409 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

xSTONEYx187x wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Says the person who regards ME2 as pure gold. Just because some people don't have the mental capacity or patience to handle a highly detailed inventory system  ...

Needlepoint embroidery takes more mental capacity and patience than the ME1 inventory system. A lack of desire to lose oneself in such trifles is no sign of lacking either mental capacity or patience.

I've said it before and say it again now: What really ticks RPG elitists off is that somebody, anybody can go through one playthrough of ME2 and have a Shep who's just as powerful and just as well equipped as their carefully crafted creations, honed by such gimmicks as going through multiple playthroughs to level up persuasion and intimidation abilities by being made a Spectre multiple times rather than spending any points..

Mass Effect is and should be a story-driven game in which your character is trying to save all intelligent life in the galaxy, not some digitalized version of hand-painting and dressing up porcelain dolls.

Well put. I couldn't have said it better myself. 

Thirded for emphasis.

[Finis Valorum]

Legbiter wrote...

Yeah, I wanted a DLC where I could play dress-up and talk and talk. All this shooting was annoying.

It would have been better than this. I'd have liked to see a mostly diplomatic mission dlc for once.

[Nekator]

Lukertin wrote...

Seboist wrote...
And the worst part of it is that unlike in Dragon Age you're FORCED to pick up all that garbage loot and sort it out.

Even bettah is that characters who can't use certain weapons can equip them anyway.  Oh, I guess this is what the RPGs purists meant by "This genre of games is very sophisticated and requires you to think anything less is a dumbing down for console blablabla"

yeah.. blablabla sums up your post kinda good

and yes - it IS one of the things you have the freedom to do... sad thing so many people are overstrained with it.

[Sea Dragon]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

James2912 wrote...

games are getting dumber and dumber at least the blockbuster titles. because society seems to be getting dumber and dumber. Everybody wants instant satisfaction and RPGs are not about instant satisfaction. I have always thought of RPGs as more of a thinking man's video game, haha, Mass Effect is just following the same trend as every other big name title.

Wrong. Society is collectively getting smarter- more and more people are going to college and earning degrees and doing things once thought impossible. Are we wiser as a society? Not necessarily, but certainly smarter. Anyways, LotSB actually had MANY more RPG elements because of how personal the Liara/Shadowbroker conflict was to Shepard. Arrival was action orriented because, HOLY FREAKING SHIZ YOU'VE GOT 49 HOURS UNTIL CIVILIZATION ENDS AS WE KNOW IT!

...hm. So, where exactly was there time to talk and socialize with NPCs who are all (save one villain) about to die again? While yes, it was linear, at least you have to work for the stealth achievement. Not to mention the absolute beauty of some of the cutscenes. Also, I rushed through it. And it was still fun for me because you know what? It tied into the main plot. (gasp) BioWare did something right! Not to mention Harbinger finally giving me the bone-chilling sense of dread Sovereign did. So, actually, I was pretty pleased with this DLC. 

Sorry, this is completely off topic. It's also quite an old reply in terms of the thread but I just HAD to reply.

Society is NOT getting collectively smarter. The argument that ore and more people are going to college and earning degrees is not a reasonable assessment of inteligence.

We only need to look at the collective capabilities of western society. How many average people can do long multiplication or division, how many people can utilise mental arthimacy quickly and efficiently, how many people understand how words are formed so that they can spell correctly. Very few of us now have the basic fundamentals of maths and language that enable strong progression into the theories of science and other concepts.

Indeed applications like computers, calculators and the processor chip has removed the need for a lot of people to be very intelligent. In fact I would go so far as to say this;

The MOST intelligent of the human race are now exceptionally intelligent and there are 12 year olds out their who rival Einstien and some of the great compossers, artists, scientists, linguists and scholars.

However the AVERAGE human doesn't actual understand the theories that he/she talks about, they don't understand the real concepts behind them and can only relate the basic story as described by another intelligent person. Furthermore they increasingly rely on computers and calculators to solve problems for them and thus remove the need to properly understand the basic concepts that intelligence is built on.

