180 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

I didn't play or enjoy Mass Effect for many of the same reasons I don't care much for DA2. I found the preset character and the dialogue wheel distancing and couldn't get into the character. There wasn't enough roleplay for me and I felt like I was merely influencing an NPC. The emphasis on cinematics was even more distancing. They're good games in their style, they're just not a type of game that I like to play. ME1 was far more interesting to me than ME2, but I still couldn't get into it.

[Wyndham711]

I haven't yet played an RPG where I could roleplay with a voiced character. In my opinion it doesn't work and it can't work. That doesn't necesserally utterly ruin the game though, provided that the writers make the the PC a very interesting, well defined one in return. I dislike with passion the kind of PC in ME and DA2, where he manages to be distinct and bland at the same time. If you really insist on having a voiced PC, at the very least make them something in the lines of Geralt from the Witcher.

[Morroian]

Vicious wrote...

It's never just one thing.

I loved being Geralt in the Witcher, Shepard in Mass Effect, Ezio in Assassin's Creed, etc.

There just wasn't much of a connection to be made with Hawke. The game was insanely short and the time skips... suck.

40-50 hours is insanely short?

[planed scaped]

I can easily roleplay as a voiced protagonist. >__>

Each person is different, Hawke does need a lot more depth though, 3 dialog options is not enough.

Also DA2 took me 53h. That is very short for me considering Origins took me 98h and ME2 took me 73h.... And I had a 134h BG2 game once. I will admit though I was on painkillers from surgery during my ME2 playthrough, staring at the galaxy map was a joygasmic experience of fun.

Modifié par planed scaped, 30 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[Morroian]

Wyndham711 wrote...

I haven't yet played an RPG where I could roleplay with a voiced character. In my opinion it doesn't work and it can't work.

It worked for me. IMHO it just comes down to personal preference and the way people play.

[Snowbug]

DTKT wrote...

It makes me wonder why Bioware didnt add an intro sequence in Lothering. Not too much content. Maybe a few quests. Maybe a few tutorials?

Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.  A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

Because honestly, I didnt give a damn about my mother or my sister. The comical death scene of your sibling also doesnt help.

Amusingly enough, one of the popular advices given to writers these days is "start with the action".
(Which I rarely agree with.)

[Zmajc]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

That pretty much summs it up. You can't just jump in the middle of action with characters you know absolutely nothing about then say "this are your mother and sisters you care for them very very much". 

They could only do that if the game was a (true) sequel and you got to know the characters and their background story in first game.  

An introduction where you got to know them before Darkspawn invasion would have been a must.

Modifié par Zmajc, 30 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Goldfinger168]

I watched someone play Mass Effect for a few hours and it was probably as much fun as playing the game myself, if not more (I didn't have to do the shooting). You're just watching Shepard do stuff with very little personal input, and DA2 has that same vibe for me : I'm just pulling strings instead of playing the character. My Hawke is the same as many other Hawkes.

My DA:O character had more personality and she had her own voice. DA:O was very railroaded too but it's the small details that make your character come to life.

Besides, in a RPG which has elves, dwarfs and qunaris, the last race I want to play is human.

[graavigala85]

 Hawke feels too empty.
The game starts with 4 completely unkown characters, yes I included your character on this too, and you are expected to have somekind on emotional tie to them. When I first played the game and Carver died I didnt feel a thing. The only thing I tought was "****, my dps warrior is gone! Now i hate to respec!"

If Bioware would just have made little tutorial part to the game that shows the lifebefore the Blight, before the darkspawn attacked Lothering. That way you could do little quests that also introduces you to the characters.

I will take Assassin's Creed 2 on this for a VERY good example. In that game you had to do little quests that introduced you to the world and characters and also made you care about them, it made a connection to the characters with very little things being added to game. When your father and brothers died in AC2 it was a shock! You had lost important persons and it felt bad. Why? Because you had made a connection to the characters by using time to introducing them to you.

[Byth]

Hawke felt like my character to me, voice or no voice. I felt the same kind of connection to Hawke that I did to The Warden, I don't see how having a voice reduces RPing.

[Ieolus]

It was definitely a mistake for them to 'start with the action'. I look at the DA:O noble origin as comparison... you get to know your family before they are (almost) all slaughtered, and I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly felt something. Hawke and his family, not so much.

