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Opposed to DLC? Here is some food for thought


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#201
LSDS

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Arsaidh wrote...

Heh heh. Yeah. Remember the smashing success of the Left 4 Dead 2 boycott? Remember how all the nerd-raging on YouTube and Facebook convinced Valve to cancel L4D2 and instead release all the content, with its upgraded AI, plus all-new voice acting and art assets, as a free expansion for the first L4D? And then Fox retroactively un-cancelled Firefly and gave us six more seasons of awesome all at once, including that awesome Mal/Jayne sex scene all of us* have been fantasizing about? And remember how there was finally world peace, and everybody got a pony and an ice cream cake?

* Well, some of us. A few of us, anyway. Okay, basically just me. (>_<)


shiny! :happy:

#202
Akka le Vil

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Zem_ wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...

Are you THAT dense ?
Because if others like it, it means that it'll be profitable, and if it's profitable to make crap and sell it high... what will become of the good quality product at a decent price ?


If it's profitable then it is, by definition, a "decent price".  Not for you, perhaps, but you can't please everyone now, can you?

So in other words, the easily-pleased idiots that created a market for the 6-hours-long games will have ruined yet again the market.
MW2 didn't spring out of nothing.

It's pathetic (and fun in a very twisted way) to see the dumb fanboys of a game working actively to ruin the chance of having another game like it.
Because the more 5$-for-one-hour-content DLC sell, the less large and good game like DAO will be created.

#203
slikster

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Akka le Vil wrote...
Because if others like it, it means that it'll be profitable, and if it's profitable to make crap and sell it high... what will become of the good quality product at a decent price ?


So, vanilla DA is not good quality  at a decent price then.  Ok, got it.  I think that I can force that through my thick skull.

#204
KalDurenik

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Well you know this is how the feature of gaming is going to be... sadly i can't say i like it i will whine about it most likely for a long time. But i will try to make suggestions atleast to make it better for the customer.

#205
Akka le Vil

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slikster wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...
Because if others like it, it means that it'll be profitable, and if it's profitable to make crap and sell it high... what will become of the good quality product at a decent price ?


So, vanilla DA is not good quality  at a decent price then.  Ok, got it.  I think that I can force that through my thick skull.

/facepalm

Nothing too surprising though. Idiocy would not express itself ONLY in buying bad-quality DLC. Understanding a general context and meaning is probably going to require far too much grey matter than available to some.

I mean, it's not like if he needed only to look at the post directly above him to have an answer.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 19 novembre 2009 - 11:30 .


#206
Waldimekum

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ItsToofy wrote...
Btw, DLC has been around since the early 90's, they were called expansion packs, or have we forgotten where we came from?


You mean Throne of Baal (with many hours of additional gameplay, many new quests, items, etc.) is comparable to Warden's Keep?

:blink:

#207
slikster

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Akka le Vil wrote...

slikster wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...
Because if others like it, it means that it'll be profitable, and if it's profitable to make crap and sell it high... what will become of the good quality product at a decent price ?


So, vanilla DA is not good quality  at a decent price then.  Ok, got it.  I think that I can force that through my thick skull.

/facepalm

Nothing too surprising though. Idiocy would not express itself ONLY in buying bad-quality DLC. Understanding a general context and meaning is probably going to require far too much grey matter than available to some.

I mean, it's not like if he needed only to look at the post directly above him to have an answer.


What you don't seem to get is that you don't have to buy it if you don't think it's good quality.  You don't have to buy ANY DLC.  If you buy something you don't think was worth it, it was your own fault for not researching your purchace.
In fact, you never have to buy anything from Bioware/EA ever again!  And you can still play new, free content via mods on the PC.  Ergo, you have nothing to complain about.
And if you're playing on a console, well, I don't know what to say. DLC has been the way of things since the newest generation of consoles came out.  That's 4+ years to digest the way things are and will continue to be.

#208
marlowwe

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What you don't seem to get is that you don't have to buy it if you don't think it's good quality. You don't have to buy ANY DLC. If you buy something you don't think was worth it, it was your own fault for not researching your purchace.
In fact, you never have to buy anything from Bioware/EA ever again! And you can still play new,


I don't see how this is relevant. Of course if you don't like something you won't buy it. That's a given. However that is not what this discussion is about. We're going a bit deeper than simply "not buying it" and want to persuade Bioware not to adopt a paid DLC distribution model. Instead we want them to adopt either the historically proven expansion pack model or think of something new that benefits the players and not the coffers of the suits.

