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Opposed to DLC? Here is some food for thought


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#1
metal_dawn

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Take the time to read this. It may cause you to reconsider some of your views on DLC and a publishers efforts to push them. 

http://www.gamerswit....com/node/47828

Specifically uses Dragon Age several times as an example. What follows is an excerpt. 

I honestly have a genuine fear about what the next 3 or 4 years might bring in the gaming marketplace. Even if there is not dire writing on the wall some troubling graffiti has turned up portending dark days ahead. The industry has been in a struggle for nearly a decade to monetize their transactions outside of the initial purchase, and instead of making progress the rise of the used market, an unreliable consumer base and the omni-present piracy revenue suck have just made things worse.

So, when Bioware and EA put so many resources into developing a hardcore gamers-game like Dragon Age, and people light pitchforks on fire because of optional DLC, I can’t help but feel intensely frustrated at what I see as thin-skinned entitlement and monumental naivete.

I consider many in the angry mob to be friends, and it does not give me pleasure to stand against them. But, I firmly believe that if you want to keep getting games like Dragon Age, like Fallout 3, likeUncharted 2, like The Beatles: Rock Band then gamers are going to need to get on board with or at least stop openly revolting against things like Day-1 DLC.

I have been watching with trepidation and concern the past 2 years as a conflict of game publishing ideology has erupted between the once mighty Electronic Arts and the laser-focused, unrepentant capitalism of Activision. And, as EA sheds hundreds of jobs, and more importantly dozens of projects, my worst fears are come true. The focus on scatter-shot approaches to new IPs and emphasis on driving quality over quantity is great for warming ****les in hearts, but ejaculating dozens of crappy iterations of go-to franchises has tragically triumphed as the profitable way to go.


Modifié par metal_dawn, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:26 .


#2
Terwox_

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*shrug* Some people just like to complain.

#3
HighlandBerserkr

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I love DLC makes my game purchases more worth while in my opinion, makes them more re playable, but i seriously doubt the video game industry is hurting all that much.

#4
LyonVanguard

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Frankly, I think without DLC, games would cost allot more than they do.

Gamers complain about the price and yet they want their games to look like freaking works of arts as far as graphics. That sort of polish is extremely expensive to developers.

Frankly, I don't mind paying for extra stuff as long as the game is not intentionally cut (TR:U anyone?) for the sake of making DLC. DA:O is a huge game and I don't think I would miss anything if there was no DLC.

#5
casw265

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I bought the DLC "Warden's Keep" (PC version) because I loved Dragon Age so much and felt they were deserving of a few extra dollars. I also don't mind paying the same price as our console brethren ($60) if that would make it more attractive to make games for the PC.



In short, if developers/publishers need a few more dollars to keep making good games on the PC, I'm ok with it.

#6
metal_dawn

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casw265 wrote...

I bought the DLC "Warden's Keep" (PC version) because I loved Dragon Age so much and felt they were deserving of a few extra dollars. I also don't mind paying the same price as our console brethren ($60) if that would make it more attractive to make games for the PC.

In short, if developers/publishers need a few more dollars to keep making good games on the PC, I'm ok with it.


Not only that, but for a nominal cost you got a couple extra hours of enjoyment out of a product you already knew you love. 

#7
SeanMurphy2

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I have a selfish attitude towards this issue

 I hope they sell a lot of DLC over the next two years. I want DA:O to make as much money as possible to increase the chance of a sequel and to strengthen Bioware's future within EA. 

The social site and DLC aspect of DA:O is fortunate timing. EA seems to be focusing more on social games and digital content delivery. DA:O loosely fits in with that trend so they may look more favourably on the franchise than if it was a standalone singleplayer game.

It is quite scary to hear the news about EA sacking staff and closing down studios.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:50 .


#8
Terwox_

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metal_dawn wrote...

casw265 wrote...

I bought the DLC "Warden's Keep" (PC version) because I loved Dragon Age so much and felt they were deserving of a few extra dollars. I also don't mind paying the same price as our console brethren ($60) if that would make it more attractive to make games for the PC.