[Dridengx]

Ponendus wrote...

The thing that confuses me about DA2, is that it uses practically the same formula as Mass Effect, the cinematic, framed narrative, preset protagonist style. There is no doubt that Mass Effect was wildly popular with the RPG crowd and the sci-fi crowd (or at least I think it was).

So, assuming all this negativity on the forums is actually representative of how most people feel about the game, why didn't it work for DA2? Is it because those that are a fan of the 'fantasy' genre prefer to make their own character? Or because they prefer a more open world experience? Is it as simple as that? Does anyone else know why this formula may not have worked as well?

it's because ME2 is catered to RPGers who play games and understand a game is like a book, you take what you are given and enjoy the ride. They adapt, they have fun and while not perfect they move on.

Where DAO trolls on these forums are like Starwars turds who want to write their own story and try to bully the writers telling them how to write their own story. They want to be incharge of how everything plays out, they want Bioware to fill their needs and wants INSTEAD of experiencing what Bioware is offering.

These are the same turds who whined about how DAO wasn't Baldur's Gate remember? They have never been happy, which is probably why Bioware doesn't listen to them lol

Modifié par Dridengx, 30 mars 2011 - 08:53 .

[Deylar]

Alelsa wrote...

DTKT wrote...
Create something with your mother, sister and brother. Fallout did
something similar. You started as a child in the vault, went through
your anniversary, the SPECIAL test and finally when you exit the Vault.
 A similar flow could have been used for DAII. It would have helped
tremendously with the flow and how attached you are to the NPC's.

Yup, that would have been really nice to have.  It was a shame we got thrown straight into combat right at the beginning, and didn't get to spend "a quiet day at home with the family", maybe just before the darkspawn started crawling in the windows after us

Even in Fable 2 and Fable and Fable 3. You start off the quiet day before the **** storm happens. Its what attached me to my premade character.

It isn't that I have a problem with premade characters. Its how they implement them into the story. If I'm thrown into a story and been forced to care for some people most likely connection is going to get lost.

[cindercatz]

DTKT wrote...

Origins for DAII anyone?

Your upbringing in Lothering!

Were you born in Lothering.
Were you a refugee?
The son of the local corrupt and wealthy merchant?

Infancy with the Chantry teachings and the Templars role.

After that, a different path depending on your class.
Rogue: Rolls around with a bunch of "friends". Mischiefs abound!
Warrior: Train under an old wise man. The "old veteran" archetype.
Mage: Discover your power through a small cutscene. Alone in a clearing at night. Starting at some logs. Logs suddenly caught ablaze. 2 possible paths. A templar comes along and takes pity of you. Doesnt take you in to the circle. You master your power on your own.
Second scenario, a mage secretly takes you under his wing and helps you master your own power.

All 3 path would server as an introduction to your class and most basic skills.

Add the rune/crafting system and you successfully created something much more interesting that text boxes.

All that would shape your relation with your mother and Bethany/Carver.

Exactly. They could've just as easily allowed multiple races without changing the voices and had Bethany and Carver as *possible* siblings or aquaintances, depending on your origin. There's zero reason you can't have the voiced protagonist and multiple origins.

The mage family origin already exists, and your mage mentor could've been your father, who barely rates mention in the game we got.

The Chantry origin could've cameo'd Leliana.

The functionary's kid origin could've sent you out to apprehend Sten.

You could be a city elf refugee who has to survive bandits before you can even think about Darkspawn.

You could be a surface dwarf merchant who gets caught outside town trying to scavenge supplies.

They could all have the same accent and voice, all common Fereldans. I would welcome fifteen less pointless side missions for just three missions per origin. I'd have something to base my character on, a set of established values and relationships, and replayability on par with Origins. And at the end of the opening, I choose who I have to let die, ala ME's Virmire.

There's just so much missed opportunity in this game. In fact, they should patch all this in as DLC now. The opening missions with all of like eight to ten voice actors tops for the whole thing, stick the cinematic scenes to match your character's height, a few extra minor dialogue lines for the rest of the game (like two each from Merril's and Varric's VAs, a few lines for each player character VA, a couple from Bethany and Carver, a couple generic voice lines for less central NPCs, using the same actors to voice any new characters in the origins), and you've got a major improvement to the entire game. I'd even pay the extra ten bucks for the DLC just for the replayability alone. That'd add a heck of a lot more to the game than 'generic side quest #10 in year three', for example.

