someone that is fully capable of utilizing higher brain functions. These functions include reason, logic, and language. My intent is to encourage the use of these higher order brain functions by not simply allowing people to get away with ignoring them.

Logic, reason, and language are not differences in opinion, they are the basis for any kind of meaningful discussion. Without them, you just have trolls and flame wars.

What you have described is not intelligence but arrogance for you assume that if one doesn't use your logic, reason or language they lack the ability to have a meaningful discussion.  What of the essentric genuises who's most simple explaination is beyong the grasp of your meager intellect.  Will his arguments be wrote off as meaningless trolls or fodder for flame wars ?  It's arrogance to assume your smarter then him.

What's logical ?  To comprehend a post to gain a understanding of what a op or fellow poster is trying to convene.  What's illogical is the all to prevailant dismissive attitude of a point or persceptive if one disagrees with, misunderstands or lacks the ability to comprehend.  If your version of intellect is true then that person could fill in the missing gaps in reason, logic and language in his/her mind and respond acordingly.  Yet these intelluctals become confused at the simplest break in convention.  What of the c++ programmer who doesn't follow convention yet his syntax and semantics are within the bounds of the language, is he not a programmer ?  His code would certainly be harder to read for some and impossible for others but does that make him any less intelligent ?

To explain the differences in the level of aptitudes, your talking about english 101 when no correct form of english exist, just standardized versions.  I'm talking about the ability dechipering languages of advanced civilizations who've shown greater understanding in many things our present day scientific community have only begun to understand by building on the discoveries of those civilizations.

If your aptitude is the latter, then you should understand the argument or point and respond accordingly,  to be dismissive, snide or smug only highlights the lack of intellect.

edit:

wonderful post 100k, this is why I supported the ops post to see posts such as your which is really spot on.  Your observation of the jupiter fueling station hints that if evolution is to be believed KevShep's ancient human theory may have more credibility.  Could have been a different species all together orginating on earth before the proteans traveled the stars.  All in ll wonderful post.

Modifié par whywhywhywhy, 23 juin 2011 - 02:29 .

[SandTrout]

What you have described is not intelligence but arrogance for you assume that if one doesn't use your logic, reason or language they lack the ability to have a meaningful discussion. What of the essentric genuises who's most simple explaination is beyong the grasp of your meager intellect. Will his arguments be wrote off as meaningless trolls or fodder for flame wars ? It's arrogance to assume your smarter then him.

I wasn't stating the definition of intelligence, but the definition of an intellectual, and the means for having a discussion. If one cannot communicate their ideas properly, than no meaningful discussion can exist.

What's logical ? To comprehend a post to gain a understanding of what a op or fellow poster is trying to convene. What's illogical is the all to prevailant dismissive attitude of a point or persceptive if one disagrees with, misunderstands or lacks the ability to comprehend. If your version of intellect is true then that person could fill in the missing gaps in reason, logic and language in his/her mind and respond acordingly. Yet these intelluctals become confused at the simplest break in convention. What of the c++ programmer who doesn't follow convention yet his syntax and semantics are within the bounds of the language, is he not a programmer ? His code would certainly be harder to read for some and impossible for others but does that make him any less intelligent ?

Aptitude was never mentioned, and I never called anyone stupid, per-se, only that they were not presenting their argument in a manner that I could take seriously. Is it logical to accept an idea presented to me that from my perspective, clashes with existing evidence and assumes evidence that does not exist, and which is based off of logic that I cannot follow? Also, he made several logical flaws such as "I was correct in the past, therefor I am correct now". One does not cause the other.

To explain the differences in the level of aptitudes, your talking about english 101 when no correct form of english exist

Incorrect. Several correct versions of English exists, and all follow a basic structure. The primary differences are with between certain dialects' use of certain words as opposed to others, or pronunciations. One is not less correct than others, they simply vary in the details. In order for discussion of an idea to progress, proper language should be used in order to prevent misunderstanding between those discussing the topic.