Modifié par marlowwe, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:10 .


#209
slikster

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marlowwe wrote...
I don't see how this is relevant. Of course if you don't like something you won't buy it. That's a given. However that is not what this discussion is about. We're going a bit deeper than simply "not buying it" and want to persuade Bioware not to adopt a paid DLC distribution model. Instead we want them to adopt either the historically proven expansion pack model or think of something new that benefits the players and not the coffers of the suits.


Who do you think approves of the new expansions you covet?  Here's a hint, you mention them in your post.  Economic realities will dictate what happens with this franchise, whether or not your fatasies tell you otherwise.

I, and others like me will contribute to making your dreams come true, and you can just sit back and wait.  There may even be enough of us to warrent you getting a "proper" expansion in the future.  Whether or not you like it, the suits will use DLC sales to gauge interest and contribute to cost-volume-profit analysis of an expansion.  With coffers empty, resources become tight, and projects not worth it to the company get cancelled.  Welcome to the real world.  So, you see, you and your ilk still have nothing to complain about, if enough of us "sheeple" make it happen for you.

#210
marlowwe

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slikster wrote...

Economic realities will dictate what happens with this franchise, whether or not your fatasies tell you otherwise.


I strongly doubt "economic realities" had any major impact in bringing forth the DLC model we have today. This kind of model has been available long before the economic crisis. In any event if the company is having financial difficulties it shouldn't be passing costs over to the consumer - it should follow a better business model or restructure itself where DLC does not make up the majority of after-release revenue. That's why we're here and that's what we want to chage because THAT is what is going to guarantee a better game for everyone.

I, and others like me will contribute to making your dreams come true, and you can just sit back and wait.  There may even be enough of us to warrent you getting a "proper" expansion in the future.  Whether or not you like it, the suits will use DLC sales to gauge interest and contribute to cost-volume-profit analysis of an expansion.  With coffers empty, resources become tight, and projects not worth it to the company get cancelled.  Welcome to the real world.  So, you see, you and your ilk still have nothing to complain about, if enough of us "sheeple" make it happen for you.


The only thing you'll contribute to is more paid DLC. If whoever is in charge of future projects sees that DLC will net a better profit than expansion packs at the expense of worse gamplay...they're going to go with DLC since people like you will buy it willingly. On the contrary, we have quite a lot of complaining left in us and we will continue to do so whether YOU like it or not.

Modifié par marlowwe, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:11 .


#211
CaptBurn

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Without DLC there wouldn't be any expansions.

This was why expansions died and the MMO formula took over for the RPG genre...  After a title being on the shelves a year, guess what, no one was playing it anymore!  They moved on.  Expansion sales could not sustain a profit to development ratio (and anyone thinking any decent developer is making less than $75/hr is probably nuts or a bad developer...  good devs are expensive and every game company wants the best).

DLC can be produced in much smaller time windows and allows a franchise to maintain a revenue stream that funds either future 'larger' expansions or a full blown sequel.  In these modern times, I'm pretty sure you will be most likely to see a sequel in a two year time frame full of DLC than an expansion because, frankly, tech is changing too fast to just add on to an existing engine after it's been in the wind for a year.

Do I agree with the cost of DLC (particularly the small kind like WK, let's say, because there are some really good long dlc's out there comparable to strong expansions...  Fallout 3 Broken Steel?)?  Not always.  I do think $5 is a little steep for something rumored to be a one hour content bonus which in reality means 10-20minutes probably (all rumors and probably not true as it is a little... odd... that it would be that simple and short).  That should be a .99 add on, in my opinion.  Same for the generic weapon/armor/whatever model upgrades and adds.  Something like Shale is probably $5-10 fairly.  But, it's business and they can get more so they do... They have to by law really.  It's that magical spot on the supply vs. demand chart where the two lines meet... That's maximum price and that is the simple thing they are using to decide this stuff. 