[AkiKishi]

Each orign gave a slightly different spin on how a particular character viewed the world. Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner for example has different personal stakes in who became king.

It comes down to this. Is roleplaying just about dircecting the story in the way you want it to go, or is about how your character reacts to the world ?

With a pre-gen character there are no wrong choices, even randomly clicking will not be "out of character" when you have a created personality that is not the case.

I could just as easily watch Hawke and Shepard play out JRPG style and feel like I've lost nothing. Picking from a list for a character that already has an established personality feels rather redundant. Sure I can play "Paragon" Shepard or "Sarcastic" Hawke, but those are my choices , nothing to really do with developing a character personality.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 30 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

Dridengx wrote...

it's because ME2 is catered to RPGers who play games and understand a game is like a book, you take what you are given and enjoy the ride. They adapt, they have fun and while not perfect they move on.

Where DAO trolls on these forums are like Starwars turds who want to write their own story and try to bully the writers telling them how to write their own story. They want to be incharge of how everything plays out, they want Bioware to fill their needs and wants INSTEAD of experiencing what Bioware is offering.

These are the same turds who whined about how DAO wasn't Baldur's Gate remember? They have never been happy, which is probably why Bioware doesn't listen to them lol

I dont understand why so many people are offended by complaining. Yes RPG are like novels but if the sequal to my favorite fantasy novel came out as a horror mystery with a completly unconnected plot I would at  least be confused if not angry. Not because the book was a bad horror novel but because the told me it was the sequal.  An author can put out a list of gibberish words and call that the sequal to his novel. While he has the right to do so, its still a dick move.  Bioware can make and do what ever it wants but we have the right to ask them to respect how much thier games meant to us.

Modifié par SIx_Foot_Imp, 30 mars 2011 - 09:41 .

[Solo80]

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Planescape: Torment used a "set" protagonist, and it's still lauded as one of the all time classic greats, even (especially) by the hardcore, old-school gamers.

Having Hawke as a protagonist isn't the problem - the problem is how he's used in the story.

As for the beginning, I really felt the comic hit the nail on the head - having a protagonist with a past starting off in the middle of an action scene, without the player actually knowing anything about him/her apart from what the player's being told through text, and almost immediately having something emotionally significant happen to him = immediate disconnect.

"Show, don't tell" is a basic storytelling principle, and that Bioware, of all studios, managed to miss this is nothing short of astounding.

[AkiKishi]

Solo80 wrote...

Surprised nobody has mentioned this yet, but Planescape: Torment used a "set" protagonist, and it's still lauded as one of the all time classic greats, even (especially) by the hardcore, old-school gamers.

Having Hawke as a protagonist isn't the problem - the problem is how he's used in the story.

As for the beginning, I really felt the comic hit the nail on the head - having a protagonist with a past starting off in the middle of an action scene, without the player actually knowing anything about him/her apart from what the player's being told through text, and almost immediately having something emotionally significant happen to him = immediate disconnect.

"Show, don't tell" is a basic storytelling principle, and that Bioware, of all studios, managed to miss this is nothing short of astounding.

Set protagonist with amnesia, that little detail makes all the difference. PST was all about discovering your past and how those discoveries changed how you viewed yourself over the course of the game and ultimately which of the I think it was 18? endings you picked.

Because TNO starts with amnesia you and he are in the same situation, not knowing anything. Hawke knows stuff that you don't and that makes him disconnected from you.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 30 mars 2011 - 10:52 .

[Visanideth]

I think it's an issue of accessibility and gratification.

Let's make a quick comparison:

- DA:O allowed you to create your character
- Once your character was created, the dialogue options in the entire game were "fixed" (the way you played the game, aside from stacking points in Persuasion, didn't alter your options)
- you could go from ruthless to clowny in the same dialogue with no consequence or continuity
- the only factor influencing dialogue was your Origin story, ie character generation

DA2 has:

- dynamic conversations that evolve depending on how you play your character
- different events depending on the personality you developed for him
- different lines of conversation triggered by the same wheel entry depending on how you played your character till then (same dialogue, aggressive option, an aggressive character may get a different answer from a sarcastic one


Now, it's obvious that in terms of roleplay integration DA2 is miles ahead, not only DA:O but also the competition. The personality you give your character is completely woven in the narrative and gameplay.
Still people feel "chained" by playing Hawke and not "their" character.