In short, if developers/publishers need a few more dollars to keep making good games on the PC, I'm ok with it.


Not only that, but for a nominal cost you got a couple extra hours of enjoyment out of a product you already knew you love. 


Sadly, Warden's Keep is more or less 1 hour  and nothing more. Had they made it 2-3 times as much content for it I'd be happier. But I still love the DLC's for this game and DLC's as a concept.

#9
ArcanistLibram

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I don't hate DLC. I prefer full expansions, but I'll take what I can get.

What I don't like is DLC that's not worth the price. Shale's worth the full $15, but Warden's Keep is obviously incomplete, both because of its missed potential and because it's obvious that Bioware will put up an Avernus DLC to finish his research storyline at some point in the future.

#10
Minchandre

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Honestly, I don't have anything against DLC in principle - there's just a couple things about how it's implemented that annoy me:

1. The in-game NPCs are kinda annoying; it's not hard to ignore the Warden's Keep guy, of course, but that "!" always gets me.

2. Thankfully not the case here, but some companies will use DLC to add things that should have been in the game in the first place. While obviously this is sometimes a matter of timing (games notoriously are rushed out the door, of course), there are a few examples that seem like obvious exploitation to me

3. DLC tends to distract from the idea of a proper expansion pack (though I'll admit that idea seems not to exist at all on consoles). Now, sometimes DLC is a reasonably proper expansion pack (e.g. Fallout 3 Broken Steel), and taking a group of DLCs together and selling them for a discount (many games after a couple years) is an okay substitute...but I doubt we'll ever see DLC like Mask of the Betrayer, which added 20 hours of rich, well-written and immersive gameplay that was, frankly, way better than the original campaign. While I imagine that, once they've had some time, Bioware will start making some DLCs that are the same, with a good plot and excellent writing, and story-driven rather than action or whatever, but these will still be short stories rather than novellas.

#11
DLC On The Disc

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I'm not opposed to DLC. I am opposed to bad DLC like Warden's Keep, and strongly opposed to in-game advertisements for DLC.


#12
DLC On The Disc

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2. Thankfully not the case here, but some companies will use DLC to add things that should have been in the game in the first place. While obviously this is sometimes a matter of timing (games notoriously are rushed out the door, of course), there are a few examples that seem like obvious exploitation to me
.


You know they removed the storage chest from your party camp and then added it to Warden's Keep, right?

Of course, they're claiming that was for plot purposes. I'm still trying to figure out why my party camp is a safe enough place for merchants and emissaries from my allies, but not for a chest with my surplus goods, especially when my extra party members are just chilling there to protect it.

#13
Godzilla vs Xenu

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I pretty much agree with that perspective. Games that offer such depth and scope as DAO are comparatively rare these days - the gaming industry has become more like Hollywood, which I guess was inevitable - the lure of blockbuster level profits breeds the mindset. It's gotten so bad that a site like gametrailers openly said that the length of DAO's content was ... "absurd in this day and age." I don't even know what that is supposed to mean - that we all have short attention spans? It reminded me of when the head of Disney said, at the time the sequel to Fantasia was released, that attention spans had changed so much since the original that they felt they had to edit one of the classical scores to make it much shorter than the original composition because people would no longer have the patience to sit through it. I find this kind of thinking to be positively ghastly and an enemy of creative expression. If gaming companies begin to feel that the investment in truly epic and lengthy games like DAO isn't worth it, I shudder to think of a future where games are only thought of as throw away entertainment. If DLC is a way for the few companies that make these games to be able to keep making them, I am glad to pay for it.

#14
marlowwe

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casw265 wrote...
In short, if developers/publishers need a few more dollars to keep making good games on the PC, I'm ok with it.


If developers need "a few more dollars to keep making good games on the PC" then they need a new business model. Players should not have to subsidize incompetent game developers.