You can't compare the price to anything historically without considering the present value of money and the time to cost ROI.  Looking back at the $30 the two NWN expansions each ran, that's probably closer to over $45 in today's dollars (that 3-4% per year really does add up!).  The $5 D&D mods... Well, you get the picture.  That's nine DLC's at $5 each and I'm sure much of the DLC for DA:O will be longer than an hour.  It could very well add up to 20-30 hours of content for $45.  ->  We just don't know at this point. <-

The bonus is simple.  Having DLC monthly or better keeps the game fresh and creates much better longetivity for the title.  It trickles in little nuggets of love to keep people playing it over that year it used to take to do expansions instead of having them uninstall and hesitant to fire it up again.  I'm not a patient person...  I did get NWN's expansion; however, it was more because of the toolset and the ability to create persistent worlds.  It was basically a freakin' MMO!  So many different places to go play and socialize.  I found a great 'world' that was fun and had good people and good DM's (I ended up being one of them) that ran a lot of great campaigns and constantly expanded things.  It stayed fresh and popular.  That's the only reason I made it until expansion time... If not for that aspect, no way I would have still been around.  Only an MMO can do expansions like that anymore for that reason (no online persistent worlds with this DA:O toolset sadly).

Get as angry about it as you want but you are just contributing to early onset of all kinds of stress/anxiety related illnesses.  Nothing can be done to change that supply and demand ratio unless you can successfully rally the _millions_ of troops to suddenly change their buying preferences.  Better to just live within your means and your preferences and be happy with that (I agree it can be quite frustrating when you really love something as much as many seem to love DA:O and want a lot more but just can't have it).

Just remember...  These gaming companies aren't evil.  They have egos too!  They want to look and play the best.  No one wants to put out crap (it just turns out that way sometimes... look at MW2... wow.. what a step backward for such a good franchise!  SP campaign is only 4.5hours!!!!  Dated and played out graphics and shooter styles!?  WTH is up with that right?  Still cost full price for what should have been a $29.99 downloadable title on PSN or LIVE, in my opinion).  Some companies are better at expressing this than others, i.e. Naughty Dog and how they have handled media and how they manage their office/studios (the results speak for themselves in Uncharted2, which by the way, EVERYONE should play if you are a console person as it is probably the best developed game this generation at the very least).  I've digressed...  But, my point is the same.  Companies want to provide the best they can.  It's not natural for them to want to 'screw over everyone' because they ARE everyone.  They are consumers also.  They are simply trying to find a way to maintain the viability of their business (and, yes, maybe the video games business model is way overdue for a work over; however, it ain't happened yet so until it does, which will probably take some big towers like EA/Ubi/Acti falling first, we are stuck with it).

The used games market is a serious problem (to just keep going while I'm typing because I love how we can all just blurt out our opinions to the world on the internets).  It's not fair to say how DLC is bad and should go away then turn around and compare it to the used car market.  Ford makes money on used car sales... They make A LOT of money still.  Why?  Because those cars need parts.  They need labor that only dealers (thanks to overpriced proprietory computers and machines and tools) can provide.  Ford makes money on every car it sells until the day it is melted down for scrap metal (and then they probably still make money because the recycled metal costs them less than mining new steel!).  Once a game hits the used market it's monetary income dies.  Gone.  Poof.  DLC is the 'parts' to keep that money chain moving with used market shoppers.  It's the maintenance plan.  I agree used DVD's are very similar to games; however, if you look at where DVD is going (particularly on Bluray) with internet enabling and bonus content, etc., it's the same thing the video game industry is doing.  They are trying to create more content to sell (never mind movies already make money from royalties in other sources no matter what forever...  too bad video games don't have showtime and hbo huh?).

Bottomline, DLC is here to stay, like it or not.  The little bites of sometimes goodness are there to keep us nibbling on the fruits of developer labor.  And, it works (for many anyway).  It keeps us in the buying chain for a bit longer and when we leave it there is a little bit of love from those who buy our game used.  Because of it's medium video games simply can not be compared to other products (cars and dvd's, in this example).  They do not have the other revenue streams those products enjoy.  They have to be creative to finance these games today (it costs WAY more to make them).  At $49.99-$59.99 (more for collector's) it's a steal compared to the old $30 Atari games (about $80-100 in today's money!)...  Yet, we get SO MUCH MORE.  And, that is because of the creative geniuses at these development houses finding creative ways to help us help them keep making awesome games.  

In the meantime, let's hope the toolset yields some strong results in the medium term and gives us some good playable stuff.   B)

#212
CaptBurn

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Wow. That was a long post. I'm so proud of myself, but I apologize to all of you... Had no idea I ranted for so long!

