180 réponses à ce sujet

[Ponendus]

The thing that confuses me about DA2, is that it uses practically the same formula as Mass Effect, the cinematic, framed narrative, preset protagonist style. There is no doubt that Mass Effect was wildly popular with the RPG crowd and the sci-fi crowd (or at least I think it was).

So, assuming all this negativity on the forums is actually representative of how most people feel about the game, why didn't it work for DA2? Is it because those that are a fan of the 'fantasy' genre prefer to make their own character? Or because they prefer a more open world experience? Is it as simple as that? Does anyone else know why this formula may not have worked as well?

[Doyle41]

I think, personally, that Origins allowed the players to get more from the gaming experience. Origins allowed several different stories to transpire. It allowed for a more versatile game playing experience as far as character development and armor and weapon selection. I like some of the innovations, but many features that were favored from Origins were omitted or taken from the sequel.

I also think it was a tactical error in the marketing department by billing this as Dragon Age II ( hindsight). Following DA:O was like George Lucas releasing the New Star Wars movies. The bar was set super high. I think that it is most important that the gamers remember that this story seems very important in moving the Origins story along. If Every game played like Origins, you would eventually tire of the gameplay and not play. Also, people are constantly ranting about plot holes or inconsistant stories and lore discrepancies. If all games were as broad as Origins as far as choices and how it effects the game, then it would probably become more problematic.

I think it was a solid entry, although I'm a little disappointed.

[DTKT]

I dont mind not creating my own character as long as the story is well crafted and engaging.

DAII did not meet those criterias. It did not fail because it gave you a rigid template. It failed because of many other shortcomings in it's design and production value.

Reducing it's issues to a single issue is impossible.

[Ponendus]

Fair enough. I think it has just tainted my view of this formula. I worry next time I see a fantasy RPG with these game mechanics I'm instantly going to think 'oh great, they've ruined it'. Perhaps I'm just still just trying to work out what I didn't like about DA2. There's definitely something...

[Mavkiel]

I have nothing against the character, nor the plot. The game however really was to short. The game breaking and quest breaking bugs also ruined my enjoyment.

Introducing characters with, "Remember me, we worked on job x together". Is also a big immersion killer. No, I dont remember them, because I never met the bloody person before. They pulled that at least three times.

[Vicious]

It's never just one thing.

I loved being Geralt in the Witcher, Shepard in Mass Effect, Ezio in Assassin's Creed, etc.

There just wasn't much of a connection to be made with Hawke. The game was insanely short and the time skips... suck.

Preset protagonist isn't a bad thing as long as the storytelling and gameplay are there.

They weren't.

Modifié par Vicious, 30 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Ponendus wrote...

The thing that confuses me about DA2, is that it uses practically the same formula as Mass Effect, the cinematic, framed narrative, preset protagonist style. There is no doubt that Mass Effect was wildly popular with the RPG crowd and the sci-fi crowd (or at least I think it was).

So, assuming all this negativity on the forums is actually representative of how most people feel about the game, why didn't it work for DA2? Is it because those that are a fan of the 'fantasy' genre prefer to make their own character? Or because they prefer a more open world experience? Is it as simple as that? Does anyone else know why this formula may not have worked as well?

DA was never meant to be a ME clone, Brent Knowles made it for a different group of players, fantasy, BG, D&D crowd. It worked, it got the interest and because of that became a triple A rated title and won many awards based of this. Mike Laidlaw wanted to turn it more into ME style title which didn't work for many reasons. The original DA title in series wasn't created to please the ME fans it was unique and as such attracted players with the same interests as Knowles. Even in ME the choices you made had more effect than DA2, Rachni, Council and so on. In ME series you wasn't limited to one planet, it spanned many (a downgrade to this was ME2 which for me personally was a bad decision because it took same amount of time to scan planets as did to explore them only you got to stare at a rotating object rather than scenery). Also DA2 feels rushed for many reasons in many regards which effects quality, for those reasons just take a peek at forums because if I listed them all here my fingers would fall off from so much typing. As well as many other reasons. 

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[DTKT]

Mavkiel wrote...

I have nothing against the character, nor the plot. The game however really was to short. The game breaking and quest breaking bugs also ruined my enjoyment.