In summary,

The smartest humans are smarter than every before,
The average humans can utilise tools to do things that their previous ancestors couldn't,
The least inteligent of us are even less inteligent.

Also, and I'll be shouted at here.
This is why games are getting progressively more linear and "simple". People can't be bothered to work through complex character 'builds' to have an effective character. They can't be bothered to select through a list of options to solve a puzzle and progress the story. They just want a cool cinematic and a character that can always resort to just killing everything to solve the puzzle.

I miss Ultima, I miss the concept of an RPG where sometimes blowing something up... killing someone just resulted in you being unable to complete the game. Not to disimilar from real societies where even if you are the president... commiting genocide is unlikely to go well for you.

EDIT:

Also want to add that more people are getting degrees... but in things like Fictional film studies... Media studies... PLEASE. A degree is a 3-4 year in depth study of a complicated and highly theoretical subject. I mean there are people out their who are apparently have as good a CV as I do... 1st in Physics = 1st in Fictional Film studies... What a load of bull****. That might seem rude but the reality is that these degree's often require less than 20 hours solid work a week to pass to a high grade whereas something like a traditional science, or maths, or English can end up requiring 50+ hours a week.
At the end of it the other person gets to run round saying they got a 1st in a degree... except it won't carry the weight of a traditional (read that as proper) degree when it comes to employment.

Modifié par Sea Dragon, 31 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[Thumb Fu]

In a quick response to this long and well thought out post. I simply quote the lead gameplay designer for the Mass Effect series chrsitina norman
"Mass effect 3 key fearures include richer rpg element "

Enough said.

[Seboist]

ME1's shooter elements were heavily flawed to it's core. Aside from the inventory issues there was the whole problem of having to spend points on weapons in order for my freaking sniper rifle to be able to hit the broad side of a barn that was five feet from me let alone a Geth on Eden prime. My first playthrough was as an infiltrator and I ended using the pistol in 95%(or more) of all my battles. It's really sad how a class that's supposed to be centered on the sniper rifle ends up with the pistol outclassing it to the point where the infiltrator can rush in and kill everything with a near-fully automatic pistol(with the help of adrenaline/pullonium) and not have to worry about taking cover.

So yeah, if not having to spend points so Shep can even hit the air that's around his target is "dumbing it down" then so be it.

ME2 Infiltrator > ME1 Infiltrator.

[Il Divo]

Winterfly wrote...
And you played Baldurs Gate? Dragon Age is not even close to Baldurs Gate. The infinty engine in my opinion still holds it against todays games. Dragon Age was a good game but I just wanted to rush it through to see the whole story.

I did indeed. It's hard to describe my feelings towards Bioware's earlier games (BG and NWN). I acknowledge their importance in setting up Bioware's later titles, but I wasn't a fan of their gameplay mechanics due to lack of originality. I play DnD every week, so dealing with the same 2.0/3.0 mechanics that I always have was rather dull. For this reason, I actually applauded DA:O for being Bioware's most complicated and original gameplay system.

But what exactly is your point? I was addressing your comment that you need to play the Wii to experience old school games like Baldur's Gate. DA:O, the spiritual successor made by the same developers. DA:O was not released for the Wii, so I assume you have some other title in mind.

[Whatever42]

Sea Dragon, the biggest difference is that I think more people are capable of rational thought. Long division is just another tool - its not an end in of itself. It is not a mark of intelligence. And frankly, I still think most people can do it, even if they don't. It's simply an inferior tool. Barring the collapse of civilization, not everyone needs to be fast at it. And if civilization collapses, frankly, learning how to cut down trees and build sod shacks will be a better primitive tool than long division.

No, the ability to think rationally is the greatest judge in measuring the advancement of human thinking. And I think we are doing better. We have huge room for improvement but at least most of us no longer want to burn witches or communists.

To make this ME2 related: ME2 haters are wrong, I am right. That is irrefutable and incontestable. If you disagree, you are wrong, just give up now and save yourself the embarrassement.

[XFemShepX]

Here's the thing--

I'm an avid RPG fan, and I didn't mind this DLC--but ONLY because of the context it's put it.  It's a shooter because you're *escaping* from an enemy stronghold.  Imagine that.