I'm talking about the ability dechipering languages of advanced civilizations who've shown greater understanding in many things our present day scientific community have only begun to understand by building on the discoveries of those civilizations.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

If your aptitude is the latter, then you should understand the argument or point and respond accordingly, to be dismissive, snide or smug only highlights the lack of intellect.

Lack of proper use of reason, logic, and language implies lack of intellect, though they are not necessarily always linked. However, why should I assume that someone who cannot properly express themselves in a written format is smarter than I am because I cannot understand their logic? Considering the nature of the internet, there is no guarantee that there is any logic, let alone good logic, involved. Lack of aptitude is the far more likely possibility, and therefor that is the base assumption for any idea which I find to be using faulty logic.

BTW, that wasn't meant as an insult to anyone; I was simply explaining my thought process, and why I find whywhywhywhy's reasoning as faulty. I did come off as a bit snotty before.

100k's post was constructed in a much more comprehensible manner. Even though some of his logical leaps seem to be a bit of a stretch to me, nothing contradicted existing evidence.

The only major part of his hypothetical timeline that I take issue with is the following:

Using the Collectors (plus a Reaper) as patrols for the galaxy during their long hibernation period paid off fairly soon. A Reaper or Collector vessel discovered the Rachni, a fairly advanced insect species with a hive mentality. The Reapers weren't ready for another cycle war, but the Rachni had to be dealt with. The Collectors discovered a way for the Reapers to control the Rachni. By instilling a sleeper agent Rachni queen, the Old machines watched as they made contact with the Salarians, and then initiated an attack. This created the Rachni Wars.

It does not necessarily follow that there would be any preparations that the Reapers could be conducting in Dark Space. By its very nature, Dark Space is devoid of resources that the Reapers might use to repair or replenish. The far more reasonable path for the Reapers to take would be to replenish their resources while they are still in the galaxy after each purge. It is difficult to believe that there was something that the Reapers couldn't finish in preparation for the next cycle in 49k years, as opposed to 50k.

Based on what we do know regarding the Prothean sabotage of the Citadel, it seems more likely to me that the Rachni were the first species to attempt to take the Citadel by force for Sovereign, just like it did with the Geth. The attempt was thwarted by the unexpected entry into the war by the uplifted Krogan, which had not left their planet yet, therefor not being considered relevant by Sovereign when it instigated the Rachni-Wars. Remember that until the Krogan joined the fight, the Citadel species were in full retreat from the Rachni.

[whywhywhywhy]

SandTrout wrote...

I wasn't stating the definition of intelligence, but the definition of an intellectual, and the means for having a discussion. If one cannot communicate their ideas properly, than no meaningful discussion can exist.

Yet me, KevShep and 100k managed to do just that.  Also in case you misunderstand I disagree with your definition of a intelluctual.

SandTrout wrote...

What's logical ? To comprehend a post to gain a understanding of what a op or fellow poster is trying to convene. What's illogical is the all to prevailant dismissive attitude of a point or persceptive if one disagrees with, misunderstands or lacks the ability to comprehend. If your version of intellect is true then that person could fill in the missing gaps in reason, logic and language in his/her mind and respond acordingly. Yet these intelluctals become confused at the simplest break in convention. What of the c++ programmer who doesn't follow convention yet his syntax and semantics are within the bounds of the language, is he not a programmer ? His code would certainly be harder to read for some and impossible for others but does that make him any less intelligent ?

Aptitude was never mentioned, and I never called anyone stupid, per-se, only that they were not presenting their argument in a manner that I could take seriously. Is it logical to accept an idea presented to me that from my perspective, clashes with existing evidence and assumes evidence that does not exist, and which is based off of logic that I cannot follow? Also, he made several logical flaws such as "I was correct in the past, therefor I am correct now". One does not cause the other.

No one is asking you to change your perspective just to be more open to others and understand them before shot them down.  I assume all here would prefer someone to explain a disagreement rather then only say they dis agree or your wrong.  That said your response fails to address what you quoted above it.

SandTrout wrote...