There was a good reply to the author's article which I think wasn't strong enough but explains the position all gamers should be taking with regards to DLC:

Very interesting article Elysium. Before I start here, I
think you already know that I have quite a bit of respect for you both
personally and for your insights into the industry. And you have made a lot of
valid points in your article which I agree with. There is no doubt that this
industry is in major trouble and is going to have to have a paradigm shift or
risk melting down. I've been saying since last generation that the industry is
heading for another 1984 style crash and was largely laughed at in other
places. That said, I really take issue with the attitude you present to
customers demanding value for money.

I do not believe supporting day one DLC that is sold to me
by in game characters is necessary to fund the next Mirror's Edge. I do not
believe having ire towards paying $10 more for a PC version of MW2 that lacks
the multiplayer functionality that is integral to the PC experience is an
entitlement attitude. I do not believe consumers are to blame for the industry
failing because it's the industry that's failing. My company is struggling to
find customer growth right now and frankly, is teetering dangerously on the
brink. I'm not 100% sure who the fault lies with but it isn't my customers.

I've seen an alarming propagation of the point of view that
somehow consumers owe the industry something, almost like we work for them
rather than the other way around. No, we are the ones paying them, they are the
ones who are supposed to provide the product that we want. If some modern games
have unrealistically high budgets that require additional optional content (and
I have bought lots of DLC) or a million plus sales to make something
profitable, then it wasn't budgeted or planned properly and that's the
publisher's fault, not ours. The industry is so caught up in this arms race for
technical fidelity that they don't care if they cut off their own limbs to win
it. Yes, we as gamers are dazzled by the visuals in Uncharted 2 but are gamers
demanding that every game look this good or is the industry demanding that of
itself? Outside the gaming press, I never see people complaining that a sequel
to a game doesn't look substantially better than a previous installment.

Do you see the "thin-skinned entitlement and monumental
naivete" crowd complaining about Torchlight? Sure, some people wish it had
multiplayer but most are very happy with it and I haven't heard one podcast or
read one post where anyone said they refused to buy it because it lacked
multiplayer and that Runic Games owed them that. In the case of MW2, people
were mad because IW stripped everything from the game (dedicated servers, lean,
banning, mods) that made the previous games so great on the PC. You truly
believe the people who supported the previous games don't have a right to be
upset about that, especially when being charged a premium for it? Yes, there
are people out there who will never be happy and even worse, the people who
will steal games because they didn't get what they wanted. But those people
exist everywhere and I think it is very unfair of you to throw those of us who
feel we have well reasoned and logical arguments in with those people simply
because we don't like paying more for less in order to support a failing
business model.

I equate this to a far less extreme version of what the RIAA
and MPAA are doing. Obviously, this industry isn't going out and suing people
for stealing their games. However, the comparison can be made that they are
continuing to cling to a business model that isn't working and while some are
theoretically trying to evolve it (see EA and Playfish or Ubisoft getting into
animation), they are shifting responsibility to consumers to keep their current
model sustainable rather than adapt and change. As a consumer, your only
responsibility it to demand value for money and to support the products and
services you believe in. That's subjective of course and if you believe in
buying stuff like Warden's Keep or MW2 on PC, you absolutely should. But it's
pretty snarky to fault me for not doing so and saying why. I take issue with
being lumped in as someone with an entitlement attitude because I'm being asked
to either pay more for less or pay and then pay again because the industry is
spending itself into a death spiral and refuses to break out of it because
they're terrified of change. It isn't our job to solve the industry's problems,
people like Riccitiello and Kotick get paid millions of dollars a year to
figure this out. If they can't, then they should be replaced.



I can tell you right now, if the industry ever ends up in
the place you theorize, that will be the time I stop playing games.

P.S. Despite being almost broke, I have bought Brutal
Legend, Borderlands, Ratchet & Clank Future: A Crack In Time, Uncharted 2,
Torchlight, Dragon Age, Ballad of Gay Tony (DLC), Forza 3, DiRT 2, have
pre-ordered Assassin's Creed 2 and once I can sell a couple of games I want to
shed, will probably buy Modern Warfare 2 on 360. This is just since September
and isn't counting the tons of other games I've rented in recent months. I
bought these titles because I believed in them and I wanted to support the
developers. I've done my part and then some.