#213
slikster

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marlowwe wrote...
In any event if the company is having financial difficulties it shouldn't be passing costs over to the consumer - it should follow a better business model or restructure itself...

As in, dropping unprofitable ventures or redirecting resources to more profitable ones.  And, you forget that comsumers pay the bills.  I'm not getting the socialist utopia arguement in a capitalistic reality.

...where DLC does not make up the majority of after-release revenue.

As oppossed to no after-release revenue.

That's why we're here and that's what we want to chage because THAT is what is going to not guarantee a better game for everyanyone.

Fixed that for you.

The only thing you'll contribute to is more paid DLC. If whoever is in charge of future projects sees that DLC will net a better profit than expansion packs at the expense of worse gamplay...they're going to go with DLC since people like you will buy it willingly.

I have more faith in the people at Bioware than you do, it seems.  Maybe that's a fault of mine.

#214
TomBrokaw

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If DLC deserves to die it will die.  If people buy it and enough people don't feel as if they get enough value then people will stop buying it.  It will die.  If DLC detracts from the quality of games proper and value suffers there as well, people will stop buying video games and this industry will die.  It's not oil, it won't survive without providing appropriate value.  And the market determines appropriate value, not some nerd in his mom's basement (well he determines his minute portion).

In any case then, justice will be brought to bear.  If you think DLC deserves to die, then just wait, it will.  If it doesn't then you are WRONG. 

There is no need to whine.

#215
VanDraegon

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Lowlander wrote...

Modules were equivalent to a full blown expansion, not short crappy DLC, A full complete new adventure story usually taking multiple days of playthrough. A module would be more like "Hordes of the Underdark" for NWN, than the 1 hour DLC nonsense.



Are you aseriously trying to compare a written module for a pen and paper table top game to content created for a very technically advanced computer game? Seriously?

#216
Guest_Lowlander_*

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TomBrokaw wrote...
If DLC deserves to die it will die.  If people buy it and enough people don't feel as if they get enough value then people will stop buying it. 


That is nonsense. Quality has nothing to do with survival.

Witness "reality" TV and walmart.

DLC is easy money and it will likely survive for that reason alone.  That doen't make it good, doesn't make it right, doesn't make it quality.

It is not a step in the right direction for consumers. But it is a step in the right direction for EA coffers.

Modifié par Lowlander, 20 novembre 2009 - 01:58 .


#217
Wolvens5k

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I don't mind it at all. Getting more and more content after a company launched a product that I love is fabulous. I think back to all the previous games that just felt too short and it just makes me sad. I hope they keep creating new content for years to come, and then maybe do a dragons age 2. It's been a very long time since I have played a game of this caliber (basically since Balders gate). So I'm going to relish it as long as I can. If you don't want it, don't buy it. Simple huh?



Considering the amount of money EA has been losing lately and all the job layofffs, the fact that they are not just releasing a product and forgetting about it is great. Considering just how cheap it is, and no one is getting forced to buy this is just strange. They released the game and I'm sure they will continue to do some more bug fixes. I see very little difference between this and expansions except that we get access right away, versus waiting a year for a $60.00 expansion.

#218
CaptBurn

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In reality, I blame Guitar Hero and Rockband. Seriously. Those games have about 50000000 DLC's each (about .99 each for the songs... some are more). It's disgusting, yet, no one every whines about it on those... iTunes already trained them to pay .99 for music!

#219
metal_dawn

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Lowlander wrote...

TomBrokaw wrote...
If DLC deserves to die it will die.  If people buy it and enough people don't feel as if they get enough value then people will stop buying it. 


That is nonsense. Quality has nothing to do with survival.

Witness "reality" TV and walmart.

DLC is easy money and it will likely survive for that reason alone.  That doen't make it good, doesn't make it right, doesn't make it quality.

It is not a step in the right direction for consumers. But it is a step in the right direction for EA coffers.


. . .   and if the EA coffers run dry? What happens then? No more BIOWARE, no more Dragon Age... FFS.

People have this ****ing illusion that game companies are money making machines. Seriously, w/ all the flops coming out of EA studios the last year and a bit it's surprising they're not in financial trouble. Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Brutal Legend, all of these games have underperformed, and when a game literally costs millions to make, then millions more to market a couple commercial failures can mean a lot of money.

  If you want a game studio that is willing to put out these "risky" titles, that MAY hit or MAY miss, they have to have some sort of other revenue stream to balance out those risks.  