I DO sympathize, because I agree with you about the direction Bioware has been going lately.  I don't know if it's because of the EA buyout, or because the company as a whole has just decided that it'd be more cost efficient and easier to just make shooters instead of investing in the time and resources that RPGs require.  I'm not sure, but their games are definitely changing.

I'd like to say that this will affect whether or not I play ME3, but it won't.  DA2 was so god-AWFUL that I've decided not to pre-order ME3, but I will eventually play it.  This is because I love the Mass Effect universe, no matter how much I might feel like it's being mangled.

However, what I *will* say is that this new direction will affect whether or not I purchase new Bioware franchise games in the future, once they're done with ME and DA.  I will read reviews and look on these boards for fan feedback before I bother to invest my time and money.

This DLC has kind of left me feeling like ME2 was a total waste of time and resources, because there's not much connection with that story.  It was like a detour, an aside to the real story. 

Also, I can't help but feel like this is because Drew's not involved anymore.

[Winterfly]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Winterfly wrote...

Maybe Bioware need to learn to stop talking. They do a Lionhead Studios more or less.

Like with Dragon Age, proclaiming its Baldurs Gate spiritual successor then they screw everyone that is a fan fo the old days over by blurting out something like "Oh yeah...Dragon Age 1 was too deep and complicated....people wanted more action urrhmmm yeah!" and Dragon Age 2, might be fun but its a mockery and bit of a heresy to do so to a game that is spiritually "Baldurs Gate 4" if you should take them serious in their "spirutual successor" proclamation...a mockery in the face to all old days fans.

Bioware need to stop saying stuff like this and we all know, EA is probably not to blame but Microsoft who turned them towards more action oriented RPG for their console.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't BioWare say that Dragon Age: Origins was the spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate and then turned around and said that Dragon Age 2 is not going to be Dragon Age: Origins 2? Correct me if I am wrong Winterfly, but I believe that is some of the stuff I remember reading from the IGN articles long ago. If that is the case, I don't particularly see where they went in the wrong there with that particular thing. I think a lot of people made the mistake of expecting Origins 2 even though BioWare clearly said that was not what DA2 was going to be.

I don't want to dive too much into Dragon Age 2 for two reasons though. For one, the teams that work on Dragon Age and Mass Effect are not the same teams. They are all under the same company, but they are not the same teams. For another, this is the Mass Effect forum and I don't want to dive too much into the mistakes that BioWare made with Dragon Age 2. In my opinion, attacking Mass Effect 3 because Dragon Age 2 wasn't the success that BioWare wanted is the same as attacking the Ladie's Basketball team for -insert random university- because their Men's Basketball team had lost the play-offs.

I am of the opinion that if you want to question whether or not Mass Effect 3 is "doomed", we should be looking at what the Mass Effect team has done and not at what the Dragon Age team has done. Plenty of people have real concerns, much as the OP does about Mass Effect, and I think it would be best to keep the topic discussing the promises of the Mass Effect team and not the Dragon Age team.

Someone in EA and Bioware approved it. You cannot just change direction like that. Say one thing then change it. 

Mass Effect is turning towards more action oriented.

Whatever people say, first game had better RP focus and much more exploration in the Citadel for example. Was fun. Mass Effect 2 was fun although but more of Talk with the gun ****es. 

[Winterfly]

Il Divo wrote...

Winterfly wrote...
And you played Baldurs Gate? Dragon Age is not even close to Baldurs Gate. The infinty engine in my opinion still holds it against todays games. Dragon Age was a good game but I just wanted to rush it through to see the whole story.

I did indeed. It's hard to describe my feelings towards Bioware's earlier games (BG and NWN). I acknowledge their importance in setting up Bioware's later titles, but I wasn't a fan of their gameplay mechanics due to lack of originality. I play DnD every week, so dealing with the same 2.0/3.0 mechanics that I always have was rather dull. For this reason, I actually applauded DA:O for being Bioware's most complicated and original gameplay system.

But what exactly is your point? I was addressing your comment that you need to play the Wii to experience old school games like Baldur's Gate. DA:O, the spiritual successor made by the same developers. DA:O was not released for the Wii, so I assume you have some other title in mind.