To explain the differences in the level of aptitudes, your talking about english 101 when no correct form of english exist

Incorrect. Several correct versions of English exists, and all follow a basic structure. The primary differences are with between certain dialects' use of certain words as opposed to others, or pronunciations. One is not less correct than others, they simply vary in the details. In order for discussion of an idea to progress, proper language should be used in order to prevent misunderstanding between those discussing the topic.

No single correct form of english exists you'd be foolish to try and continue and argue this point, I don't like how you quoted me out of context either.  Quoting myself "your talking about english 101 when no correct form of english exist,
just standardized versions." argue this point if you can.  Just include who decides what is right and wrong with language, keeping in mind accents, dialects and slang are very valid to those who have/use them.

SandTrout wrote... 

I'm talking about the ability dechipering languages of advanced civilizations who've shown greater understanding in many things our present day scientific community have only begun to understand by building on the discoveries of those civilizations.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Only to those who lack the comprehension, the point is if I dropped your intellectual in the middle of nowhere and he met a tribe of non english speakers, would he survive or thrive ?  Someone no matter how intelligent, willing to find a common ground would thrive your intellectual would probably die.

SandTrout wrote...

If your aptitude is the latter, then you should understand the argument or point and respond accordingly, to be dismissive, snide or smug only highlights the lack of intellect.

Lack of proper use of reason, logic, and language implies lack of intellect, though they are not necessarily always linked. However, why should I assume that someone who cannot properly express themselves in a written format is smarter than I am because I cannot understand their logic? Considering the nature of the internet, there is no guarantee that there is any logic, let alone good logic, involved. Lack of aptitude is the far more likely possibility, and therefor that is the base assumption for any idea which I find to be using faulty logic.

I'm not asking you to assume, I'm asking why you don't understand.

SandTrout wrote...
BTW, that wasn't meant as an insult to anyone; I was simply explaining my thought process, and why I find whywhywhywhy's reasoning as faulty. I did come off as a bit snotty before.

I don't have any hard feelings towards you.

[SandTrout]

No one is asking you to change your perspective just to be more open to others and understand them before shot them down. I assume all here would prefer someone to explain a disagreement rather then only say they dis agree or your wrong. That said your response fails to address what you quoted above it.

By pointing out flaws in their reasoning, I am inherently inviting them to explain themselves better if there was something I missed or have not made the appropriate logical connection on. In this specific case, I did not accept their logical connections as being valid, and they failed to present evidence that would compel me to change my assessment.

No single correct form of english exists you'd be foolish to try and continue and argue this point, I don't like how you quoted me out of context either. Quoting myself "your talking about english 101 when no correct form of english exist, just standardized versions." argue this point if you can. Just include who decides what is right and wrong with language, keeping in mind accents, dialects and slang are very valid to those who have/use them.

I do not accept your assertion that there is no correct English, and therefor I cannot criticize on the basis of poorly formed sentences. With relevance to my issues with the OP, slang and opposing dialects did not come into the picture, and besides that point, I am familiar with a wide variety of English dialects. The problem was not one of dialect, but of grammatical form, which nearly all dialects of English share, and of those that differ somewhat, none of those were being used.

Only to those who lack the comprehension, the point is if I dropped your intellectual in the middle of nowhere and he met a tribe of non english speakers, would he survive or thrive ? Someone no matter how intelligent, willing to find a common ground would thrive your intellectual would probably die.

Incorrect interpretation of my definition. My definition of intellectual would seek to learn the local language in order to begin discourse. However, if members of the island tribe simply spouted out words at random without holding to any consistent rules of grammar, any communication will be severely hampered, if not becoming outright impossible. In the case of this forum, there has already been a language chosen for communication: English. Adequate command of the language, regardless of specific dialect, is a reasonable expectation.

I'm not asking you to assume, I'm asking why you don't understand.

And I am asking people to be comprehensible, or else I am forced to fall back on assumptions where data is not available.

Modifié par SandTrout, 23 juin 2011 - 06:30 .