#220
VanDraegon

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KalDurenik wrote...
  But the fact is they wont make a DLC that is 5 hours long and it add a combat log and a completly new feature allowing you to swim and jump!



lol, you just love to pull crap that has no basis in any kind of reality from your backside, dont ya?

#221
Aether99

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I dont see how that post had much food for anything.  It gave no compelling alternative viewpoint.

But for me I hate DLC for a completly different reason then most.  I like expansions, a physical component to my purchase (disc) that I hold in my hands.  Having to shell out money for some data to install on my harddrive would be fine, if they mailed me a disc with what I payed for. 

But it seems the way of the world thinks DLC is a good idea, and I am but a single fish in the relentless river that is life...

#222
Guest_Lowlander_*

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metal_dawn wrote...
. . .   and if the EA coffers run dry? What happens then?


I will cheer and dance a jig! :D

Seriously EA is the gaming industry problem, they have destroyed just about every thing they touch. It was a sad day when they bought Bioware.

All they know how to do is turn out 17 sequels to Madden and figure out new ways to screw over customers.

#223
Akka le Vil

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CaptBurn wrote...


Without DLC there wouldn't be any expansions.

Yeah, right, you'd wonder how they could make expansion without DLC in the past :?
There will be expansion if people don't buy DLC and buy expansion.
There will be DLC if people are dumb enough to pay a lot for little content.

Of course, seeing the blind fanboy/consumerist reactions on this board, I'm quite afraid that the second option will be the one that will succeed, but that's only due to consumer stupidity, nothing else.

If DLC deserves to die it will die.  If people buy it and enough people
don't feel as if they get enough value then people will stop buying
it.  It will die.  If DLC detracts from the quality of games proper and
value suffers there as well, people will stop buying video games and
this industry will die.

That's wishful thinking. DLC won't die if they deserve to, they'll die if people get they brain into motion. Which isn't likely to happen.
If market shares were linked to quality, most of the blockbuster and half of the successful games would never have made it. It's not because DLC cause a drop in quality of the game that they will die. They can totally makes quality drop and still succeed.

Wolvens5k wrote...

I don't mind it at all. Getting more
and more content after a company launched a product that I love is
fabulous. I think back to all the previous games that just felt too
short and it just makes me sad.

Because DLC will give an incentive to make longer game ? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]
/facepalm

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .


#224
Auraad

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Of course, you can be for or against anything.

It's a given: if companies don't charge for their products they will run out of business. And a second fact: the customers (the players) decide what they spend their money for and if a product is worth it's money.

However, the real problem is the shareholder value ... through that companies are *forced* to generate more revenue for their products *even if the product is not worth its money* ... think about it. So the companies have all new ideas how to shove this useless crap up our a**es - with things like DLC etc. being one, new marketing stragegies (twitter, youtube, "send this a friend") another.

And ... the more and more uncritical customer buys and spends his money and eventually himself runs out of business because of millions of debts ... (this, of course, is a whole new story all together)

#225
romankalik

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Lowlander wrote...

metal_dawn wrote...
. . .   and if the EA coffers run dry? What happens then?


I will cheer and dance a jig! :D

Seriously EA is the gaming industry problem, they have destroyed just about every thing they touch. It was a sad day when they bought Bioware.

All they know how to do is turn out 17 sequels to Madden and figure out new ways to screw over customers.


Had you said this two years ago, I would have agreed. And yet I'm looking at how EA isn't mismanaging its newly-owned development houses, how it isn't destroying them, and is instead letting the stronger ones (like Bioware) do pretty much whatever they want, which has had interesting results - Mirror's Edge, Dead Space, and Dragon Age, to name a few. The old EA would have run companies like Bioware, Visceral Games, Pandemic and so on to the ground.

And yes, I do now that EA have laid off Pandemic - from all I've read on it so far, including from Pandemic's own former employees, this was largely due to mismanagement at the Pandemic Studios level, not the EA level.

And of course, my personal estimate for EA went way up when they sued the trademark troll, EDGE Games owner
Tim Langdell, a man who had been profiting from suing various game developers, many too small to mount up a proper legal defence. EA's suit to revoke all of Langdell's trademarks (read it here, very fun read) was very surprising to me.

Then it started to dawn on me that EA hasn't been all that evil lately, even though their advertising department is still rather lame. It may very well be that they've managed to learn from past mistakes.