I am more speaking of that the Xbob and the PS3 is so FLASHY and AWESOME and masculine consoles. They are the cool games, the harsh bad ass bloody games. So every  god damn game released to them need to be a bloody feast gore with manly men screwing over half the women on the ship. I remember when relationships in Baldurs gate took time, if you slept with one of them too early she would regret it and hate you more or less. These days? I spoke to Ashley twice, then she came into my Shepards room and had sex with him. Wow, if it been that easy in IRL but then Shepard has a stronge indoctrination then the Reapers 


I just have a feeling that someone complained a lot on ME1 and ME2 was turned into a more battle focusing game with "levels and chapters" which makes it feel bit more of a linear railroad then the first game. It isn't but there is not much options for you, also the whole Collector Base is not as heartmoving as the Council and Destiny Ascenion. Either way you just ask TIM to go **** himself more or less. I would have wanted to stay as a loyal member of Cerberus on my Ren-Sentinel. But no. 

The game is awesome, mind you. I will buy Mass Effect 3 but I find it lacking, ME2 is better gaming mechanics but flawed on the "RPG part" while ME1 has more options and a better roleplay over all while its mechanic is flawed. 


Lets say, the mechanics = the engine ,the battles, inventory and such
Then let us call the RP part the technical part  or whatever, the talking ,the choice, the surrounding, the exploring, the nonlinear move on, dramatical events. 

[Deanooo]

More complaints...urghh

I enjoyed the dlc myself, yeah i agree it was a little less role play, but all shooter?

No way.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Alpha Protocol is the worst example of how to make a shooter/RPG hybrid.
But it's a good game.

Not really.

Modifié par Mesina2, 31 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[AlanC9]

Sea Dragon wrote...

Also want to add that more people are getting degrees... but in things like Fictional film studies... Media studies... PLEASE. A degree is a 3-4 year in depth study of a complicated and highly theoretical subject. I mean there are people out their who are apparently have as good a CV as I do... 1st in Physics = 1st in Fictional Film studies... What a load of bull****. That might seem rude but the reality is that these degree's often require less than 20 hours solid work a week to pass to a high grade whereas something like a traditional science, or maths, or English can end up requiring 50+ hours a week.
At the end of it the other person gets to run round saying they got a 1st in a degree... except it won't carry the weight of a traditional (read that as proper) degree when it comes to employment.

So.... what's the problem? You know the degrees aren't the same, he knows they aren't the same, and any prospective employer will know they aren't the same.

[AlanC9]

Winterfly wrote...
 It isn't but there is not much options for you, also the whole Collector Base is not as heartmoving as the Council and Destiny Ascenion. Either way you just ask TIM to go **** himself more or less. I would have wanted to stay as a loyal member of Cerberus on my Ren-Sentinel. But no.

I'm a little confused by this.

First, how was saving the Destiny Ascencion heartmoving? It's a valuable ship, but you might lose other valuable ships trying to save it. As for those three idiots on board.... meh.

As for the Collector Base, what are you talking about? I did exactly what TIM wanted in all playthroughs. Unless all of ME2 is one big Xanatos Gambit, it's the smart thing to do.

[ODST 3]

I strongly recommend a boycott of this horrible DLC. If only I could take back my purchase, I would.

[Lunatic LK47]

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Alpha Protocol is the worst example of how to make a shooter/RPG hybrid.
But it's a good game.

Not really.

Uh, let's see the problems with Alpha Protocol

- Aiming system is very counter-intuitive (i.e. The five seconds that it takes to achieve a critical hit= Half of your Endurance Meter gone)

- Abilities had no iota of thought into it (i.e. Assault Rifle's special ability is sub-par auto-aiming? Chainshot's gamma yellow makes aiming a **** because the crosshair is orange. Bosses still block me regardless of having maxed out my martial arts skills)

- Your playstyle is only valid for 1/3rd of the game while the other 2/3rds actively screw you over (i.e. Mandatory combat and boss fights screw over stealth and gadget players).