[gridlockSG400]

I had a thread on this in the General Discussion board. My original theory was this:


So why do you guys think the Reapers do what they do? Where do you think they come from?

Basically just post your theories here.

For starters, they refer to organic life as an "accident" and a "genetic mutation" and call themselves the harbingers of our salvation(if I remember correctly. I remember Harbinger saying something about Salvation). However, I am going to assume by "our" salvation, they mean life in general's, or even the universes salvation. And we know they let life grow to its apex and destroy it over and over again.

Why would they do this? Because they want to create the perfect lifeforms. However, in order to do this they must study life. Then, when they feel it is appropriate, they will combine the best traits and create what they deem as "perfect" life; life worthy of them. This could possibly be to replicate their original organic creators. (They must have had organic creators, musn't they?)

However, they assure Shepard that they have no beginning and have no end. They are infinite; assuming they aren't lying because they're dicks like that, maybe the life that created them told the Reapers not to remember them. On the brink of their destruction, the organic life told their creations to go forth and create life of their own. Make it perfect, and don't let it make the same mistakes they did.

Though, thats not really important in retrospect. However, the big moral of the story happy ending would be that life is an accident; there can be no perfect life. The point of life is that you don't understand it. However, the Reapers can't grasp this and that would cause them to continue their search for the perfect lifeforms for all eternity, giving Shepard justification for destroying them.

So, what are yours?


But it changed somewhat throughout the thread. I tried to compile what the few people who responded said and reply to them. Here's the link.
http://social.biowar...3/index/7674318

[KevShep]

sandtrout... I never said that i was right before so that means I am right now. thats not what I was saying. What I was saying is that people gave me crap before for saying the cerberus is going to betray shepard, and so far thats the case. they said I was not uesing common sense and that I was not thinking clearly...how ever I was thinking clearly. You were trying to tell me the same thing and I was just letting you know that if i was right before that I can be right again even if the theory is way out there so, dont assume that because you dont understand where I am coming from that means Iam not useing facts or have no logic. I know more than anyone that the logic of  "I was right before there for Iam right now"  is stupid.

You hate stupid people I know. Your own hate of stupid people can sometimes make you do dumb things by assuming that someone is stupid just because they said something that you miss understood and then basically telling them that they are stupid "per se".  

You acted on assumption based on reasonable logic! this IS the wrong thing to do. If you assumed based on reasonable logic then thats good...but its when you acted that made you illogical because you acted without all the facts. Point is dont assume that anyone is anything because you might have been unjust to that person.

Modifié par KevShep, 23 juin 2011 - 11:46 .

[KevShep]

gridlockSG400...Reapers are all about immortality so it would be nice to go for that ending, if you have to sacrifice trillions and trillions of races every 50 thousand years then maybe immortality is not worth it. I dont know what to think about them being "infinite". They must of had a start if there made of matter. I vote that the reapers are just being dicks.

[SandTrout]

You acted on assumption based on reasonable logic! this IS the wrong thing to do. If you assumed based on reasonable logic then thats good...but its when you acted that made you illogical because you acted without all the facts. Point is dont assume that anyone is anything because you might have been unjust to that person.

I must base my actions on something, and barring evidence, reasonable assumptions are all that there is. It is by no means my preferred means of rendering judgement, but I believe that I gave adequate opportunity for you to explain yourself more clearly before implying a lack of aptitude on your part, and then the lack of aptitude I was implying was in regards to your ability to express yourself in a written format, which you admitted explicitly before my rude comment (sorry about that, I did come off as snotty).

My contention with your theory was that I could find fairly serious flaws, and you were not able to adequately argue against the flaws that I pointed out, and you kept citing evidence which was highly questionable in its nature with regard to how it was relevant to the argument.

[100k]

Another slightly far fetched idea I had was that the Reapers actually come from another galaxy altogether, and to maintain the security and resources of that galaxy, the come to the Milky Way. Like farmers, they "harvest" a galaxy of resources, before returning home. Hence the 50,000 year wait between Cycle wars. They can travel the vast expanse of space between galaxies in something like 20,000 years.