Introducing characters with, "Remember me, we worked on job x together". Is also a big immersion killer. No, I dont remember them, because I never met the bloody person before. They pulled that at least three times.

Glad I'm not the only one who was slightly annoyed by that thing.

It was a really strange design. How do you expect the player to figure out how you know that random NPC if he has never met him before? If felt incredibly artificial.

It made me question why it was even included. It was one cutscene that added nothing to the meat of the story.

[Dragoonlordz]

DTKT wrote...

Mavkiel wrote...

I have nothing against the character, nor the plot. The game however really was to short. The game breaking and quest breaking bugs also ruined my enjoyment.

Introducing characters with, "Remember me, we worked on job x together". Is also a big immersion killer. No, I dont remember them, because I never met the bloody person before. They pulled that at least three times.

Glad I'm not the only one who was slightly annoyed by that thing.

It was a really strange design. How do you expect the player to figure out how you know that random NPC if he has never met him before? If felt incredibly artificial.

It made me question why it was even included. It was one cutscene that added nothing to the meat of the story.

[Maverick827]

Vicious wrote...

It's never just one thing.

I loved being Geralt in the Witcher, Shepard in Mass Effect, Ezio in Assassin's Creed, etc.

There just wasn't much of a connection to be made with Hawke. The game was insanely short and the time skips... suck.

Preset protagonist isn't a bad thing as long as the storytelling and gameplay are there.

They weren't.

That's odd, I felt closer to Hawke than any character in a game before, save perhaps John Marsden, and I'm still not even sure whether or not I found that character compelling solely because of that game's soundtrack.

[barenas]

That's not the issue. There are plenty of CRPGs where you cannot make your own character. The biggest example is the aforementioned Witcher, which had even less options to make the character your own.

[planed scaped]

I have been playing fantasy RPG's since 1997 and I love and much prefer voiced protagonists.

zomg!

[Alelsa]

Ponendus wrote...
So, assuming all this negativity on the forums is actually representative of how most people feel about the game, why didn't it work for DA2? Is it because those that are a fan of the 'fantasy' genre prefer to make their own character? Or because they prefer a more open world experience? Is it as simple as that? Does anyone else know why this formula may not have worked as well?

Discounting the mindless rants of "it sucks", etc, the main complaints appear to be

a) That it was rushed, and it shows.
That it was too much of a change from DA:O.

Personally, I was only really bothered by the recycled areas.  That doesn't mean I can't pick on numerous things I would have changed to make it perfect for me, but I doubt those changes would have worked for everyone else

I'm a big fan of open world games, but that doesn't mean that's all I want to play - I'm happy enough with the DA series not allowing me to roam every inch of the countryside looking for hidden secrets.  I have other games I can do that in.

Character customisation isn't that big a deal for me.  I can take a pregenerated character or design my own, an RPG is still an RPG to me either way.  I feel a similar way about companion armor - what they wear is up to them, I treat them as NPCs who just happen to follow my combat instructions if they feel like it.  I've played RPGs where there wasn't an option to pick skills, etc for companions when they level up, and that didn't hurt my opinion of the game either.

I wish we hadn't lost non-combat skills.  An RPG shouldn't be just about minmaxing a character to be the ultimate killing machine.  Making the decision to put points into (for example) negotiation/charisma-based talents to give me access to better conversation options at the cost of my combat skills should be a choice in an RPG.

I didn't mind the graphical redesign.  However, it irks me a little that the time was spent on that when it could have been more constructively used elsewhere.  On the other hand, maybe they had specialist character artists sitting around who wouldn't have been any use designing ten different cave systems, and just made the contribution they could.   I hope there was a good reason like that for why we got redesigned races and recycled areas rather than the other way around.

All of that aside, I'm not the type of person that rates a game a ten then deducts for each and every little criticism I can think of.  I compare it to the average of other games available to me at the moment, which puts DA2 far ahead of most others I could be playing right now.  To put it another way - something written by Bioware even on their worst day still manages to beat most other games for me, and provided me with something I enjoyed playing and will likely run through at least a couple more times.

[DTKT]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Mavkiel wrote...