Experimentation is discouraged just because you get screwed over with certain parts of the game (i.e. Marburg's Villa screws you over on Hard Mode unless you bothered investing in martial arts)

****-ton of glitches.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Here's a quote from an article that just recently came out, regarding Skyrim.


IGN: I know you probably get this question a lot but we have to ask, is there any plan to include multiplayer features or co-operative play in Skyrim, or will The Elder Scrolls continue to be a single-player only franchise?

Todd Howard: The two most requested features we get are dragons and multiplayer. We got one of them this time! We always look into multiplayer, put lots of ideas on the whiteboard, and it always loses. It's not that we don't like it. I can think of ways it would be a lot of fun, but at the end of the day, that dev time is going to take away from doing the best single player game we can, and that's where our hearts are.

Now that is a company who focuses on it's strengths rather than conforming to another market simply because that's where the larger consumer base resides. This is what Bioware should have done. Bungie was the first in my most respected developer list. Then they got too cocky. Next was epic games, and then they committed an act that I will not discuss publicly. Right after them was Bioware. Now Bioware's forsaking their original fanbase and jumping ship for the shooter crowd. Now there's bethesda, and based on this comment above they're resolve is unquestionable. This is what I would have expected from Bioware.

-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 31 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

shnizzler93 wrote...

James2912 wrote...

games are getting dumber and dumber at least the blockbuster titles. because society seems to be getting dumber and dumber.  

http://news.yahoo.co...-skys-the-limit

yeah, ok.

last year two 12 year old African Americans from the inner city became National Chess Masters (that's a rating of 2200+). One of them at one point, was the #1 12-year-old in the U.S. and the #4 12- year-old in the World. The other is  the reigning 7th grade national champion. At this point, they are both ahead of Bobby Fisher who made his meteoric ratings push after age 13 in 1957.

http://www.google.co...lient=firefox-a

http://www.google.co...e8db2aaf182a2f2

[CptAwesomePhD]

Thompson family wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Says the person who regards ME2 as pure gold. Just because some people don't have the mental capacity or patience to handle a highly detailed inventory system  ...

Needlepoint embroidery takes more mental capacity and patience than the ME1 inventory system. A lack of desire to lose oneself in such trifles is no sign of lacking either mental capacity or patience.

I've said it before and say it again now: What really ticks RPG elitists off is that somebody, anybody can go through one playthrough of ME2 and have a Shep who's just as powerful and just as well equipped as their carefully crafted creations, honed by such gimmicks as going through multiple playthroughs to level up persuasion and intimidation abilities by being made a Spectre multiple times rather than spending any points..

Mass Effect is and should be a story-driven game in which your character is trying to save all intelligent life in the galaxy, not some digitalized version of hand-painting and dressing up porcelain dolls.

This. This post.

Look at it.

It's beautiful.

[Il Divo]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Now that is a company who focuses on it's strengths rather than conforming to another market simply because that's where the larger consumer base resides. This is what Bioware should have done. Bungie was the first in my most respected developer list. Then they got too cocky. Next was epic games, and then they committed an act that I will not discuss publicly. Right after them was Bioware. Now Bioware's forsaking their original fanbase and jumping ship for the shooter crowd. Now there's bethesda, and based on this comment above they're resolve is unquestionable. This is what I would have expected from Bioware.

-Polite

Apparently you didn't play Oblivion. Or visit the forums after release. You heard all the same melodrama that you do on these boards.

I've also been a Bioware fan since Kotor, played every subsequent game, then went back and played the originals. I hardly consider Bioware to have 'forsaken' me.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 mars 2011 - 11:45 .

[InvaderErl]

That^^^

[UKStory135]

Thompson Family just won the internet!

[CptAwesomePhD]

Not to mention all the whining from the Fallout fans when Bethesda picked up the franchise, turned it into a first-person action rpg and was therefore the devil.

Bottom line is, certain video game players just can't accept games for what they are. They will always judge them by "what they should have been", if they'd had anything to say about it. Meanwhile, they are still perfectly good games to anyone that doesn't judge them by the standards of some imaginary immaculate ubergame they'd totally make if only they had the skills and manpower.