PS: This is a very poorly built forum.

Modifié par marlowwe, 18 novembre 2009 - 05:03 .


#15
marshalleck

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"thin-skinned entitlement and monumental naivete."



Pretty much sums up a lot of what happens today, and not just in gaming.

#16
screwoffreg

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 I don't mind paying for HIGH quality DLC that is appropriately priced.  I won't pay $7 for horse armor (Oblivion LOL) but if there are some decent story related side quests or even a full blown expansion I won't hesitate to buy it.  

#17
HighlandBerserkr

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Screw EA, Bioware should partner with Square Enix:P

#18
SheffSteel

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social.bioware.com/9460/blog/808/

I hate the ingame salesman. I am aware that Warden's Keep is of debatable value for money. I'm also sick of the uninformed or polemical opposition to DLC that I've seen on these forums.

#19
AshedMan

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I fully support DLC and even Day 1 - DLC, however, I cannot support $7-$15 prices for one hour of content.



If the DLC they release is akin to the Deep Roads experience or the Circle of Magi (content that was broad, deep, and took some time to complete) then I would be a happy camper purchasing all of it. Look at Fallout 3's DLC. They had similar pricing but at least offered 3-6 hours of play.



Charging $7 for Warden's Keep and $15 for Stone Prisoner is pure greediness coming from EA. I cannot and will not support anymore of that.

#20
MrGOH

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DLC is here to stay - WK made $1 million in the span of a week. I plan to only buy quality DLC rather than stupid knick-knacks, like bling for my Xbox Live profile.

#21
ItsToofy

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Why hasnt anyone, through out the course of history, ever complained about putting money in the collection plate at church? or how about paying a little bit more for something at a super market because they didnt have their "card", or how about why the gas station down the street is 2 cents less than the one you are currently at? or maybe we should start complaining that we are paying for 1000 minutes/month for our cellphones and don't use all the minutes but still pay for all those minutes? (unless you're cingular)(just as an example, don't start spouting out cell phone plans to me cause I frankly don't give a damn)



These may not be perfect examples but it goes to show how the gaming community has slipped by the corporate fist for so long, and now that the hammer has dropped because of piracy concerns, everyone feels like they are entitled to "everything" for "nothing" just because that was the status quo in previous eras of gaming.



Btw, DLC has been around since the early 90's, they were called expansion packs, or have we forgotten where we came from?

#22
Dauphin2

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Good article. I really don't think people who oppose DLC represent a majority of people.

I have bought a lot of games that I loved, and bought their sequel later, only to find the sequel didn't really live up to the 30-40 dollars I paid for it. I think a 5-7 dollar module make a lot more sense for both the consumer, and the developer.

And should we forget the sequels that never came? I'm still waiting for the next installment of Sin: Episodes... (for those not familiar http://en.wikipedia....ki/SiN_Episodes )

Here's hoping DA has a long and fruitful life.

Modifié par Dauphin2, 18 novembre 2009 - 04:43 .


#23
marlowwe

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Btw, DLC has been around since the early 90's, they were called expansion packs, or have we forgotten where we came from?


I don't think anyone is against expansion packs. I fully support meaty expansion packs instead of ****ty $7 DLC.

#24
KalDurenik

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They said 4-6 hours people are completing it in 20min... I would pref expansions but then again...

If they can release 15 20-60min content patches for 7$ each they will have made alot more money then they would do for a expansion (and the expansion would also cost more to develop).



If they are going to continue to release 20-60min DLC they should drop the price down to 2-4$ each instead... Call me a greedy a-hole if you so wish. But thats my opinion. After mass effect DLC i can honestly say that im very unsure if i can trust Bioware to do it correct... Oh wait they hire another company for it and if the DLC get bad they will just blame them...

#25
addiction21

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Companies asking you to pay for a product is bad... or did you all not get the memo?