I have nothing against the character, nor the plot. The game however really was to short. The game breaking and quest breaking bugs also ruined my enjoyment.

Introducing characters with, "Remember me, we worked on job x together". Is also a big immersion killer. No, I dont remember them, because I never met the bloody person before. They pulled that at least three times.

Glad I'm not the only one who was slightly annoyed by that thing.

It was a really strange design. How do you expect the player to figure out how you know that random NPC if he has never met him before? If felt incredibly artificial.

It made me question why it was even included. It was one cutscene that added nothing to the meat of the story.

Hahaha.

Made my night.

It makes me wonder why Bioware didnt add an intro sequence in Lothering. Not too much content. Maybe a few quests. Maybe a few tutorials?

Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.  A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

Because honestly, I didnt give a damn about my mother or my sister. The comical death scene of your sibling also doesnt help.

[planed scaped]

DTKT wrote...

Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did
something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through
your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.
 A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped
tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

And then on our 3rd or 4th playthrough we could download a skip loathering mod so doing the beginning a bunch of times wouldn't be an issue. Yet actually learning about your family so you give a **** when Bethany/Carver die would add a lot.

[Alelsa]

DTKT wrote...
Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did
something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through
your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.
 A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped
tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

Yup, that would have been really nice to have.  It was a shame we got thrown straight into combat right at the beginning, and didn't get to spend "a quiet day at home with the family", maybe just before the darkspawn started crawling in the windows after us

[Dragoonlordz]

DTKT wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Mavkiel wrote...

I have nothing against the character, nor the plot. The game however really was to short. The game breaking and quest breaking bugs also ruined my enjoyment.

Introducing characters with, "Remember me, we worked on job x together". Is also a big immersion killer. No, I dont remember them, because I never met the bloody person before. They pulled that at least three times.

Glad I'm not the only one who was slightly annoyed by that thing.

It was a really strange design. How do you expect the player to figure out how you know that random NPC if he has never met him before? If felt incredibly artificial.

It made me question why it was even included. It was one cutscene that added nothing to the meat of the story.

Hahaha.

Made my night.

It makes me wonder why Bioware didnt add an intro sequence in Lothering. Not too much content. Maybe a few quests. Maybe a few tutorials?

Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.  A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

Because honestly, I didnt give a damn about my mother or my sister. The comical death scene of your sibling also doesnt help.

That reminds me I need to pick up a new copy of ME2 soon, the PS3 version comes with some sort of intro comic thing doesn't it? Interactive one to make up for M$ blocking the release of ME1 on PS3 due to contract clause. I do actually own ME1 but on 360 but want to switch more to PS3 titles atm, until I upgrade my PC some point when I can be arsed which probably won't be for few months till Dues Ex HR and Witcher 2 comes out.

[neppakyo]

Thats an actual brilliant idea. Man, too bad the DA2 devs/writers didn't have any...

[DTKT]

Origins for DAII anyone?

Your upbringing in Lothering!

Were you born in Lothering.
Were you a refugee?
The son of the local corrupt and wealthy merchant?

Infancy with the Chantry teachings and the Templars role.

After that, a different path depending on your class.
Rogue: Rolls around with a bunch of "friends". Mischiefs abound!
Warrior: Train under an old wise man. The "old veteran" archetype.
Mage: Discover your power through a small cutscene. Alone in a clearing at night. Starting at some logs. Logs suddenly caught ablaze. 2 possible paths. A templar comes along and takes pity of you. Doesnt take you in to the circle. You master your power on your own.
Second scenario, a mage secretly takes you under his wing and helps you master your own power.

All 3 path would server as an introduction to your class and most basic skills.

Add the rune/crafting system and you successfully created something much more interesting that text boxes.

All that would shape your relation with your mother and Bethany/Carver.

Modifié par DTKT, 30 mars 2011 - 04:29 .

[Mavkiel]

DTKT wrote...

Origins for DAII anyone?

Your upbringing in Lothering!

Were you born in Lothering.
Were you a refugee?
The son of the local corrupt and wealthy merchant?

Infancy with the Chantry teachings and the Templars role.