The problem is that even if DA2 gives you more freedom and a much, much deeper system of roleplay interaction with characters and events, most players aren't willing to sink that deep. It's a too complex system for most, and it's actually a lot more immediate and acceptable to them to have a character the world doesn't react to, because it allows them to make him exactly what they want.

Basically, the Warden didn't exist in the game. Aside from his race, every NPC in the game reacted to all Wardens across thousands of different playthrough in the same way. By not existing, it could be anything the player wanted.

I think in the mind of many it's a case of "less is more". I violently disagree, and think that the "Hawke system" is the best thing Bioware did in years, but on this point I think I'm in the minority. It's a lot of effort and quality programming that is gonna be wasted on a huge part of the fanbase because they would rather not have a main character and play pretend with their fantasy than having an entire game working around the idea of roleplaying a character they didn't generate.

[AkiKishi]

Visanideth wrote...

I think it's an issue of accessibility and gratification.

Let's make a quick comparison:

- DA:O allowed you to create your character
- Once your character was created, the dialogue options in the entire game were "fixed" (the way you played the game, aside from stacking points in Persuasion, didn't alter your options)
- you could go from ruthless to clowny in the same dialogue with no consequence or continuity
- the only factor influencing dialogue was your Origin story, ie character generation

DA2 has:

- dynamic conversations that evolve depending on how you play your character
- different events depending on the personality you developed for him
- different lines of conversation triggered by the same wheel entry depending on how you played your character till then (same dialogue, aggressive option, an aggressive character may get a different answer from a sarcastic one


Now, it's obvious that in terms of roleplay integration DA2 is miles ahead, not only DA:O but also the competition. The personality you give your character is completely woven in the narrative and gameplay.
Still people feel "chained" by playing Hawke and not "their" character.

The problem is that even if DA2 gives you more freedom and a much, much deeper system of roleplay interaction with characters and events, most players aren't willing to sink that deep. It's a too complex system for most, and it's actually a lot more immediate and acceptable to them to have a character the world doesn't react to, because it allows them to make him exactly what they want.

Basically, the Warden didn't exist in the game. Aside from his race, every NPC in the game reacted to all Wardens across thousands of different playthrough in the same way. By not existing, it could be anything the player wanted.

I think in the mind of many it's a case of "less is more". I violently disagree, and think that the "Hawke system" is the best thing Bioware did in years, but on this point I think I'm in the minority. It's a lot of effort and quality programming that is gonna be wasted on a huge part of the fanbase because they would rather not have a main character and play pretend with their fantasy than having an entire game working around the idea of roleplaying a character they didn't generate.

My question to you then is this: Why does Hawke need any player input at all with conversation ?

[Zmajc]

Visanideth wrote...

I think it's an issue of accessibility and gratification.

Let's make a quick comparison:

- DA:O allowed you to create your character
- Once your character was created, the dialogue options in the entire game were "fixed" (the way you played the game, aside from stacking points in Persuasion, didn't alter your options)
- you could go from ruthless to clowny in the same dialogue with no consequence or continuity
- the only factor influencing dialogue was your Origin story, ie character generation

DA2 has:

- dynamic conversations that evolve depending on how you play your character
- different events depending on the personality you developed for him
- different lines of conversation triggered by the same wheel entry depending on how you played your character till then (same dialogue, aggressive option, an aggressive character may get a different answer from a sarcastic one


Now, it's obvious that in terms of roleplay integration DA2 is miles ahead, not only DA:O but also the competition. The personality you give your character is completely woven in the narrative and gameplay.
Still people feel "chained" by playing Hawke and not "their" character.

The problem is that even if DA2 gives you more freedom and a much, much deeper system of roleplay interaction with characters and events, most players aren't willing to sink that deep. It's a too complex system for most, and it's actually a lot more immediate and acceptable to them to have a character the world doesn't react to, because it allows them to make him exactly what they want.

Basically, the Warden didn't exist in the game. Aside from his race, every NPC in the game reacted to all Wardens across thousands of different playthrough in the same way. By not existing, it could be anything the player wanted.

I think in the mind of many it's a case of "less is more". I violently disagree, and think that the "Hawke system" is the best thing Bioware did in years, but on this point I think I'm in the minority. It's a lot of effort and quality programming that is gonna be wasted on a huge part of the fanbase because they would rather not have a main character and play pretend with their fantasy than having an entire game working around the idea of roleplaying a character they didn't generate.

Maybe this would work out better if you had more than 3 dialogue options.

Also ... what if you select a different answer every dialogue not allways a  fixed "good" "bad" "xyz" answer every time? Because i varied my answers alot  and i didn't feel my hawk develop into any of those distinct personalities.

Another problem i see is that there's basically only 1 fixed ending. Whathever you do, whoever you become
you allways do same fixed decisions game makes for you.

I can't remember how many times i wanted to make a middle ground decision that simply wasn't there or wanted to kill someone i wasn't allowed to. 

Past games had so much more options there.

Modifié par Zmajc, 30 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[blacqout]

Zmajc wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

That pretty much summs it up. You can't just jump in the middle of action with characters you know absolutely nothing about then say "this are your mother and sisters you care for them very very much". 

They could only do that if the game was a (true) sequel and you got to know the characters and their background story in first game.  

An introduction where you got to know them before Darkspawn invasion would have been a must.

Uhm, no it wouldn't have. The DAII prologue works pretty well in establishing the Hawke's as a fairly tight-knit family unit. That they're instantly with you as the game starts, sends some strong unconscious messages.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, you knew that Bethany, Leandra, Carver and Hawke were family. I take the spelling mistakes in that graphic to be somewhat indicative of its overall quality.

Anybody that seriously needed a big builld up to introducing family members has my pity.

Also, as far as the "remember me" conversations go in act 1, i kind of liked them. They offered some insight into what Hawke was doing in his first year, and leave you free to use your imagination a little. The conversation between Hawke and Elegant was suggestive enough that if you like, you could reasonably assume that the two had more than a professional relationship at some point.

[Visanideth]

BobSmith101 wrote...

My question to you then is this: Why does Hawke need any player input at all with conversation ?

Because "Hawke" is the role, you're the actor. That is what roleplay in videogames can be.

Hawke is a character - he has a family, origin, and a set of events ahead of him.
We're like actors playing him. You're Robert DeNiro playing him, your Hawke is a somewhat diplomatic, somewhat sarcastic fellow who pretends not to care but helpes everyone. I'm Gerald Butler playing him, my Hawke is a roid-raged warrior who's pissed at everything and believes in getting things his way no matter what.

And the game will react to that. You'll shape the character, and the world will react to that, giving you different conversations and tones.


Now, would we all prefer to have a system that does that AND lets you create your own character? Much likely. Problem is, I don't see it as doable, Bioware probably doesn't, and the alternative is having a character you create and has NO input whatsoever in the game aside from picking answers from a list that doesn't change if your character is a charitable templar or a bloodthirsty cutthroat.

[AkiKishi]

blacqout wrote...
Uhm, no it wouldn't have. The DAII prologue works pretty well in establishing the Hawke's as a fairly tight-knit family unit. That they're instantly with you as the game starts, sends some strong unconscious messages.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, you knew that Bethany, Leandra, Carver and Hawke were family. I take the spelling mistakes in that graphic to be somewhat indicative of its overall quality.

Anybody that seriously needed a big builld up to introducing family members has my pity.

Also, as far as the "remember me" conversations go in act 1, i kind of liked them. They offered some insight into what Hawke was doing in his first year, and leave you free to use your imagination a little. The conversation between Hawke and Elegant was suggestive enough that if you like, you could reasonably assume that the two had more than a professional relationship at some point.

I'm pretty sure if a family member were to be squished by an Ogre I could manage a bit more than meh, let's keep moving.

[Cutlass Jack]

I find myself agreeing with Visanideth again. He nailed it on nearly every point.

You create your character equally as much as you did Origins. The only difference between the two is the different origin choice itself. You get stuck with a last name the same way, you can't pick your family, you can't pick any path that prevents you from joining into the main storyline at exactly the same point.

I suppose what I loved about DA2 is it had the one Origin I always felt was missing from Origins. The Human commoner. That I really dove into the personality system and ended up with a Hawke that was distincively mine sealed the deal. I connected with him in a way I never did with my Warden and Shepard (which is not to say I didn't like both)