After that, a different path depending on your class.
Rogue: Rolls around with a bunch of "friends". Mischiefs abound!
Warrior: Train under an old wise man. The "old veteran" archetype.
Mage: Discover your power through a small cutscene. Alone in a clearing at night. Starting at some logs. Logs suddenly caught ablaze. 2 possible paths. A templar comes along and takes pity of you. Doesnt take you in to the circle. You master your power on your own.
Second scenario, a mage secretly takes you under his wing and helps you master your own power.

All 3 path would server as an introduction to your class and most basic skills.

Add the rune/crafting system and you successfully created something much more interesting that text boxes.

All that would shape your relation with your mother and Bethany/Carver.

To complicated, I'd have settled for some mentioning of the father,  being shown around your house(or hut). Something that allows you to compare what your living conditions are like in act 1 kirkwall. perhaps a couple quests that allow you to make some connection to your family before fleeing.

[neppakyo]

DTKT wrote...

Origins for DAII anyone?

Your upbringing in Lothering!

Were you born in Lothering.
Were you a refugee?
The son of the local corrupt and wealthy merchant?

Infancy with the Chantry teachings and the Templars role.

After that, a different path depending on your class.
Rogue: Rolls around with a bunch of "friends". Mischiefs abound!
Warrior: Train under an old wise man. The "old veteran" archetype.
Mage: Discover your power through a small cutscene. Alone in a clearing at night. Starting at some logs. Logs suddenly caught ablaze. 2 possible paths. A templar comes along and takes pity of you. Doesnt take you in to the circle. You master your power on your own.
Second scenario, a mage secretly takes you under his wing and helps you master your own power.

All 3 path would server as an introduction to your class and most basic skills.

Add the rune/crafting system and you successfully created something much more interesting that text boxes.

All that would shape your relation with your mother and Bethany/Carver.

That would of made DA2 more enjoyable. Funny how some consumers have better idea's than companies that are paid to do it..

[DTKT]

Mavkiel wrote...

DTKT wrote...

Origins for DAII anyone?

Your upbringing in Lothering!

Were you born in Lothering.
Were you a refugee?
The son of the local corrupt and wealthy merchant?

Infancy with the Chantry teachings and the Templars role.

After that, a different path depending on your class.
Rogue: Rolls around with a bunch of "friends". Mischiefs abound!
Warrior: Train under an old wise man. The "old veteran" archetype.
Mage: Discover your power through a small cutscene. Alone in a clearing at night. Starting at some logs. Logs suddenly caught ablaze. 2 possible paths. A templar comes along and takes pity of you. Doesnt take you in to the circle. You master your power on your own.
Second scenario, a mage secretly takes you under his wing and helps you master your own power.

All 3 path would server as an introduction to your class and most basic skills.

Add the rune/crafting system and you successfully created something much more interesting that text boxes.

All that would shape your relation with your mother and Bethany/Carver.

To complicated, I'd have settled for some mentioning of the father,  being shown around your house(or hut). Something that allows you to compare what your living conditions are like in act 1 kirkwall. perhaps a couple quests that allow you to make some connection to your family before fleeing.

But more content is better!

Just kidding, yeah, it would have probably been too long. Oh well, that's what you get for mixing Flu and extra-strong anti flu meds! 

[Doyle41]

Mavkiel wrote...
To complicated, I'd have settled for some mentioning of the father,  being shown around your house(or hut). Something that allows you to compare what your living conditions are like in act 1 kirkwall. perhaps a couple quests that allow you to make some connection to your family before fleeing.

That, as well as, the Amell mage in the Ferelden Circle. Too many loose ends with Hawke. Possible DLC's though.

[Mavkiel]

I am going to take a wait an see approach with dlcs. They pretty much burned up any credit that they had with this buggy release. That and it honestly felt like half a game.

All that being said, I liked the dialog, the inter-party chatter, the companion specific interrupts.

[shaneho78]

Alelsa wrote...

All of that aside, I'm not the type of person that rates a game a ten then deducts for each and every little criticism I can think of.  I compare it to the average of other games available to me at the moment, which puts DA2 far ahead of most others I could be playing right now.  To put it another way - something written by Bioware even on their worst day still manages to beat most other games for me, and provided me with something I enjoyed playing and will likely run through at least a couple more times.

This. Thumbs up for you. :happy: